Just Can't Get This Pig Running

[WinginEngineer]

I may have missed it, but have you replaced your plugs and wires. Have the plugs gap been checked? Not to say you haven't checked this, but given what you have said the engine should fire. Very perplexing.

Very very perplexing, which is why i'm digging for suggestions of what i have to be missing.

To your question:
- Distributor is orignal
- Cap and rotor are new
- Points are new and set to 0.019" gap
- Plug wires are new 7mm set
- Plugs are new AC Delco copper plugs maually gapped at 0.030"
- Ignition coil is new "standard performance" aftermarket
- Balast resistor is original, but ohmed out clean. I don't remember the resistance from 2 years ago, but I remember it checked out.
- Coil is confirmed supply of 12 VDC at start up and 7 VDC at "running"

[61SuperMonza]

Huh, need to give it some more thought. If I think of anything I will let you know.

[61SuperMonza]

The only thing I would say off the top is the dist. Bushing is bad and vastly effecting the timing.

[64powerglide]

What's making you think the valve is open when it fires?

Earlier you said you had a fire, popped back through the carb.. Set the distributor with the rotor pointing to the number one position on the cap with the timing mark at 0, if it's on the compression stroke it will run if the cam is correct.

[61SuperMonza]

Another thought I had is that the in carb filters could be clogged or possibly installed backwards. This could be an issue. I'm sure you know this,just trying to hash this out.

[WinginEngineer]

Jeff, mine's close to that. Just my #1 starts at a different position. Logic says that shouldn't be a problem, but attempting full disclosure... below is what mine is:

The popping back gets me too. But I know I have compression (IE sealed valves) and I know my spark is on the compression stroke.

Why set to TDC though? Seems 8 BTDC would run better than zero?

Super Monza, don't assume that I know ANYTHING

I've also attached a rough doodle of how my fuel filters are installed below:

[RobErnst]

My 65 95 PG was having a similar issue. It was rebuilt 20 or so years ago before I was given it from another club member.

We pulled the engine back out to check the cam vs crank timing but everything was lined up.

After installing engine back in the car, no fire. Valves all adjusted cold not running manually and it turned over easier with a wrench on the harmonic balancer but still no fire. Before we had taken it out, it was running about 140 degrees of advance with the distributor 180 degrees out from where it should be. When we had everything out, we verified that the distributor was pointing to 1 when 1 was on the compression stroke. Still couldn't get it to start. Finally moved plug wires 180 degrees (easier than moving the distributor for a test) and it fired right up. Idles great, chokes pull off on their own, covering either carb stalls engine. Removing plug wires one at a time all affect the engine.

It's RUNNING now (have to put the rear tires back on and get it off the jack stands to drive to see if it has any power) so I'll have an update tomorrow.

Thanks for letting me add to your thread.

[WinginEngineer]

Rob, you're tripping me out. How does it run setting the wires 180 out if you confirmed it was set on the compression stroke?

[64powerglide]

So in reality your dist. is about 2 teeth off. Number one on the cap is to the left of the hold down screw, I learned that 60 plus years ago & if anyone has to work on my car they know where number one plug is because that's the way the factory makes them. You guys who move the plug wires around instead of setting it up like it's been done for over 100 years are just making a mess for the next guy who gets your car. They go to do a tune up & say what the hell. Start the engine at TDC on 0 then put a timing light on & set it where it runs the best. Sounds like your cam might be the culprit if it won't start. Hopefully you can get it to fire up so you don't have the get into the cam & find out that wasn't it.

[bbodie52]

So you are saying that the distributor was inserted 180 degrees out — pointing to cylinder number 1 on the cap when the engine had number 1 on the EXHAUST STROKE! You corrected this by rotating the wires. It could also have been corrected by having the rotor pointing to number 1 on the cap, pulling the distributor, and then turning the crankshaft one full rotation back to zero — number one on the COMPRESSION STROKE WITH BOTH VALVES CLOSED — and then re-inserting the distributor with the rotor still pointing to cylinder number 1 on the distributor cap.

It is a shame you had to go through all of the work involved with pulling the engine to confirm the cam timing, only to discover that the problem was an incorrectly inserted/timed distributor. But it is great to hear that it is finally running well!

With excellent cylinder compression, fuel in the carburetors, confirmed spark with good ignition action, it almost had to be a timing problem. Glad it is fixed!!!

[WinginEngineer]

Ok, so now I'm entering the the realm of extreme self doubt. Particularly after Rob's post.

Here's what I'm gonna do: I'm gonna get back down to my car, get my scope out, and record video of everything I'm seeing in the combustion chamber. Then I'm gonna take pictures of everything. Then last I'm gonna take a video with sound of me trying to crank it. I'll post all that up here and let the experts tear me apart (i hope).

It just can't be this hard. Air + fuel + pressure + spark = bang. It absolutely has to. So I just have to assume I'm a total idiot and bring you guys into my garage so you can see what I see.

Any special requests of what ya'll want pictures/videos of? Probably won't get to it 'til saturday since I have to be responsible and work this week, but I think this is best. Just because I say the timing and valve cycles are right don't mean they are...

[bbodie52]

» Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:13 pm

You should first make sure your timing is correct. In my photo I show you top dead center on compression stroke & the position of the distributor cap. When you turn the engine over with a 3/4 inch wrench you bring it around counter clockwise & line up the timing mark on the lower pulley with 0 on the timing marks on the block. Remove the cap, the rotor should be pointing to the number one plug position on the cap. If it's pointing towards the front of the car turn in one more revolution by hand & you should have it pointing to the number one plug on compression stroke. Note the position of the distributor cap. Number one position should be the first one left of the cap screw. When you have this correct start the engine & set the timing. Left click photo's to enlarge. Your RPM's will be higher in neutral & when you put it in drive it slows way down. You want 500 RPM in drive or as low as you can get it without stalling. NOTE MY VACUUM ADVANCE, it's further right than yours & in a better position to adjust the timing

With the distributor oriented like it is in the above pictures, and the rotor pointing as shown, and the crankshaft pulley aligned with the zero timing mark, you should be on the COMPRESSION STROKE (both valves closed on cylinder number one — no tension on the rocker arms on number one. If you find the exhaust valve open on number one cylinder, your distributor is inserted 180 degrees out with the piston at Top Dead Center (TDC) on the EXHAUST STROKE. This is corrected by removing the distributor, manually turning the crankshaft pulley one full turn to put the piston back at TDC, but this time on the COMPRESSION STROKE with both valves closed. Then the distributor is reinserted with the same orientation shown in the pictures. Static timing cnan be set by moving the timing mark on the pulley to the desired timing setting. Then adjust the distributor base by turning the base so that the points just open. Secure the distributor. This should be very close to te correct timing when it is confirmed with the engine running using a timing light.



If you have reason to doubt the accuracy of the timing mark on the pulley, there is a procedure shown in the video below for using a piston stop tool in place of the spark plug in the number one cylinder. As shown in the video, the piston stop tool causes the top of the piston to contact the tool and prevent the engine from being rotated any further. At this point a mark is placed on the pulley showing the location where the piston stop tool causes the engine to stop rotating. (Never use the starter motor to rotate the engine when doing this procedure. You do not want the starter motor ramming the piston with a lot of force into the stop tool!)



Crane Piston Stop Tools 99412-1

Crane Cams piston stop
Summit RacingSummit Racing Verified Purchase

CRN-99412-1
This tool is necessary to calculate exact TDC. This is the best one I've used, perfect length, machined nicely, all brass and has a air bleed hole too. Without the bleed hole you can find TDC but you have to fight compression and triple check the piston has not moved. This tool makes it easy. Arrived at my door lightning fast too.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99412-1

Once you have a mark on the pulley showing the location where the zero mark on the scale lines up with the pulley, you then rotate the engine backwards until the piston again comes into contact with the stop tool. A second mark is placed on the pulley to show this location. The actual top dead center position is one half of the distance between the first mark and the second mark. This should coincide with the pulley mark that was made at the factory.

The mark on the pulley outer rim should line up with the location of the Woodruff key on the crankshaft. The only reason I can conceive of where the timing mark would not be accurate with a standard pulley would be if the Woodruff key was missing, which would allow the pulley to slip and rotate on the crankshaft. A broken or missing Woodruff key would not secure the crankshaft pulley in the correct location. I have never seen an engine with a missing or broken Woodruff key, but I suppose with the aging Corvair engines and the many people who will work on them over the years, it might be possible that the Woodruff key was missing when the engine was assembled. Any slippage in the pulley position where it is not properly indexed on the crankshaft could cause a timing mark inaccuracy.

Locating Top Dead Center (TDC)

By Speedway Motors
Created 2014

Locating Top Dead Center is important. Most engines will come with either a Timing Mark or a Timing Tab on them; however it is always a good idea to verify this to be certain. Whether it is to replace a distributor, get spark plug wires in the correct orientation, or install a new camshaft, having the rotating assembly on TDC is crucial. While there are several ways to locate TDC, this article will highlight a couple of the more commonly used methods.

Thumb Method
The first method is often referred to as the thumb method. Remove the #1 spark plug and place your thumb over the hole. Rotate the crankshaft with a breaker bar and the appropriate socket. As you approach TDC there will be an increase in pressure that will push your thumb off of the port. Once this happens you can look in the spark plug hole and move the crankshaft back and forth to get as close as possible to TDC. This will get you within about 15 degrees of TDC; close enough for a distributor or spark plug wires, but not close enough for that new camshaft.

TDC Indicator Method

A second and more accurate way to locate TDC is by using a Top Dead Center Indicator. Screw the indicator into the #1 spark plug hole by hand, and then slowly rotate the crankshaft by hand until the piston come up against the stop. Mark your balancer with a marker, and then slowly rotate the crankshaft by hand in the opposite direction until you come up against the stop again. Mark your balancer again. Measure the distance between the two marks and divide by 2. This is your TDC. Once you’ve found your true TDC why not mark it with a Timing Tape? Speedway Motors offers an MSD Timing Tape with 8 different balancer tapes, so you’re almost certain to find the one you need!

Top Dead Center Indicator
If the cylinder heads are off you can use a similar approach as the Stop Method described above. You simply bolt a strap across the face of the block, and rotate your crankshaft until piston 1 comes up against the strap. Mark that spot, then rotate the crankshaft in the other direction until it again comes up against the strap. Mark that spot and split the difference.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tech/loca ... enter.html

[66vairguy]

Rob's 180 degree out is actually a common error. A FOUR STROKE engine move the piston to TDC TWICE for each time the distributor fires that cylinder. Or the distributor turns at HALF THE SPEED THE ENGINE DOES. So with the piston is TDC between exhaust and intake stroke and TDC between compression and ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Obviously you want the distributor to fire the cylinder at TDC between compression and ignition of the air/fuel mixture. But YOU CAN install the distributor at TDC between exhaust and intake stroke - or as it's called "180 degrees out". Needless to say the engine won't run if this is done.

[64powerglide]

Brad, the guy who said his was 180 off was a different guy not Wingin, someone named Rob.

[1949chevy]

1. Remove the dist cap, turn engine over and leave the rotor pointing about an inch or so before where your #1 plug wire is located in the distributor, #1 cylinder is closest to you on R side as you face the engine.
2. Remove #1 plug
3. Wad up a small piece of newspaper like a spitball and put it in #1 plug hole...be sure its super tight
4. Turn engine with a 3/4 inch wrench on the balancer toward #1 plug wire on the distributor
5. When you hear the loud pop and the newspaper is not to be found anywhere and all the neighbors come to see who was shot...lol, that is the compression stroke. Stop turning the engine.
5A. The balancer mark should be close to zero or real close to it now
6. The rotor should be pointed at #1 plug wire in the distributor if you are okay otherwise
7. If it is not pointing to #1, make that dist hole the new number 1 where the rotor is pointing, and put the rest of the wires in correct firing order, I will not say at this point how to re-set the dist to keep things simple and if this is the problem and fixes it, and you get rolling hopefuly. It does not matter which hole in the dist cap is #1 as long as you just did what I said to do.

Jimmy in NC

[1949chevy]

Just some info....One day my friend was putting new STANDARD BLUE STREAK points, the condenser built in, in his 64 Chevy 409....He called me and said can you come over to see what I did wrong...the car will NOT START. He put the old worn out points back in and it fired right up. I went over and put the new points in, not an easy task on a big Impala 409 with two-4 barrels, it would not start. We had bought 2 sets and I installed the 2nd new set, it did NOT START. I installed the old points...started right up. We took the 2 new sets back, went to NAPA and bought Echlin ( made by Standard???) and I just put them in a couple of weeks ago...started right up.

Lesson learned...buy the best there is, it just may not work at all. I had to see and install these points, otherwise would have been hard for me to believe my eyes and ears that two BRAND NEW BLUE STREAKS were FAULTY. I did tell my friend that maybe me telling him he installed the points backwards was not the case...lol.