Two Issues - Gas Mileage & Harmonic Balancer

[ranger372]

OK Guy's, Today I played with timing. First, I timed the engine to 20 BTDC from 24 - went for a test drive - still pinged. Timed to 22 BTDC -still pinged. Next I timed to 25 - still pinged. I then went back to the original 24 BTDC still pinged, but this is where the engine runs best.
Now comes electronic ignition. A few weeks ago I had tried the Fast XR700, to no avail, the car would not start (I now believe that the timing was so very far off = no start). This time with timing set at 24 the engine started, rechecked timing at 24 and went for a test drive - still pinged. went through the whole exercise of resetting the timing 20 then 22 then 25 and back to 24 with the best result (minor ping). Perhaps an Octane Booster? (I am using no alcohol premium 91 octane). Are there any suggestions on type of octane boosters. Are there any pros or cons to the use of chemicals.

Not related Question to the group. Upon the longer test drive yesterday and the engine heating up (425* was the hottest the engine got yesterday). When stopping along the way and then restarting, the starter would act much slower then start. I am attributing this to the starter motor being hot. Am I correct and is there anything that I do about it? Starter motor is rebuilt, battery, cables and wiring are new.

Thanks,
Steve

[bbodie52]

Some reading that may suggest some ideas. The FAST XR700 or XR3000 simply eliminates points. The XR3000 runs on 12 VDC power and can handle high performance, high output, low primary resistance coils, as well as standard coils. The XR700 needs power through a ballast resistor or factory resistor wire as the electronic circuitry was designed to run on reduced voltage from a ballast resistor circuit. The XR700 electronic box may overheat if powered using full battery voltage. In any case, neither unit includes any form of knock sensor that will help to control pinging.

Turbo Tricks
http://autoxer.skiblack.com/turbo.html

More reading suggestions...
https://www.google.com/search?q=turbo+c ... e&ie=UTF-8

[Nashfan]

I think you are going to find that there's very little that can be done with the pinging problem by playing with timing. 24 degrees with the stock Turbo distributor is about all you can realistically do... that whole distributor timing scheme just doesnt work that great. It needs vacuum advance and a distributor curve that works with vacuum advance. The mechanical boost retard doesnt work that great either , as it retards the heck out of it before boost hits, now the only point that the engine is really making the power it should is when it gets to 4000 engine rpm. Easy way to much better timing is to get a Safegard from Ray Sedman, and let that handle the boost retard, and use either a 95 or 110 distributor with vacuum advance on it. Now you have lots of timing for part load, and it will run nice and cool like you were seeing when you tried 28 degrees. And when you hit the throttle, the vacuum advance goes away and now the engine is riding the rpm advance... when boost hits the Safegard will pull timing out a little at a time. Better yet, the knock sensor will catch unwanted detonation well before you can hear it, and selectively retard the timing to the individual cylinders.

A even better set-up would be to use a CB "black box" these things use your existing distributor, but make your timing completely programamble, basically giving every rpm its own vacuum advance and boost retard curve- If you do that, you will have as sophisticated a timing map as any modern boosted EFI car has. It is truly amazing what programmable timing does for our turbo engines!! The CB "black box" is a heck of a deal, at less than 300. I went programmable on my turbo in 2008, and initially, I thought I could "copy" the stock turbo timing and have it work right... I ended up having the SAME EXACT issues that you are having were the timing kept getting retarded more and more to get rid of pings. I gave up on that plan when I went down as far as 22 degrees and octane booster and no improvement. Then I got the bright idea to try adding vacuum advance... once I got that figured out, the pings and hot running went away. 42 degrees (total) is what makes those turbos real happy at around 3000-3500 rpm on the freeway, and as long as the timing is pulled the right way in the right parts of the pressure curve, no timing drop or power loss will be felt like as is the case with "normal" vacuum advance... the timing into boost can be a heck of a lot stronger than the stock turbo timing would do, and the engine REALLY likes it!!
No fake boost when doing it that way, where the boost shoots up without the power it should have until 4k and then you've already lost the race!!

[66vairguy]

Tried posting this before - but -----

I haven't seen anybody suggest checking the timing retard cannister on the distributor. If it isn't working detonation will be a major problem on a turbo.

As far as black boxes go -- Ray Sedman has been selling the Safeguard system for Corvair turbo cars for years. Most report it works well.

After years of thinking about Corvair turbo cars, I finally decided the best route is a different turbo with computer controlled wastegate, fuel injection, and ignition. Then I realized it wasn't worth the money or effort, but fun to think about.

[bbodie52]

» Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:50 am
...As far as black boxes go -- Ray Sedman has been selling the Safeguard system for Corvair turbo cars for years. Most report it works well...

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/safeguard.html

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/


http://www.american-pi.com/safeguard/safeguard2.html

The SafeGuard is a fully digital, closed loop, integrated system controlled by a Motorola Micro Processor. The SafeGuard also includes a H/O ignition amplifier and an adjustable velvet touch REV limiter - all in one self contained, compact box.

The knock retard system is beautiful. It has the ability to retard ONLY the offending cylinder(s) that cause the knock. It does not retard the baseline ignition setting on all cylinders. Only the ones that require it. This can add significant torque to an otherwise 'retarded' engine. Limited Dyno tests have shown an improvement of 15%. Actual road tests with different cars have shown a 30% improvement. With individual timing control, you will decrease your fuel consumption, lower engine temperatures and promote engine longevity. The system uses a closed-loop digital circuit, micro-processor control and a custom algorithm to identify and process knock.

The SafeGuard can be triggered by any ignition system. Stock (points), magnetic, reluctor, LED, etc. If needed, it can also drive any aftermarket system, such as MSD, Crane, Capacitive Discharge and similar units. We have found, that in most cases, this is not necessary because the SafeGuard has a built in ignition amplifier which and will output 7 amps of current. Compared to G.M.'s H.E.I system the SafeGuard boasts a 62% increase in coil output over the GM HEI system.

Included with the SafeGuard's built in ignition amplifier is a feature called active dwell control. Active dwell control is a very powerful means to add a significant increase to the output of the coil. With active dwell control the SafeGuard is constantly monitoring the coil output and actively varying the dwell for maximum coil saturation. The MSD does not have active dwell control, nor do most other ignition systems.

The built-in digital REV limiter is 'velvet touch' and is fully adjustable, on the car - you can make changes while the engine is running. No plug-in modules to buy or fall out during use.

The SafeGuard will side-step all the mumbo-jumbo of proper timing, etc. and keep your engine running at perfect performance. It installs simply between the points and the coil. Only four wires to connect the unit: two grounds, one hot lead, the points lead. One wire to connect the input from the knock sensor. That is it. A little of adjusting for sensitivity and you are set. It could not be easier. You will love it.

The SafeGuard is one integrated, fully designed package. You do not need a bunch of 'other' boxes hanging around your engine compartment. And you do not have to worry about 'compatibility' of the boxes interfacing with each other.

The investment in a SafeGuard unit is $715.00. Each unit is built to order and custom programmed for its specific application. These are built specific for Corvair installation. Please allow 3-4 weeks for building you SafeGuard. Satisfaction is fully guaranteed. Units available for other engines; please inquire.

[ranger372]

Hello,
Special, Thank You's to bbodie and nashfan for the information. I am leaning towards the Safeguard unit by J & S Electronics as a cure for my 'ping' issues. I've sent a email to J&S for recommendations, cost, etc. I've given them what I believe to be all the information they may need to make their recommendations. I must say that I am a bit intimated about wiring, adjusting, etc. my skills are limited.
Does the unit have to be mounted in a accessible location to the driver for constant adjustments or once adjusted it is good to go and can the then be hidden?
Where to optimal mount spot for the knock sensor on a Corvair?
Thank You
Steve D.

[Nashfan]

Getting your unit through Ray is a really good idea! He knows all of the ideal mounting locations, and can built the wiring harness for those locations... some of the easy spots are the "package" area behind the rear seat, on the floor under the rear seat, and under the dash, near the tunnel pan. Once the unit is dialed in, you dont need to mess with it. Ray provides all of the Corvair specific wiring instructions and can walk you through it if need be. It is really simple! I did mine in a weekend and I did it the hard way... I located the Safeguard under the dash and most of the work and time was routing the 24ft worth of wire from the Safegard out to the engine compartment. Yes there is a ideal spot for the knock sensor, as I understand it, the particular spot shown in this picture was found to be the best.Its where the little blue wire is attached next to the manifold

[ranger372]

I've spoken with Ray Sedman and have ordered the SafeGuard thru Ray. I am planning to mount the safeguard under the rear seat. The Knock sensor exactly where Nashfan did at the 3/8" bolt next to the intake manifold. Unit will take a few weeks to get to me.
Thanks,
Steve D.
'65 Corsa Conv't.

[dancorv]

How is the Safeguard performing? Any complications with installation or use?