Just Can't Get This Pig Running

[1949chevy]

Just some info....One day my friend was putting new STANDARD BLUE STREAK points, the condenser built in, in his 64 Chevy 409....He called me and said can you come over to see what I did wrong...the car will NOT START. He put the old worn out points back in and it fired right up. I went over and put the new points in, not an easy task on a big Impala 409 with two-4 barrels, it would not start. We had bought 2 sets and I installed the 2nd new set, it did NOT START. I installed the old points...started right up. We took the 2 new sets back, went to NAPA and bought Echlin ( made by Standard???) and I just put them in a couple of weeks ago...started right up.

Lesson learned...buy the best there is, it just may not work at all. I had to see and install these points, otherwise would have been hard for me to believe my eyes and ears that two BRAND NEW BLUE STREAKS were FAULTY. I did tell my friend that maybe me telling him he installed the points backwards was not the case...lol.

[joelsplace]

Are you using the starter when testing for spark? If not, maybe you have no spark while the starter is engaged?
I have run across bad new spark plugs before. Only once but it did happen.

[bbodie52]

» Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:54 pm

Are you using the starter when testing for spark? If not, maybe you have no spark while the starter is engaged?...

ON a Corvair the voltage to the ignition coil positive terminal is alwas present when the ignition key is ON. This is a reduced voltage from the ignition switch, through the ballast resistor wire, to the coil and will measure approximately 7 VDC wen the points are closed (battery voltage when the points are open).

When the starter solenoid is engaged, the reduced voltage via the resistor wire is still present, but full battery voltage (a nominal 12 VDC) is also present. On a 1962 Corvair, this is provided to the coil via a second wire (yellow) from the solenoid "R" terminal to the coil positive terminal. The lower voltage source remains present, but the higher voltage from the solenoid supersedes the lower voltage, increasing the coil output to the spark plugs to a higher spark voltage as long as the starter is engaged. The lower 7 VDC is not turned off in any way during engine cranking, so if the voltage from the solenoid to the coil was disconnected in some way, the lower runnning voltage (nominal 7 VDC) would remain to cause the engine to start and run.

1962 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Diagram

1965-1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Harness Starter Connections.jpg (80.88 KiB) Viewed 1670 times

[WinginEngineer]

Brad, you just hurt my tiny brain. I thought the 7vdc was constant to the coil as long as the ignition switch is on. Then when the starter is engaged the straight 12vdc is pumped into the coil to kick up a hotter spark for starting. Release the starter and it returns to 7vdc.

I certainly hope that's how it works cuz that's how I wired mine...

EDIT: Stupid fat fingers

[64powerglide]

Brad, you just hurt my tiny brain. I thought the 7vdc was constant to the coil as long as the ignition switch is on. Then when the starter is engaged the straight 12vdc is pumped into the coil to kick up a hotter spark for starting. Release the starter and it returns to 7vdc.

That's what Brad said.

[WinginEngineer]

Brad, you just hurt my tiny brain. I thought the 7vdc was constant to the coil as long as the ignition switch is on. Then when the starter is engaged the straight 12vdc is pumped into the coil to kick up a hotter spark for starting. Release the starter and it returns to 7vdc.

That's what Brad said.

Told ya I had a tiny brain! I re-read it and and I see now. I misread the first section the first time...

[64powerglide]

Don't feel bad, the older I get the more that happens.

[HotManInMS]

I'm just sitting here eating my tub of popcorn, waiting to see when this puppy fires.

Thanks for all the great information. I'm soaking it all in and hope I never need to use it.

:popcorn

[bbodie52]

One thing that I may not have made clear: If you measure the voltage at the coil positive terminal (with the key ON — engine not running) between that terminal and chassis ground, it will read full battery voltage (nominal 12 VDC) when the ignition points are OPEN. It will only read a nominal 7 VDC (because of the ballast resistor wire and coil primary resistance) when the ignition points are closed, and current is flowing through the ignition primary circuit, through the coil and ignition points, to ground. (Without current flowing, the resistance in the circuit has no effect and the reduced voltage cannot be measured).

When the starter solenoid is engaged, battery voltage is applied directly from the battery via the starter solenoid to the coil, effectively bypassing the resistor wire. The electrical current through the coil is no longer flowing through the resistor wire, since it has been electrically bypassed by the starter circuit. The increased current through the coil temporarily increases the coil spark output to the spark plugs to help with getting the engine to start while it is being cranked by the starter motor. Once the engine starts, the driver releases the key, the starter solenoid disengages, and the coil reverts to getting its power through the ignition switch and resistor wire to keep the engine running with reduced voltage. The points last longer and the coil runs cooler this way.

[joelsplace]

I understand how it is supposed to be. He has a strange issue from the sound of it so I was attempting to gather more info.

[VairsRule]

Maybe you hurt its feelings by calling it a pig! When I was a kid, my mother had a green '56 Ford station wagon that probably had worn rings and excessive blowby. It was always hard to start when cold. Mom would pat it the top of the dashboard and say, "Come on, green dragon, you can do it!" and it always started right up when she did that! Good ole' Mom...

[bbodie52]

Be sure to sing its praises when you get your pig running!

The little pig that could...
"I think I can, I think I can, I think I can..."

By the way it runs, you can tell that its timing and firing order are just spot on!

[WinginEngineer]

Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid

So ya'll remember when I said I was so careful to check that the timing was on the compression stroke? Yeah...… so I went to get ya'll the pictures and video and um... yeah... um....

Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid

It WAS in fact 180 degrees out. Hasn't started yet, but it's coughin' real good. If I hadn't left the key on last weekend I'd have enough battery to push it all the way. Oh well, give it the night to charge and reply back with the results tomorrow or the next day.

Stupid Stupid Stupid

[HotManInMS]

Lol. Dont you hate it when you start to do the 'I'll show them' video and you're wrong?

[joelsplace]

I've done it...

[bbodie52]

» Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:05 pm

So ya'll remember when I said I was so careful to check that the timing was on the compression stroke? Yeah...… so I went to get ya'll the pictures and video and um... yeah... um....

Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid Stupid

It WAS in fact 180 degrees out. Hasn't started yet, but it's coughin' real good. If I hadn't left the key on last weekend I'd have enough battery to push it all the way. Oh well, give it the night to charge and reply back with the results tomorrow or the next day.

Stupid Stupid Stupid

I think most of us have stumbled like that at some point in our Corvair lives.

If you left the ignition key on for a lengthy period, the ignition coil may have been damaged. If the points happened to have been closed with the key ON, current would have been flowing continuously through the coil primary winding. This can cause a significant heat buildup in the coil. Sometimes the heat buildup will cause the housing to burst, or the primary winding may be damaged by the heat. So even if you discovered one fault with the distributor timing, leaving the key ON might have created another problem if the coil was damaged.

The ballast resistor wire in the wiring harness can also be damaged by heat buildup, if leaving the key on left battery current flowing through the primary circuit for hours. Melted insulation or discolored insulation is a common sign of an overheated wire.