'62 Corvair seems to turn over hard

[1226 bravo]

I have owned and driven this car for a year now, always started and ran good. Last time I drove it I drove it 150 miles to a car show where somebody told me the rear motor mount should be replaced. On further inspection, realized the front transmission mounts looked bad and also found a broken bolt in the front transmission mount bracket.
I dropped the engine trans axle from the car to remove broken bolt and replaced mounts from Clark's.
When I put the engine back in the car and tried to start, it seemed to turn over hard and noisy, checked battery and tried a known good battery, all connections, everything seemed ok except would hardly roll over. Decided to rebuild starter with a deluxe rebuilt kit from Clark's with new Bendix, solenoid, shift lever, brushes, etc. Tested starter on the bench with a battery, bendix moved in and out as it should. When installed on the car, the starter engaged, turned car slowly, but when I turned ignition off start or off, the starter continued to run, had to pull battery cable.
The starter evidently disengaged now because now I could reconnect battery cable and it was ok until I tried to start again and it would hang up again. Removed all 6 spark plugs to relieve some compression, checked ring gear thru starter opening for damaged ring gear. Teeth looked a little worn, but welds and everything I could see looked ok. Decided to take the new bendix out of starter and put old one back in thinking the new gear was hanging up on the ring gear. With plugs removed, starter seemed to work ok, engaging and disengaging, although it turned over faster it still seemed to turn slower and harder than I would expect. Installed the plugs, tried starting, starter would not disengage, had to disconnect battery cable, turned over very slowly. After battery cable disconnected, starter did disengage. Sorry for the long post, I'm at a loss and any help would be appreciated. Bud

[junkman]

I would be inclined to checking the flywheel. If it is original, and has never been replaced, then the rivets that hold the individual parts together, have worn enough to cause the ring gear to be off center. This will cause it to bind on the starter Bendix gear. If it is severely out of balance, it can break the starter nose cone, causing you more expense. I would pull the drivetrain, and split the transmission from the engine, and install a rebuilt flywheel, or at least check it. This cannot be done accurately with out removing the flywheel from the engine.
If it didn't have the Bendix gear problem, then I would be inclined to thinking that the timing was too far advanced, but the binding Bendix gear precludes this as the problem.

[bbodie52]

How is your battery ground cable connected to the car?

The thick negative cable should be bolted directly to the engine -- usually with a bolt securing the generator/alternator support bracket. A second, smaller ground wire (about 10 gauge) needs to be bolted to the car chassis. On EM Corvairs, it was common to see a flat, braided ground cable that was daisy-chained from the battery negative terminal to a stud protruding from the engine compartment perimeter frame, and then on to a bolt on the engine itself, near the generator.

Because of the way that the engine and transaxle are mounted -- suspended by three rubber mounts from the car chassis -- the powertrain is both physically and electrically isolated from the car chassis. Sometimes a replacement ground cable is installed, and the installer mistakenly bolts the cable directly to the car frame, believing that is all that is needed. Such a connection leaves the powertrain electrically isolated -- with the charging system, ignition system, warning light switches, AND THE STARTER having to search for a ground return path to the battery negative terminal. Under these circumstances, the only metal path between the engine components to ground may be things like the throttle and clutch linkage. The starter motor draws more electrical current than any other electrical component in the car. That is why it has a thick 6 gauge cable between the battery positive terminal and the starter solenoid. The starter motor itself is grounded through its frame to the engine. But the engine also has to have a ground return path to the battery negative terminal that is the equivalent to the positive cable. If the negative cable is not bolted securely to the engine, the electrical power available to the starter motor will be significantly reduced.

All other car electrical components receive their power via the smaller gauge wire connected via the voltage regulator. The chassis ground wire complements this positive wire to provide a chassis ground return path.

The fact that your starter problem coincides with the removal and reinstallation of the powertrain and the replacement of the powertrain rubber mounts may indicate that the powertrain became electrically isolated at that time. I would suggest checking your engine ground, and if it is incorrectly configured, make the necessary corrections to ensure an adequate ground for both the chassis and the engine.

[1226 bravo]

Thanks for the tip, I did install another ground from the battery negative to the generator bolt bracket on the engine. Starter will still not disengage until I disconnect the battery. Another question, should you be able to turn the engine over by turning the lower pulley by the oil filter? I can not budge it by hand, I can turn it by putting a 3/8 drive socket on the pulley bolt using a ratchet handle. Turns very hard. I'm guessing there is so much pressure on the starter and ring gear that they can't disengage until I pull the power to the starter. The engine doesn't want to fire either when it always has before. I can see fuel from the accelerator pumps on the carbs when I operate the throttle, so I think there is fuel available. I did check for spark on one plug, looked ok, don't know about timing. Bud

[bbodie52]

As you can see in the diagram above, battery power is used to energize the solenoid and engage the drive gear with the large ring gear on the clutch pressure plate or the torque converter. BATTERY POWER IS NOT USED TO RETURN THE SOLENOID TO NEUTRAL AND TO DISENGAGE THE STARTER DRIVE GEAR FROM THE RING GEAR. When power is cut form the solenoid by releasing the key, the spring is the only force returning the gear to the disengaged position.

Improving the battery to engine ground connection could increase the starter motor's ability to rotate the engine, but it would do nothing to cause the solenoid ot disengage. And as long as the two gears are jammed together, the high-current internal switch contacts would be held together, which would continue to apply battery power to the motor.

The shift lever or some other internal part within the solenoid and starter mechanism is somehow being stuck together once they are engaged. You will need to repair or replace the starter/solenoid or find the cause to correct this fault.

With the spark plugs removed it should be relatively easy to manually turn the crankshaft pulley with a wrench. With the spark plugs installed you still would have more resistance as you rotated the crankshaft and pistons against the compression stroke when the valves closed.

[64powerglide]

If that long drive overheated the starter the armature might be bad. The starter might be drawing to much juice & not giving enough to the points & plugs to start it. Can you push start it? I have a 28 Dodge that turned over slow for over 30 years so last year I finally had the starter rebuilt & it fires right up now after $238.00 but well worth it. I put a new solenoid, bendix gear & motor mounts in my 64 this spring & have not had a problem so if I were you I wouldn't play the LOTTO. You should get that starter checked for a short in the armature though. Good Luck.

[terribleted]

Are you sure the battery is good and strong? A week battery can cause these symptoms. Not just 12V but load tests ok as well?

[1226 bravo]

I am happy to report that my corvair is starting and running well. Evidently the distributor was turned at some point, throwing the timing way off, which I've been told makes the engine not turn over as easy. I did have to play with the fuel pump and it took a bit to get the fuel running to the carburetors. The starter is now disengaging both when engine starts and even if you just bump it over. Still need to get timing light and check the timing. Thanks all for the replies. Bud

[terribleted]

I am happy to report that my corvair is starting and running well. Evidently the distributor was turned at some point, throwing the timing way off, which I've been told makes the engine not turn over as easy. I did have to play with the fuel pump and it took a bit to get the fuel running to the carburetors. The starter is now disengaging both when engine starts and even if you just bump it over. Still need to get timing light and check the timing. Thanks all for the replies. Bud

Ahhh The timing WAY to far advanced ugh ugh ugh starter noise. So far advanced that when it tries to fire it pushes the engine backwards. Nice you found it!!

[junkman]

............If it didn't have the Bendix gear problem, then I would be inclined to thinking that the timing was too far advanced, but the binding Bendix gear precludes this as the problem.

I have to admit that in all the years that I have been turning wrenches, I have never experienced a situation where the starter would bind up and not disengage as a result of the timing being out of adjustment. I will have to experiment on my own car to see if I can replicate this condition. Glad to know that you have fixed the problem without having to remove the drivetrain.
Junk...