Fully independent suspension update to early models

[Mark K]

I am sure that this has probably been asked before... But Just how difficult is it to modify an early Corvair to the later 65 on up fully Independent suspension? Can the brackets be cut out and welded into the earlier body? The only reason I would want to is due to the fact that they discontinued the Lakewood wagon. I have always wanted one... What changes if any were made to the front suspension?

Thanks in advance!

Mark

[bbodie52]

Welcome Mark, to the Corvair Forum!

This has been discussed before. Here is something I posted earlier on this subject...

Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:31 pm

...Has anyone here successfully done an Independent rear suspension (IRS) conversion for a 1st gen Corvair?

The rear suspension design used in the mid-1960's Corvette Stingray was adapted to fit the 1965-1969 Corvair, to replace the somewhat controversial swing axle design that was originally copied from the Volkswagen beetle in the 1960-1964 Corvair. The Corvette utilized a transverse leaf spring (I assume because of the fiberglass body), while the Corvair used a similar design but supported the car with coil springs.

Here is a link to a Corvair Forum thread that shows an Early Model Corvair that has been modified to install a late model Corvair rear suspension. But this is not a common or simple modification!

viewtopic.php?f=176&t=349

You can see that the rear suspension mounting was entirely different in the late model Corvair. The differential was also changed to permit suspension components to attach to the bottom of the differential, and to support the half shaft design in place of the older swing-axle design. Also, late models used larger GM intermediate platform (Chevelle, Tempest, etc.) brakes.

The front suspension on Corvair passenger cars, including the Lakewood station wagon, remained remarkably similar in all model years through 1969. The drum brakes increased in size in 1965, and the left spindle was drilled to add a drive cable for the speedometer instead of the previously used lengthy cable connected to the transaxle (through the 1964 model year). The turbo Spyder received the addition of a standard front sway bar in 1962, with a sway bar optional in other models until 1964, when it became standard on all Corvairs. Coil spring rates and sway bar thicknesses changed a bit in different model years and with different body styles.

Some variations and enhancements are discussed in the following website discussions...

Dialing in the suspension
http://autoxer.skiblack.com/setup.html

Corvair Brakes
http://autoxer.skiblack.com/brakes.html

This book may be of some help in your quest for performance upgrades and modifications...

In addition to the factory shop manual, this book contains a great deal of performance information about the Corvair. As a teenager I read the earlier version of this book in 1970 and found it to be very valuable and informative. It is a personal favorite.
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Corv ... +to+hotrod

[Deadwolf]

Dobbertin makes a kit to adapt C6 corvette IRS to any car. I wonder how much work would be involved in adapting it to bolt up to the corvair power pack and body mounting locations? Would make a very interesting project.

[Allan Lacki]

"But Just how difficult is it to modify an early Corvair to the later 65 on up fully Independent suspension?"

Answer: Extremely difficult. Major surgery required to fabricate all the pickup points for the late-series trailing arms, springs and shocks, not to mention swapping out the diff. Much metal work and welding required. This is no bolt-on / weekend job.

Enjoy your swing axles. If you're concerned about tuck under, install the springs and transverse leaf from a '64.

[Deadwolf]

The only way to get tuck under would be a failure of the shock. If it is a concern you could install a cable hard stop strap also. Really though to get tuck under would be really difficult considering when you go around a turn the natural shift of weight is going to cause the outside tire to see more weight and thus squat down more. If your in a full out slide the odds are any tuck under event that you stop from happening would result in a roll over.

[66vairguy]

It is fun to "imagine", but the fact is putting the LM rear suspension into an EM wagon would require a lot of money and some engineering skills. Any IRS will NOT work well if it isn't engineered correctly. Mercedes made swing axles work rather well. So the "type" is not as important as the "how".

Years ago a fellow modified his EM wagon and it did well at autocross events (yes a wagon). He used a good approach that did not require any major revisions. He used the 1964 rear suspension with the leaf spring. Often called a "camber compensator" it was actually more sophisticated then the aftermarket camber compensator kits sold for the EM Corvair like bars, straps, cables, etc.

Up front he used the bolt-in LM suspension (bigger sway bar than 64 with more robust brackets), BUT to keep the same EM track and 4-lug wheels front and rear he used the EM spindle hubs installed into the the LM suspension arms. LM front suspension member bolts right in most EM's (there may be an issue with the 60's, but I'm not sure).

Yes you could use the LM front suspension with the LM spindles and bigger drum brakes, but it pushes the wheel a little closer to the the fender lip!! Also you would have to drill the rear axle for 5 lugs.

And finally moving a little more weight up front is good. On my LM's I moved the spare and battery up to the front trunk. It's a minor improvement, but is noticeable.

[61SuperMonza]

This topic comes up quite regularly with new EM owners and potential buyers. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE SWING ARM SETUP. The BS that Nader was slinging is still hanging over its head.
I would get some time behind the wheel of an EM before any judgment. I have never had my 61 bite me. It handles very well and is a blast to drive.
The key is having all the suspension in good working order and a proper alignment. The only mods I have done are performance dampers(KONI),front bar and quick steering arms, and the front caster set 4 degrees+.
As we all know tire pressures need to be correctly maintained as well.
I will finish with this, if you have never driven a rear engine car do some research on the driving dynamics so you know what to expect and how to use this to your advantage.
WHEN IN DOUBT MAKE IT SHOUT

[66vairguy]

This topic comes up quite regularly with new EM owners and potential buyers. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE SWING ARM SETUP. The BS that Nader was slinging is still hanging over its head.
I would get some time behind the wheel of an EM before any judgment. I have never had my 61 bite me. It handles very well and is a blast to drive.
The key is having all the suspension in good working order and a proper alignment. The only mods I have done are performance dampers(KONI),front bar and quick steering arms, and the front caster set 4 degrees+.
As we all know tire pressures need to be correctly maintained as well.
I will finish with this, if you have never driven a rear engine car do some research on the driving dynamics so you know what to expect and how to use this to your advantage.
WHEN IN DOUBT MAKE IT SHOUT

Well yes, BUT ----- there is little doubt GM's "cheap" fix to save money by NOT using a front sway bar and using low front tire pressure to make the front end understeer before the back end came loose was a disaster. Well documented that gas station jockeys put the same pressure in front and rear tires (on all cars). Even the Chevrolet engineers argued against deleting the front sway bar on the 60's to "save money".

When GM got the numbers on how much less it cost Ford to build the Falcon vs. the Corvair they ordered cost cuts to the Corvair. Then they ordered up the Chevy II to fight the Falcon. What saved the Corvair was the shift to a "sporty" car with the Monza that sold for considerable more than a Falcon or bare bones Chevy II. Suddenly the Corvair made money and got a lot of improvements, although many were options.

[Mark K]

Sorry, I have been out a few days due to the flu. WOW what a great response from the group! I am not only impressed but gratefull for the information. I have a new question now due to the responses. I have owned many Fiero's not more than a dozen at any given time. Does anyone have any experience driving them compared to the late Model Corvair? How do they compare? This is my only experience with a rear engine car. I haven't ridden in a Corvair since a child with my uncle. I don't expect a Corvair to handle as well. Am I wrong? But the thought of a good looking good handling wagon intrigues me! How difficult is it to find the 1964 rear suspension set up?

Thanks again!

[66vairguy]

Bottom line ---- most new cars handle better than ANY mass produced 1960's car in my humble opinion. That should not keep you from buying an older car as long as you drive it within it's design limits. Part of the "fun" is dealing with the idiosyncrasies of an old car. I run into folks who want to make a Corvair perform like a modern Porsche and "dreaming" is fun, but the when you look at the costs and revamping the "personality" of the car one might as well just go buy a nice five year old Porsche and save some money --- just my opinion and feel free to disregard.

BTW - Don't forget TIRES make a huge difference in handling. Although that can be a problem. Recently Hagerty tested a 1930-40's era Tatra. A rear engine car with a history of unstable handling. They decided to look at the myth. Yes the car was unstable, but they THOUGHT it was controllable until they ROLLED it at a mere 20 MPH!! A post crash evaluation found the radial tires were partly responsible. The improved rear grip overwhelmed the rear suspension and instead of the rear sliding out, the swing axle jacked up the rear and OVER the car went. If they had kept the tire pressure low to REDUCE tire grip the car probably would have gone into a slide or spin --- as was typical with the old bias tires!!

The Fiero was a lost child between the product managers and engineers. To sell the concept the engineers promoted it as a fun, affordable, commuter car to get the product managers on-board. It worked, BUT then the engineers were stymied at every turn when they tried to "upgrade" the car into a sports car. When the Fiero finally evolved with more power and improvements the insurance companies decided it was attracting "enthusiasts" instead of commuters and raised insurance rates. It ended up competing against commuter or sports cars that were more popular with the public.

The availability of the 64 rear suspension? A fellow in our club has a nice 62 coupe and in the last four years I've located THREE 64 rear setups on Craigslist. But he is busy with life and didn't pursue them - happens. Keep in mind you need the differential case, leaf spring, axle backing plates with the hardware for the leaf spring --- and a few more things. Basically find a rear suspension subframe with the transaxle, and complete rear suspension. It will most likely need to be rebuilt, but trying to run down individual parts is time consuming and expensive. Some just find a ratty used 64 and buy the car to get the 64 rear setup. Trying to adapt the parts to a pre-64 transaxle is not recommended. Also the 64 four speed transmission is a nice transmission to shift.

Finally ---- All it takes is a lot of time and money to keep a hobby going. There are worse things to spend money on.

Good luck.

[bbodie52]

1962 Corvair Monza Station Wagon

The Corvair station wagon, marketed as the Lakewood, joined the lineup in 1961. In 1962, the bottom line 500 series station wagon was dropped and the 700 became the base station wagon. The "Lakewood" name was dropped. In spring of 1962, Corvair station wagons were discontinued. So only 32,120 Corvair station wagons (500, 700, or 900 Monza) were ever produced in 1961-1962. All had the 2 carburetor 145 Cubic Inch engine. So if you have your heart set on a Corvair Station Wagon, your search will be more difficult. The 1964 rear suspension in the remaining Corvair passenger car lineup was still a swing axle design, but had the addition of a transverse leaf spring between the two rear wheels in addition to the rear coil springs. The front suspension in 1964 received a stabilizer (anti-sway) bar. None of these Early Model Corvair suspension enhancements were ever offered on a 1961-62 station wagon, but it might be possible to adapt those components from a 1964 to an EM station wagon (a 1964 differential would have to be a part of the transplant, along with the coil springs to provide the correct match with the 1964 transverse leaf spring).



1964 Corvair Transverse Leaf Spring (Suspension component attaches to the differential in the center)



1964 Corvair Transverse Leaf Spring Components

Here are several Corvair For Sale websites that may be useful...

eBay is one possibility...


CORVAIRS FOR SALE
https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/pages. ... =buyorsell


Just Listed!
https://www.corvair.org/go-shopping


Chevrolet Corvair for Sale
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/car ... et/corvair


Classifieds for Classic Chevrolet Corvair
http://classiccars.com/listings/find/al ... et/corvair


http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/che ... rvair.html

Corvairs for Sale
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Corvairs ... 7975069947

Even a for "Corvairs for Sale" will produce many leads.

Click on the link to see all of the photos...

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=3&p=41935&hilit=cl ... gon#p41935

[joelsplace]

I've found that a lot of Corvair guys have had Fieros. I used to have an '86 GT. The 4 cylinder Fiero really handled well stock and is probably one of the best balanced cars I've driven. EM Corvairs aren't going to stick like a Fiero but they are a ton of fun to drive and they don't push at the limit like a stock Fiero. A LM Corvair will easily out handle a Fiero.
Corvairs shift a lot better than a Fiero and have much lighter steering. Corvairs weigh about the same as a Fiero but they feel lighter. The stock 4 wheel disks on a '84-'87 Fiero were about on par with the EM drums. The LMs stop better than a stock Fiero by a seat of the pants evaluation. I've never actually compared stopping distance but I know the stock Fiero brakes fade a lot quicker than the LM Corvair drums. I've never driven an '88 with the vented brakes.
I got interested in Corvairs back in the 80s because they handled so much better than 99% of the other cars at the time.