heater install

[BIGTWIN]

Ok guys, let's all remember this is a new guy before you razz me too bad. I have a 61 Monza and it appears it had no heater originally because it doesn't appear to have any ductwork (that I would recognize) under the rear of the car and had no controls on the dash. It does have the hard ductwork under the back seat but the front floor vents were blocked with a plate. My question is, am I in for a world of hurt to install a heater in this car and is there anything that should have been there from the factory just to implement the addition of the option later? The shrouds on the exhaust manifolds underneath are there with the large duct to hook a hose to but nowhere to connect the other end of that hose, and there are no visible places to connect anything heater related in the engine compartment. What say ye?

[Swngaxl]

The first thing to do is figure out exactly what you have. In '61, you had an option of getting either a direct air or a gasoline heater. Does this car have a gas heater? It would be located in the trunk. You mentioned there are ducts under the back seat. You also meniotned the front vents are blocked off. Do those blocking plates look factory? So there are several possibilities here.

1. The car has a gas heater.
2. The car came with a gas heater, and someone took it out.
3. The car had a direct air heater, and someone for some reason took it out.
4. The car came from the factory with no heater.

First of all can you post a picture of the trunk? From the photo it will be easy enough to determine the status of the gas heater, even if it's been removed. Tell tale holes and what not.

As far as under the car, there is a heater collection box that is on the body above the rear cross member. The heater fan sticks up into it, you can see it on the passenger side just forward of the transmission. That stuff may or may not be there.

The controls were cable slides in a piece under the dash below the ignition key. Is that piece there? If not, look under the dash and see if there are a couple of holes that look like they had screws in them at one time.

Look up under the dash at the defroster vents. There were two, one each side, and if the direct air heater was used, there should be flexible hoses that run out to the kick panels on either side. There may be remnents of them, or they may still be in place.

Look under the back seat at those ducts. Do they have flex hoses that run out to the side to dissapear into the body? That is where the heat goes forward.

Once you get all that checked out. you'll have a pretty good idea of how your car came from the factory. Since so many were made with direct air heaters, it realy shouldn't be a problem to get everything you need second hand to get it going. It is certainly doable to install a direct air heater in your car, you just need to first find out what you have, and what you need. The system is pretty simple. Any additional photos you can provide will help us figure out what you have and what might be missing. Top of engine, dash, underneath, trunk, ducts, etc.

Hope this helps,
Phil

[BIGTWIN]

Thanks Phil,
I can tell you there are no hoses anywhere inside the car but I see where they belong. I am in the process of cleaning up the previous owners wiring changes and installing a new dash wiring harness and went ahead and ordered the defroster hoses to install before I install the wiring harness and instrument panel. I will take the pics asap and post them. I can say there's no Gasoline heater in the trunk but I'll look to see if there are signs that there was one. I really appreciate the help.
Bruce

[bbodie52]

If there is truly no heater/defroster in your Corvair, you may be in the unenviable position of having to recreate one.

If it turns out that you need a bunch of ducts, a blower assembly, heater controls, etc., the Corvair Ranch, a used parts supplier in Gettysburg, PA, may be able to supply you with the items you need.

http://www.corvairranch.com/



The attached file is the section of the 1961 Chassis Shop Manual that covers the gasoline and forced air heaters in the Early Model 1961 Corvair.

1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 11 - Accessories.pdf

1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 11 - Accessories

(1.3 MiB) Downloaded 341 times

[mart]

I intend to use one of these to eliminate the ducting and the possibility of engine fumes entering the interior. I already have an upgraded alternator, 60 ah to cope with the extra power needed. They retail at around $180 -$300 depending on output required, they appear on ebay occasionally. Ducting and outlets will have to be made or perhaps adapted , we'll have to see

[larry202br]

I intend to use one of these to eliminate the ducting and the possibility of engine fumes entering the interior. I already have an upgraded alternator, 60 ah to cope with the extra power needed. They retail at around $180 -$300 depending on output required, they appear on ebay occasionally. Ducting and outlets will have to be made or perhaps adapted , we'll have to see

What is that? Can you provide a link, or manufacturers info?

[BIGTWIN]

Here are the pics of my trunk area, engine firewall, and under side. what say ye?

[BIGTWIN]

If i have to start from scratch am I better off installing a gas heater or a forced air heater?

[mart]

I intend to use one of these to eliminate the ducting and the possibility of engine fumes entering the interior. I already have an upgraded alternator, 60 ah to cope with the extra power needed. They retail at around $180 -$300 depending on output required, they appear on ebay occasionally. Ducting and outlets will have to be made or perhaps adapted , we'll have to see

What is that? Can you provide a link, or manufacturers info?

I just found it on ebay, its an electric cab heater, be careful when searching as some are listed as electric but need a hot water/coolant supply, .......these are used as auxiliary heaters for trucks and farm type vehicles and give instant heat, they vary in size and outlet design, but the one I want is about the size of an old 50's/60's car radio

[jennirw]

In either case you will need to find quite a few components. If you put in a gas heater you will need to add a special "X" back at the fuel pump and run a small fuel line up to the heater. From the photo of your trunk I can see you do have the opening for the unheated air that has a cover, you will also need an opening for the combustion air, the heated air, the exhaust pipe and the fuel line.

[BIGTWIN]

Thanks, I'll look it all over.

[Swngaxl]

From the pictures, your car did not come with a gas heater. If it did, there would be a hole in that flat round depression in the trunk.

Looking at the top of the engine, look on the firewall directly behind where the crankcase vent tube sticks up. See that flat panel attached with screws? That is blocking a "fresh air" vent hole. What you need to check is the top engine shroud just in front of it. There will be a hole there, so air can come from the top of the engine connected by a small hose to another connection where that plate is. You need to make sure that hole in the cooling shroud is also closed off, otherwise you can lose cooling air to the engine. It probably is, but is worth a check.

As for which heater is better, I think all would agree that the gas heater can't be beat for heat and speed of warm up. But you will need to find one, and get it all working. I have not worked with one myself, so i can't offer much help there.

As for the direct air system, it is pretty simple and can work fairly well, when it is all sealed up. What would be best would be to have a parts car in your own yard, that way you could see every peice you need. Take it off the parts car, refurbish it, and install it on yours. If that is not an option, then check around. have you joined a local club? There is a pretty good chance someone close by will have a parts car that will be willing to help.

The suggestion to try out the Corvair Ranch is a good one, they will definately have all the parts you'll need.

Phil

[BIGTWIN]

Thanks again Phil. I don't have any holes on top of engine shroud so at least the air is moving where it should. I just joined Corvair Houston club and am tracking down a guy with a parts car. I think with the price of gas these days I'm gonna go with the direct air unless a gas heater jumps out at me.

[bbodie52]

I think that being able to scrounge the pieces that you need from a local parts car would absolutely be the best way to go. Trying to come up with a complete order list for the entire heating system in a Corvair would be difficult at best. Then you would have to order and ship everything from the vendor. Every nut, bolt and cable is a potential source of problems. Besides, as you remove the components from the donor vehicle you will know exactly how they fit, which will make it much easier to install them in your car!

I never cared much for the concept of a gasoline burning heater in an automobile. I don't know of any other American vehicle that has ever been manufactured with such a unique system. The concept of burning gasoline in a small heater in the trunk and hoping that the heater is a well engineered system that will never malfunction is a scary prospect at best! Gasoline fumes are flammable and dangerous. I can only imagine the results of a fuel leak and a gasoline fume buildup in the trunk – ultimately to be ignited by the heater! This potential "bomb" in the trunk, right next to the gasoline tank, just in front of my kneecaps and face allows my imagination to run wild with terrifying possibilities! Those gasoline heaters were designed in 1959 and were only installed at Corvairs for a couple of years before they were abandoned. The fact that they were abandoned and discontinued, even though Corvairs continued to be produced for many years is somewhat disconcerting. I'm not sure if anyone knows why Chevrolet stopped using them – but if it was a potential safety issue I certainly don't want to find out the hard way! Those old heaters are now over 50 years old, and transplanting one into another Corvair is one "great experiment" I would rather avoid.

To paraphrase actor Robert Duvall's words in the movie Apocalypse Now, "Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of napalm in the morning."

A Corvair engine son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of a Corvair heater in the morning.

I would recommend sticking with the original and "time-tested" forced air Corvair heater. They are a little weak in the heat department, but since you live in a southern climate that will probably not be much of an issue. The use of the supplemental electric heater that was suggested might produce more heat – and without engine fumes – but I would avoid the old gasoline heater. Whether you use an electric heat source or the engine, you will still need all of the ducting, defroster components, heater controls, fan and blower assembly, etc. to direct and control the hot air. Good luck with your Corvair heater project.

FYI

Corvair Maintenance - Engine Fume Odor Diagnosis.pdf

Corvair Maintenance - Engine Fume Odor Diagnosis

(472.19 KiB) Downloaded 153 times

http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 437,543471

I have noticed a odd smell after the engine has warmed up. Oh well as long as it won't kill me I'll be fine.

The air heater design is a piece of work.

6 to 22 exhaust system joints IN the heater system.

Splashing through puddles creates fog out the defroster vents

Leaking oil provides fumes and sometimes smoke out the vents

...and the Delrin fan they installed briefly in '62(?) emitted toxic fumes to the heater.

It IS amazing the design was ever approved. At least the most common problem, oil fumes, won't kill you.

While growing up, we never even had a functioning heater in our '66 500. I remember my Dad going out at my grandma's to let it heat up for 20 mins before we drove home, trying to get it warm inside. When I finally became old enough to drive, I read the owner's manual and figured out that our bellows were shot. I went to a junk yard and replaced them, it worked 'amazing' after that. I dunno, never bothered me- I'm not poisoned and the one in my car now works great. When they are working they can really produce some heat!

If anyone has any ideas to make it smell better let me know, I was thinking of just shoving a couple of those little pine trees that you hang on your mirror, in the front vents.

[jennirw]

ACCORDING TO THE DOT 4-434-898 LETTER THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE DIRECT AIR HEATER -NO MENTION IS MADE OF THE GAS HEATER WHICH WAS THE ONLY HEATER AVAILABLE IN THE 1960.

My understanding of the reasons that Chev changed from the gas heater to the direct air heater was that customers where complaining about the gas mileage, trunk capicity and range of the gas tank. They did make it an optional heater - I do not think they had any safety concerns, the direct air heater had more potenial for getting dangerous fumes into the passenger compartment as per the letter above. By removing the heater, the spare tire and changing from a concave (hence the "Caveman"nickname) to a convex front end they were also able to increase the gas tank size and the advertiseable trunk capicity. Although, by placing the direct air heater distrubution box and fan above the transaxle they had to raise the floor of the luggage compartment behind the rear seat - decreasing the capicity of that area.
South wind has been making gas heaters for automobiles since the 1930's, they were sold primarly as aftermarket heaters. Many VW's used gas heaters. I am not aware of any safety problems with these heaters.

[bbodie52]

http://www.corvairunderground.com/news/dircetair.html

SOME HINTS ON "DIRECT AIR" HEATER PROBLEMS.

Two heaters were offered for Corvairs. In 1960 if you wanted an optional heater the gasoline type was all that was available - it's a great heater but Chevrolet thought it had met with consumer resistance. As a result, the "direct air" heater was born. It joined the the gas heater as an option in 1961 and we think 98% of all the Corvairs had direct air heaters after that. The gas heater was discontinued as an unpopular option in 1964, while the direct air heater became the only heater until end of production in 1969.

First a description of this type of heater is in order.

The lower part of the engine is enclosed by shrouding which forms a "heater box". The idea is to trap and control the hot air that comes off the engine so it is available to heat the passenger compartment. To avoid overheating the engine two damper doors are controlled by thermostats at the back of the engine. These "fail-safe" T-stats expand when overheated (or when they fail) which pushes the door open to let excess hot air escape. Two large 4" heater hoses channel the hot air up to a heater "distribution box". Here the heat is regulated as to it's entry into the passenger compartment. A blower motor and wheel aids in forcing air. (To visualize all this see the drawings on page N3). The system works quite well as long as things are as they should be.

• THE HEATER SMELLS BAD - this is, of course, the most common complaint about the Corvair direct heater. 95% of the time the smell is that of burning oil. Obviously this is caused by oil leaks in or around the "heater box". When the oil leaks it comes in contact with the manifold logs and turns to smoke, which gets pulled up by the ducting. The worst causes of these leaks will be the rocker arm cover gaskets, the pushrod o rings and the oil pan gasket, although other leaks can cause some odors too. First, the oil leaks must be replaced (see our engine section for seals and o rings). In addition the "heater box" is sealed up with what are called Shroud Gaskets. These should be installed to help prevent oil and water from entering the heater box area from the outside (this is our part # U-24).
• CARBON MONOXIDE LEAKS - are not that common but can happen anytime a packing is loose or missing or there is a hole or crack in a pipe. Such leaks are very dangerous and must be repaired immediately! See our exhaust section for repair parts.
• THINGS SEEM TO BE FINE BUT THERE'S NO HEAT - if the heater fan is working, but you get only cold air, then you need to check - THE 4" HOSES - make sure that they are both in place and aren't full of holes. If they need to be replaced the hose is PN U-458 and is sold by the foot. 5' will do both sides of a 61-64, 6' both sides of 65-69.
• MISSING SHROUDING - if any of the lower shrouding is missing then most of the hot air will escape and not be available. We have most all shrouding available used.
• BAD THERMOSTATS - when the "bellows" damper door thermostats fail they expand out, making sure that the doors open. Unfortunately in cold weather these doors usually must remain closed, even when the engine is warmed up. If they are open prematurely then the hot air will escape.
• THERE'S HEAT BUT NOT MUCH VOLUME OF AIR - your air or heat control cables may be stuck or broken. See the CABLES section for replacements. Also the heater or defroster hoses may be plugged up with either loose insulation or other matter (mice love Corvairs and like to make nests in the ducting).
• HI-VOLUME BLOWER MOTORS - can increase your volume of air up to 40% without major modifications to the system. This is very helpful for all Corvairs but especially vans and convertibles. The hi-volume blower motor is PN U-2488. In addition you should replace your old two piece riveted fan with a one piece plastic fan PN U-2489 (no more rattling fan!).

Remember that the Corvair direct air heater works very well when some basic things are the way they should be!