So much info, brain not big enough!!!

[f3racer]

Ok... So i'm pondering 2 different things here to upgrade: cooling, and the addition of 2 small .37 trim turbos. I have found a truck load of different sites and read until my eyes bled and im just as unsure as when i started.

Cooling,
Initially i was looking at removal of the factory fan and adding an electric fan. I figured just as with any belt fed fan that you can free up some horespower absorbed by accessory draw. So far i am reading that this is a big fat no-no. What makes the least amount of sense to me is that the factory fan actually hinders cooling at higher speeds? Something about being too close to the engine and restricting the natural flow of the air passing under the car. What about the use of a high powered electric fan that can be turned off after a certain speed to help with cooling in both low and high speed instances? Also i was looking into adding larger oil and trans coolers that are either cooled with small electric fans or the addition of small scoops somewhere that will direct more air into the engine bay and placing the coolers directly in front of them.

Turbo,
So i know that orient express and a couple other manufacturors use very small turbos to power drag bikes. running those low on the car off of the manifolds, up into a WRX top mount intercooler, then split into the carbs. The WRX intercooler has a built in BOV. I know it would need so good tuning as well. What would be used to regulate the PSI going in at around 8-9lbs and what supporting mods would be needed. This is a 63 twin carb 164 motor. I read that the engine already has low compression so would a thicker head gasket be necessary?
http://www.ecotrons.com/products/small_ ... bocharger/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Excuse my horrible artistry.



Someone help straighten me out.

[UNSAFE]

Forget the electric fan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure how the fan being too close to the engine would change air movement under the car ?

Sounds kinda like you are trying to redesign the WHEEL

There are things you can do like run a half speed fan to free up some power .

You could run a water mister to cool in extreme conditions .

A larger oil cooler may help some .

Unless you are road racing a transmission cooler is probably not needed .

As far as the turbo set-up someone else will have to chime in but this may give you an idea of what I think

[f3racer]

Thanks for the response man. My knowledge comes from other cars and bikes so what I'm proposing would work great in that arena. Just didn't know about ours.

While I respect your advice can you give me a reason why the electric fan doesn't work. Not at all because I don't believe you but because I want to have as much knowledge as this brain can hold.

[bbodie52]

There is a Corvair electric fan kit out there, but I have yet to read a truly good report on its success. It is apparently still somewhat developmental and experimental, and pricey. You can see the listing at the website link below...


http://corvairspecialties.com/streetfankit.html

The Great Corvair Electric Fan Test
http://autoxer.skiblack.com/fan-elec.html

Electric Fans For Your Street Corvair?
[url]http://rad_davis.sent.com/RadFAQ/ElectricFans.html[/url]

[f3racer]

Bbodie52 to the rescue as usual it seems. Thanks I'll read up on it.

[f3racer]

Brad,

I read those before I decided to post. I asked the question again based off of the age of these tests. So correct me if I'm wron in 1 test an electric fan would work well in slow speed driving and traffic but would be a hindrance at high speeds. Now what I didn't read was if the electric fan was running when the car was above 45 mph. If it was then a simple switch cutting power to the fan above 45 would fix that. Is my theory correct or am I missing something?

The other link talked about needing an extremely large fan and a serious alternater in order to even come close to what the stock fan does. Being that the conversation is 13yrs old do you think that technology has bridged that gap with better fans and such?

[UNSAFE]

The electric fans that I have seen so far simply didn't move enough air to cool the engine at speed and they blow air down instead of flinging outward over the heads like the stock fan.

A simple comparison test that I did at Portland with my car and the electric fan car (that the guy was selling the kits which you read was not satisfactory) was to simply hold my hand under the car
and feel how much air was moving .

The electric fan was only a whisper of air compared to my cut down stock type fan .

On a car with a radiator the fan is really only much of a factor at slow speeds or at a stoplight -- when the car is cruising down the road there is plenty of air moving across the radiator and it doesn't even need a fan.

On a Corvair you need a fan to blow air across the cooling fins (radiator) .

The only problem I have with the belt driven fan is keeping belts on at high rpms .

Remember -- all cars are air cooled !

[USAF_vair]

I have read and read and more reading with the electric fans.

brad is correct.

the understanding is that the corvair fan pulls air then flings it across the engine in a cyclone motion where a electric fan conversion only pulls air then forces in a downward direction.

the way a conversion from stock belt driven fan will work is if someone comes up with a motor that will drive the stock or a modified stock fan with either electric or hydraulic motor principles.

turbo engines running 8-9 psi will also take some green backs to make reliable. pistons and rings will be needed and the head gaskets and heads will also need work to maintain the reliability. plus with power one needs to look at the WEAK links that will be located on the driveline, clutch, trans, etc. all I can say is make sure your ready for the breakdowns that will come with a major mod off stock engine design.

[f3racer]

Thanks guys I get the fan deal now. The stock fans will stay and I will add a larger oil cooler and probably wrap or ceramic coat the manifolds to keep heat down during these hot ga summer months.

What psi are the factory turbos pushing and are the internals between the turbo and non turbo motors that different?

[terribleted]

You say something above about a 1963 164CI motor. No 164's were built in 1963. They were 145CI until 64.

[UNSAFE]

if someone comes up with a motor that will drive the stock or a modified stock fan with either electric or hydraulic motor principles.

I have seen such a setup -- I think it was on Brian Oneil's race car .

I can't find a photo right now but it had a motor mounted vertically above the stock fan . I don't know how well it works because his car is usually broken

It seemed like the most practical way to go electric but it would have to draw a lot of current on a street car and that would cost some horsepower .

[UNSAFE]

I found a couple of pics -

This is the setup I was talking about .

This is one I came across during a search and apparently is being marketed

fan 1.jpg (32.19 KiB) Viewed 1026 times

It does look interesting .

[f3racer]

You say something above about a 1963 164CI motor. No 164's were built in 1963. They were 145CI until 64.

I stand corrected.

[bbodie52]

The Corvair magnesium blower seems to absorb 10-15 hp in high RPM operation. An electric fan motor will use significant current draw, which must be compensated for by an alternator with enough capacity to support that. For a given load in watts the alternator has to consume a certain amount of horsepower. According to the specifications I've read, the alternator is around 60% efficient, and it consumes about 1 horsepower for every 450 watts of load. In a 13.8-volt charging system this means our alternators draw one horsepower for every 33 amperes of load current. That number would give some idea as to the advantage or disadvantage of fitting an electric cooling fan to a Corvair, and whether or not it is cost-effective. The electric motor system reliability (MTBF) must also be considered when comparing it to the belt-driven configuration.

At an engine speed of 3000 rpm or less, it would seem that the belt-driven blower does not use much more horsepower than an alternator. In the 4000-5000 rpm range, the magnesium belt-driven blower consumes more horsepower, but it appears that the cooling capacity of an electric cooling fan may be inadequate to cool a Corvair engine that is working that hard continuously. So in a non-racing operating environment, there appears to be little power savings when using an electric fan. Considering the cost of an electric fan system, uncertain reliability, and negligible engine horsepower savings at normal street engine operation speeds, the benefits of an electric fan appear to be minimal.

CORVAIR COOLING FANS
Here is a link for some interesting Corvair cooling fan information. The chart below is from that website.

http://autoxer.skiblack.com/fan.html

* = Note: the airflow curve is starting to flatten out on the 140 test. The HP demand curve isn't, though.

Allowing for graphical error, the 1960 fan is always more efficient than the magnesium fan, at least to 4K rpm. The one number I have for the 61-63 fan is 1460 cfm at 4k rpm. This would make it pretty close to identical to the magnesium fan as an air pump. At 2-3K rpm, where most 2-carb engines live, the '60 fan is functionally the best. It does have shortcomings of noise and belt jumping problems, however.


1960 Steel Corvair Blower (Fan)


1961-1963 Steel Corvair Blower (Fan)


1964-1969 Magnesium Corvair Blower (Fan)

[Scott V]

Ok... So i'm pondering 2 different things here to upgrade: cooling, and the addition of 2 small .37 trim turbos. I have found a truck load of different sites and read until my eyes bled and im just as unsure as when i started.

Cooling,
Initially i was looking at removal of the factory fan and adding an electric fan.

if you think your eyes bled already - heres some more stuff to bleed on. :-)

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=6624&p=44769&hilit=keith#p44769
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3567&p=25358&hilit=keith#p25358

http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 203,page=1
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 020,page=1

if you want to save some eye bleeding - the efan kit out there wont work.

-Scott V.

[Scott V]

What psi are the factory turbos pushing and are the internals between the turbo and non turbo motors that different?

stock turbos - 7 to 8 psi.

turbo engine - stuff that is different.
heads - low compression
oil cooler - larger 12 plate - the same w/the 140hp & a/c cars.
dizzy - different timing curve
crankshaft - hardened - the same w/the 140.
camshaft - turbo cam.
other small stuff like different engine tin/etc.

-Scott V.