A Tale of Woe..

[gETo]

Hello, all. Yes, it's me again. So, let me start with an UPDATE. After much angst in previous posts, I found the amazing and wonderful Eddie Meadows in Oviedo, Fla. It is about 2 1/2 hour drive. I rented a trailer and took Nellybelle for diagnosis. Fortunately, there were NO major mechanical issues! My rebuilt carbs venturis were expertly 'reemed' by Mr. Meadows for proper air/fuel and, with timing and distributor adjusted, it purred like a kitten. I drove it everyday for the past week and starting, running, power ALL excellent! I was going to drive to my daughter's house last night and THEN...it began misfiring and stalling??? It would catch occasionally, no gas pedal action made any UP in RPM, but, in the end, stopped and I can't start it. I called Mr. Meadows and he said check the points they may have slipped and be 'closed'. Pulled the Cap and a slight crank to be up on tip and gap seems okay. Fire is present. I can't go back right now { $75 rental, $50 Gas each way} and I can't perpetually bother him. SO....what can I , should I, CHECK NEXT? Since the points appear adequate, could timing have slipped? I'd hate to touch the distributor since it WAS running so perfectly and great. But, should I advance JUST a bit and try starting again. Advance would be Counter-clockwise correct? IS there anything ELSE I can check FIRST? As stated, it was running PERFECT! The wires and plugs are all new. It HAS to be something MINOR.. Anyone been here? HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks.

[gbullman]

Get a dwell meter and see what your dwell is (should be 31-34 degrees). That can be measured whether the engine starts or not.

Not sure how experienced you are with old school ignitions but the smallest of adjustments make a big difference. Just “breathing” on my points made them swing from about 24 to 34 degrees so you have to be very sensitive for any changes.

You don’t mention either a dwell meter or timing light but both are required to make the adjustments you are suggesting. Dwell must be set first because it affects timing, then set the timing with vacuum disconnected at the distributor and plugged.

I think you’re on a reasonable path, just don’t want you to inadvertently make things worse.

Others more experienced than me may have some other suggestions but points changing gap seems like a possibility to me.

[gETo]

Thanks for that. AS to the "dwell" meter I can get one but WHAT exactly is hooked to, with engine not running, and HOW is that adjusted? I have an old timing light good there. Thanks!

[azdave]

Don't start messing with the ignition and timing settings yet. You said you have spark but can you confirm you are still getting fuel? Maybe you lost a fuel pump or the system is full of junk and it slowly clogged up.

[gETo]

Not likely there. I have new fuel tank, fresh fill of 93 and new filters. The activation of the linkage has fuel mist in both carbs, which appears even. The carbs which Mr. Meadows fixed were recently rebuilt but he notes they are not always correct for that alone. AND it was running perfect ...until last night!

[azdave]

Not likely there. I have new fuel tank, fresh fill of 93 and new filters. The activation of the linkage has fuel mist in both carbs, which appears even. The carbs which Mr. Meadows fixed were recently rebuilt but he notes they are not always correct for that alone. AND it was running perfect ...until last night!

You don't mention a new fuel pump. You should have two small streams of fuel squirting down inside both carb throats from the accelerator pump circuit when you press the accelerator. If you don't see that, you could dribble about a 1/2 once of fuel down each carb and then see how it reacts to a start attempt. If that is no different then yes, probably not fuel at that point. I just hate to see you mess with the dwell and the timing if it was all perfect recently.

[gETo]

okay. I'll give that try. Also, the fuel pressure gauge {inline} reads 5 psi on cranking. It is just before the T connector.

[gETo]

Well, just went out and tried some Starting Fluid which I had on hand from pre-rebuild carbs testing. Same result. Momentarily wants to catch, but, NO. Rules out fuel??

[gbullman]

Thanks for that. AS to the "dwell" meter I can get one but WHAT exactly is hooked to, with engine not running, and HOW is that adjusted? I have an old timing light good there. Thanks!

I agree with Dave, don't necessarily change things but do check and see where the ignition is set. Dwell meters are easy, ones I've used go across the coil, red to + and black to -. Note if the mechanic did set dwell correctly and the points moved / slipped and changed it that also has an effect on your timing.

Per Dave's suggestion, how confident are you that the fuel system doesn't have dirt / crud in it as well as knowing the fuel pump is working correctly?

[azdave]

Well, just went out and tried some Starting Fluid which I had on hand from pre-rebuild carbs testing. Same result. Momentarily wants to catch, but, NO. Rules out fuel??

I would not suspect a lack of fuel now. The pressure gauge you mention would not be seeing 5 psi either. The filters in the carbs themselves will bypass if they get too clogged but that is unlikely. Back to checking the dwell and timing which you should be able to do without disturbing anything.

[gETo]

Just ordered a dwell meter...Friday. {sigh} We'll see. THANKS TO ALL.

[bbodie52]

» Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:49 am

Hello, all. Yes, it's me again. So, let me start with an UPDATE. After much angst in previous posts, I found the amazing and wonderful Eddie Meadows in Oviedo, Fla. It is about 2 1/2 hour drive. I rented a trailer and took Nellybelle for diagnosis...

Central Florida Corvair Club.jpg (205.76 KiB) Viewed 1154 times

Eddie Meadows = President, CFC Club
https://centralflacorvairclub.com/

Nellybelle??

Price realised: USD 116,500
Estimate: USD 20,000 - USD 30,000

Closed: 14 Jul 2010

NELLYBELLE

One of the most memorable characters on the Roy Rogers TV show that ran from 1951 through 1957 was neither Roy, Dale, Trigger, Buttermilk or even Bullet - or for that matter even made of flesh and blood. It was a TV icon manufactured from good old American steel and named Nellybelle, a 1946 Willys CJ-2A Jeep with some very innovative bodywork. It was in fact owned by Roy, but was driven in the show by his comic sidekick, Pat Brady (1914-1972). Brady met Rogers while appearing as a bass guitarist in California in 1935, striking up a friendship with the young country & western singer who was a member of the popular group, The Sons of the Pioneers. When Len Slye was elevated to screen stardom as Roy Rogers, he recommended Brady as his replacement. However, as Bob Nolan, an original member of The Sons, was referred to as Bob, "Bob Brady" became "Pat Brady" joining the legendary singing group and appearing in a dozen films between 1938-51, including West of Cheyenne (1938), Man from Sundown (1939), The Durango Kid (1940), Song of Texas (1943), Bells of Coronado (1950), and South of Caliente (1951).

On TV, Pat Brady drove around Mineral City, the setting of the series, sweet talking to Nellybelle as if his verbal compliments could convince the recalcitrant jeep to get up and go. The name, which was painted on her doors in most episodes, apparently developed out of Pat riding an ornery mule in the earlier movies, and addressing it with phrases like "Whoa, Nelly!"

Roy Rogers chose to include a Jeep into the program because he noticed that after WWII, Jeeps were very popular, especially with children. Rogers himself owned a Jeep which he used for hunting, off road cruising and travel to and from his studio.

I think I see the similarities, since both Nellybelles are classic car convertibles.

[bbodie52]

If you cannot start the engine, how will a dwell meter help? The dwell meter measures the period of time that the coil is turned on. It is a number, in degrees of rotation, that shows how long the points are closed to energize the coil primary winding. This period of time allows the primary magnetic field in the coil to build. When the points open, the magnetic field collapses, which induces a voltage in the secondary winding that is multiplied to a higher spark voltage because of the secondary coil windings, which are much greater in number than the primary coil windings.

If the engine is not running, the dwell/tachometer has nothing to read. It functions based on the ignition on/off activity in a running engine.

If your ignition system is misfiring, it is not necessarily the fault of the points. If the points switch contacts ar not pitted, burned, or distorted, and both contacts appear to be clean and flat, the problem maybe elsewhere. The correct point gap is usually set to 0.019" using a flat feeler gauge.

Good distributor ground is essential for the system to properly function. The closed points provide a ground connection to the coil negative terminal. If the breaker plate (where the points are mounted) is not providing a good ground, the points cannot successfully ground the coil negative terminal. A faulty voltage connection to the coil positive terminal can also cause a failing ignition system, as can a faulty ignition coil. The wire between the points and the coil sometimes fails, providing a poor electrical connection between the points and the coil. The distributor cap and rotor should also be inspected for signs of damage.

A multimeter can help with some of this testing, to check for electrical continuity, the presence of voltage to the coil positive terminal, etc. Even a loose electrical multiconnector in the engine compartment can disrupt the electrical connection between the ignition switch in the dashboard and the ignition coil positive terminal. A faulty ballast resistor wire in the wiring harness can also prevent or lower voltage to the coil below the level required for it to operate.

To guide you in troubleshooting your ignition system, we need to know which tools you have, and your level of experience in using them. We can guide you through some troubleshooting steps, but an inexpensive multimeter will be needed.

[azdave]

If you cannot start the engine, how will a dwell meter help?

My analog dwell meter will measure properly when cranking the engine but you don't really need to bother with that yet. A dwell reading drifting will not prevent an engine start. If you have spark then you at least know your points are opening and closing. Best to check the point gap with a feeler gauge and confirm it is between 0.016"- 0.019". That is easy and will get the dwell into range without even testing it. Dwell and point gap cannot be set independently on our simple distributors so after the engine is running, you go back and fine tune the point gap to get the dwell reading to spec. A narrower gap gives more dwell and a wider gap gives less. Taking it to extremes, excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse before it delivers all its energy. Too little dwell gives the magnetic flux insufficient time to build up to the maximum.

[terribleted]

How strong are the sparks? Remove the coil wire from the cap and hold the contact of the coil wire 1/4" from the contact in the center of the cap have a helper crank the engine and observe the spark (wear a glove while holding the wire doin this as you can get a pretty good jolt if the voltage wants to go through your arm). Spark should have no problem jumping the 1/4" gap and ideally should be blue or at least bright yellow. If the spark looks weak or does not jump the gap and the points look good and are gapped properly I would suspect a failed points condenser first.

[bbodie52]

But there are other possibilities...

The aging 12-pin engine compartment multi-connector contains 12 metal electrical connectors in a plastic shell. It is exposed to heat, vibration, moisture, and metal corrosion that can result in a poor internal electrical connection even when the two shell halves appear to be tightly seated together. An intermittent or high resistance internal connection can disrupt power to the coil positive terminal and disrupt or weaken coil spark output. A faulty wiring harness resistor wire can begin to fail and develop a heat buildup tha can increase resistance and reduce voltage to the coil.

The ignition coil itself can fail, causing a weak or poor quality ignition spark.

This connector wire can develop intermittent or poor electrical connectivity between the points

https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... ow_page=75
Point Lead: 1960–69 ALL. Replace that worn wire.
Part number C530: 60-69 DISTRIBUTOR POINT LEAD

Weight: 0 lbs 2 oz
Catalog Page(s): 75,77(11«),77(19)
Price: $ 8.50

Fuel and Carburetors, Ignition System, Cylinder Compression... These three factors combine normally into a running engine. You indicated that you were enjoying a good-running engine with fresh carburetors that were functioning well. If the float bowls are full and not flooding (indicated in a quick check by looking down the carburetor throats and viewing the action of the accelerator pumps squirting gasoline into the throat when you open the throttle), but the engine suddenly begins to misfire, gets worse, and stops running, it sounds like probable ignition failure. It is not a complex system, but you must confirm good voltage powering the coil, good coil on/off control and spark distribution via the distributor, and that the coil itself is working properly.

How To Test A Coil on a Corvair

http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 53,1091813

DELCO COIL SPECIFICATIONS:
PRIMARY RESISTANCE: 1.28-1.42 OHMS
SECONDARY RESISTANCE: 7200-9500 OHMS