62 Monza no lights

[VairsRule]

My '62 Monza has been sitting awhile. Now the lights don't work. No headlights, tail, turn signals, brake, interior bulbs, instrument cluster back lights. The two idiot lights on the dash do work, and the car starts/runs fine. If it was a bad headlight switch, I would expect the brake lights and turn signals to work.

Have done the following, but no change:

Tightened the ignition switch retainer ring (electrical issues in the past, when not tight enough).

Checked/cleaned all plugs for lights, front and rear. Note: Repainted the headlight units last summer. Maybe I lost my grounds? Had to clean all of these once before to get lights working right, but never had no lights work at all before. Have gone back around 2-3 times now.

Toggled high beam switch on/off multiple times, unplugged it, no difference.

Verified the black wire from voltage regulator to engine harness plug has 12 volts and harness plug connectors all in place and not corroded.

Fuse panel: Tested for power across terminals on the fuse panel a) with ign off, and b) with ign on the run position, and NO POWER TO ANY OF THEM! All fuses good, no loose clips, corrosion, etc. Removed fuse panel, insulator material present and in good shape, connectors and wires all good.

Poured over the wiring diagrams in the '61 shop manual trying to figure out where to look/test next. Figure 8-79 shows the 10 guage black wire carrying power from the main harness being spliced to a 12 gauge red wire that goes to the ignition switch, and a 14 gauge dark green wire going from the ignition switch being spliced to an 18 gauge dark green wire that goes to the instrument panel wiring harness. Not sure what to do with this information or if it has anything to do with this problem.

Can anyone tell ms if these symptoms indicate a specific cause and/or what steps I should take to advance the diagnosis? Thanks

[bbodie52]

Welcome to the Corvair Forum!

The schematic diagrams in the 1961 manual look more like engineering developmental drafts than final schematics that would be ready for publication. I think there was a rush to get the 1961 Shop Manual published, and they simply used what they had on-hand, even though they were poorly done. The diagrams in the 1962 supplement were greatly improved and the latter style remained through 1969.

I combined the three section diagrams (trunk, interior, and engine compartment) into a single continuous diagram for easier troubleshooting and tracking of circuits continuously from end-to-end. Simply left-click the diagram once to enlarge, and a second time for maximum enlargement. You can pan around to view different sections and to trace the path of a circuit.

The 10 Gauge Black main power feed from the voltage regulator passes through the 8-pin multi-connector in the engine compartment, then through a second six-pin multi-connector, and then ends at a wiring harness junction point. Looking clockwise, the junction point feeds (1) the horn relay in the trunk, (2) the fuse block, (3) the Ignition Switch, (4) the Cigarette Lighter, and the main Light Switch. Except for the Fuse Block, none of the circuits are fused.

The light switch distributes power to the (1) Tail and license plate lights, (2) the interior Dome Light, (3) the Stop Lamp Switch, (4) the Instrument Cluster Lamps, (5) the Headlights (High and Low Beam, via the dimmer switch), and (6) the front Running Lights.

Does the horn work? Does the cigarette lighter work? You already indicated that the ignition switch has power, since the starter functions, the ignition coil has power, and the instrument panel warning lights function. You may also find that the gas gauge functions, and the turn signal lights also probably work when the key is ON (powered through the fuse block and flasher). I'm guessing that the windshield wipers also work when the key is ON.

The common thread to all the non-functioning lights seems to be the light switch. You may find that everything that is fed from the wiring harness junction point is functioning, EXCEPT the items that are distributed power via the light switch. You might have a defective light switch or a loose/corroded connector on the light switch (see troubleshooting chart on page CHASSIS ELECTRICAL 8-75 of the 1961 Shop Manual).

From CORVAIR COMBINED WIRING SCHEMATIC DIAGRAMS viewtopic.php?f=225&t=12968

Left-click the image to enlarge (Twice for MAXIMUM enlargement) for better viewing or "Pan & Scan"...

1962 Passenger Car Combined Schematic

1962 Primary Voltage Path

http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... N&page=84B


Part number C1330: 60-63 HEADLIGHT SWITCH

Weight: 0 lbs 12 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 84B,R-24
Price: $ 33.65


=====================================================================================================

The link below will provide you with a list of useful websites that are Corvair-related. Some of the links will lead you to an extensive technical library that will allow you to download shop manuals and other technical references in Adobe Reader format at no cost. There is also a link that will help you to locate nearby CORSA (Corvair Society of America) club chapters. While the Corvair Forum can be very helpful as you work on your Corvair, having local friends and contacts in your region who are knowledgeable about the Corvair can also be very helpful. These family-friendly CORSA chapters often offer picnics, group scenic drives, technical training and assistance, car shows, and competition events that can greatly enhance your enjoyment of Corvair ownership. You will also find a list of essential Corvair parts suppliers. Clark's Corvair Parts in Shelburne Falls, MA is the biggest and oldest Corvair supplier in the world. You will find a link that can provide you with a series of videos that amount to a tour of the Clark's Corvair Parts facilities. I think you will be amazed at the quality of the reproduction components they offer — particularly the interior carpeting and re-upholstery items. Parts suppliers such as this truly make our Corvair hobby possible.

Common and Useful Corvair Websites

viewtopic.php?f=225&t=6007

[VairsRule]

Thanks for all the great info! These wiring diagrams are so much better. In answer to your questions:

The horn, gas guage and heater fan DO work.

Turn signals do NOT work, even when in Run position (they did before).
Wipers do NOT work (they did before).
Cigarette lighter does NOT work (probably never did).
Dome light does not work (probably never did). The driver side pressure switch is shot, and after I unplugged it, it would not plug back in (spade connector is way inside the plastic housing). Did not test the bulb.

The headlight switch and dimmer switch were working fine before.

Possible causes for "Lights Will Not Light" from the troubleshooting page:

1. Discharged Battery: NOPE, it's good, plenty of cranking power.

2. Loose connections in lighting circuit: Not that I can find (see note below).

3. Burned out bulbs: What burned out bulbs would cause NO LIGHTS AT ALL???

4. Open or corroded contacts in lighting switch: NEED TO REMOVE THIS AND TEST IT. WILL REPORT BACK LATER. However, I just tested all 6 fuses for power with ignition in Run position. All EXCEPT #5 (lights) have 12 volts on both sides of fuse. NO volts on #5 (either side of fuse). So, it looks like I am not getting power to the lighting circuit? Could a bad headlamp switch cause this?

5. Open or corroded contacts in dimmer switch: Tested continuity. Result: Works intermittently on right tang, nothing on left, so assume switch is bad These tend to be pretty flaky when old, even when they still work. The mounting bolts are odd oval slot. Will try a square drive bit on them. This could be the original dimmer switch (seems unlikely).

Note: I had the harness plug in the trunk unplugged while the car sat outside in the summertime with the hood off. This plug does not "snap" into place, and is a rather loose fit, but it does stay together. The connectors all look fine. Have not found any wires that appear cracked, broken or chewed on by critters, but have not looked under the car in a long time. All my jacks and jack stands are in storage, and do not have a garage at this house. The car is in a portable garage on a gravel pad, though (before that, it was in a dry garage for 6 months).

[VairsRule]

Made some improvement today. Brad, found this post with photo of a '62 headlight switch and your best guess as to the function of each connection.
First verified that there was 12 volts at the non-copper spade connector at the back of the switch that you identified as "Main Input Unswitched 12 VDC [14R]. Then removed the headlight switch. Tried to test it, but got no readings. The switch looked fine on the outside, so I took it apart. No problems inside, and very little corrosion, though there were a few places that needed brightening. Put the switch back together and tried testing it again. Got slightly better results this time (some continuity for a couple of combinations). Brightened up all the external connectors, retaining ferrule, etc., and reinstalled the switch.

RESULT: The headlights work now. Turn signals do not work, but at least the right direction indicator lights up. Brake lights do not seem to work. Did not check tail lights, but don't think they work either. Still no wipers (brightened the spade connectors, no improvement).

Next time, will remove wiper switch and clean up, and take another look at the tail lights and bulbs.

Thanks, Brad!

[bbodie52]

The "common thread" for the turn signals and brake lights is the turn signal switch. Two power sources feed into it — the brake pedal switch output and the turn signal flasher output. The bright filament in each rear 1157 bulb serves as BOTH the brake lamp and the turn signal lamp. On the front of the car the bright filament is active ONLY for the front turn signals. The dim filament on all four corners (all 1157 bulbs) serves as the running lights.



The 1157 bulb is keyed to ensure that is correctly inserted in the socket, so that each of the two filaments is connected to the correct circuit (running lights or brake/turn signal filament). The 1156 bulb serves only in the backup lights.



All rear circuits route through the engine compartment multi-connector (below the voltage regulator, near the firewall). The number of metal connector pins inside depend on the Corvair model year, ranging from 8-12 pins. This rear multi-connector is a common source of trouble, as it is subjected to age, vibration, heat, and moisture for many years. Even when the outer plastic shell halves appear to be tightly connected, the internal metal pins may not be providing good electrical connectivity, as they may be loose, dirty, corroded, or bent.

Since the rear brake and turn signal filaments are common to both the brake and turn signal function, the nature of the fault may point to a common thread. If both rear brake lights don't work, check the brake pedal switch for power feed to the turn signal switch when the pedal is depressed. If power is available, check the multi-connector. If no voltage is reaching the multi-connector, but is coming out of the brake switch, check the turn signal switch and its connectors at the steering column. With the turn signal switch in the neutral (OFF) position, power from the brake pedal switch should pass straight through the turn signal switch and on the the rear multi-connector and then to both rear bulbs (via separate circuit wires), and finally to GROUND at each bulb socket.

When the turn signal switch is activated, the front and rear turn signal bulbs on the side selected are temporarily tied to the flasher power source, while the rear bulb on the opposite side remains connected to the brake pedal switch for its power source. In this way the rear bulbs may indicate BOTH braking AND an active turn at the same time.

The turn signal flasher may not flash on/off if it does not "see" the correct amount of current flow drawn by all three bulbs in the circuit (front/rear/instrument panel bulbs). A faulty electrical connection, a burned out bulb, etc. may cause the flasher to hang up and not flash, or it may flash at a faster rate. Restoring connectivity to all bulbs and/or replacing a burned-out bulb may restore proper flasher activity.

The tail lights/license plate lamp rely on a single circuit for power from the light switch. They are not tied to the turn signal switch at all. If the bulb is good but neither lamp filament works on a common lamp socket, check for corrosion in the socket or a faulty socket ground.

[VairsRule]

All tail lights have the correct bulbs. Note: In a pinch, the 2057 dual element bulbs will work, but are a little dimmer than the 1057s.

Rear Running/Stop/Turn Lights: Tested right-rear tail light bulb (1157 dual element), both elements good. This bulb had dielectric grease on it, and fit more snugly in the socket. Swapped bulbs between left and right tail lights, and both of them now work (running light only). A little dielectric grease seems to fix the "too loose in the socket" issue. I may also try crimping the left socket a little to improve the fit. I repaired the pigtail on this one awhile back, but the contacts don't "spring out" like they are supposed to. Should probably buy a new pigtail. Any idea where I can find that really thick shrink tubing like the original material? The shrink tubing at HF is really thin.

Will test the brake light switch for power feed to the turn signal switch when the pedal is depressed as you specified ASAP. Thanks, didn't know about that!!!

Backup Lights: The left backup light works, the right does NOT work at all. Tested right backup light bulb, GOOD. Cleaned up ground contacts on body and light backing plate, still no light. Tested voltage, only get 10 volts. Connected a jumper from socket to ground strap, still no backup light.
Found that the wire got hit by a wire wheel when I refinished the engine bay. It's missing a bit of insulation. Will try replacing this section of wire.

Turn Signals: Still no turn signals (all four), and no front or right running lights. Will test the front bulbs next time.

Wipers: Cleaned and tested the ONE SPEED wiper switch. It's a rotary switch with two positions, ON and OFF, lol. It tested GOOD, but still no wipers. I can't remember if the wipers worked when I bought this car or not.

[VairsRule]

Tested for power out of brake light switch (tan wire), got 12+ volts. Still no brake lights. Tried putting the turn signal switch in all positions, but still no brake lights.

Tested for power on the right backup light (light green wire) from the place where insulation is scuffed to engine ground, no voltage. This wire goes into the wiring bundle that supplies power to all of the rear lights. The left backup light works GREAT. Felt the wiring bundle between the main harness plug and the back, and it was VERY WARM. Not HOT, but definitely not OK. The wire for the left backup light was NOT warm at all.
Guess the next thing to do is open up this bundle of wires and look for burned insulation, etc.

[bbodie52]

If you look at the schematic wiring diagram that I posted earlier, you will see that the wires from each backup light are connected together at the 8-pin multi-connector. The pin on the firewall side is wired to the backup light switch, which gets its voltage from the fuse block. If one has power, they both must because both wires are connected together st the same pin at the multi-connector! If the voltage is not getting to one bulb socket, it must be a broken or cut wire...



The switch is mounted on the steering column, so you should be able to follow the wire color codes and use a multimeter to trace the brake power and flasher power input and see if it makes its way in and out of the switch.

[VairsRule]

Thanks, Brad. As you said, both light green wires are connected to the same connector on the harness plug. I unwrapped all the wires all the way to the right backup light. I'd thought this was the original wrap, but turns out a previous owner had done some weird stuff.

The dark blue generator wire had a splice (last 8-10 inches on the generator end has a thicker blue wire). I knew about that. What I didn't know until now is that at the splice, there was a piece of lamp cord that ran most of the way up to the harness plug, but was not connected on the other end. Most of that wire was exposed, and all the wires were "glued" together. I was able to separate all the wires without any insulation coming off, and remove the piece of lamp cord. Had hoped to find a smoking gun, but...

After that, I re-tested voltage at the right backup light socket, and it still read just under 10.5 volts. I pulled the wire all up and down its length to try to get any breaks in the wire to separate, but the voltage remained steady. It's firmly attached at both ends, too. Looks like Clark's only carries the main wiring harness to cover this year for $90, but that is out of stock. Guess I'll try replacing just the one wire.

Turn signals still not working. Checked the left-front turn signal bulb, both elements good. Will test the turn signal switch and wires next time.

[bbodie52]

» Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:00 am

...I re-tested voltage at the right backup light socket, and it still read just under 10.5 volts. I pulled the wire all up and down its length to try to get any breaks in the wire to separate, but the voltage remained steady. It's firmly attached at both ends, too. Looks like Clark's only carries the main wiring harness to cover this year for $90, but that is out of stock. Guess I'll try replacing just the one wire.

Why the voltage drop? Was voltage OK when checked on the other side? Where are you grounding the multimeter negative test lead? On the lamp housing? A bad lamp housing or light socket ground could account for a voltage drop. Try measuring the voltage at the multi-connector pin between the pin and a solid chassis ground point (like the battery negative terminal). Should be a nominal 12 VDC. Then check at the lamp socket light bulb terminal and a good chassis ground. Still 12 VDC? What if your negative test lead is grounded on the light housing?

Here is a second source for Corvair wiring components...

» Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:46 pm

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I stopped by M&H's place of business and they were very helpful (I'm modifying one of their harnesses) and knowledgeable. I've used their harnesses in both my cars and fit and function is excellent.

M&H makes harnesses for lots of cars, but there commitment to the Corvair is worth noting. There are other suppliers, but over the years I've seen a number of so called "Corvair" wire harnesses from other suppliers that were incorrect or badly assembled that caused owners problems.

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Their catalog is available for download at their Web site.

[VairsRule]

Yes, why the voltage drop? For the test, I grounded to the engine ground strap on the right side. Also removed and cleaned that and brightened the sheet metal where it contacts (had previously repainted engine bay, used dielectric grease on connections to prevent corrosion). Pretty sure that's a good ground.

But I didn't think to use that same place to ground the left-side backup light. When I tested that one (which works), I grounded to the socket.

One possible cause is corrosion inside the wire for the right light. Have seen this rarely, but it does happen.

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, I will have to make my own this time. Is this BM-8 the right spade connector?:

http://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BM-8

[corvair500]

the terminals pictured appear to be correct for corvair , though pricey , at over $1 each . How many of these do you need ? I have some at 25 cents each , but add postage of 3.50

[VairsRule]

Thanks for the offer. I agree with your comment about those prices. Judging from the photo, they look nickel plated, which would be good.

Wanted to first check local stores have these connectors and the wire I need, LOL. Local auto parts stores only sell a few guages and colors. One electric supply chain (Platt) told me to check the website, and that they sell wire guages smaller than 8ga in 500 foot rolls only. Suggested I try Car Toys, but they don't sell wire (not surprising). :-\

I prefer making my own wiring harnesses and would like to keep all the wires the original guage (or 1 size bigger) and color, but where do you find it, and in the small quantities needed to fix one car? What do you do when you need to replace wire of a specific guage and insulation color? Just use whatever you can get?

On the bright side, I know I can get plastic wire loom locally for cheap (but is it flame retardant???)...

[VairsRule]

UPDATE: Just found this site (WiringProducts in Sparks, Nevada) that sells what I need, good prices:

Pack of 25 tin-plated copper non-insulated terminals for 22-18 gauge wire for $4.55:
//www.wiringproducts.com/22-18-gauge-0250 ... ieces.html

30 feet 18 gauge light green wire $6.90:
https://www.wiringproducts.com/18-gauge ... ckage.html

100 feet 20 guage light green wire $10.85 (they don't list 20gu wire in 30 foot lengths):
https://www.wiringproducts.com/100ft-sp ... -wire.html

Figured I'd use the 18 gauge, no harm in going on size bigger, and can use in more places.

[VairsRule]

Wow, found everything I need at a small auto parts chain. 35 feet of wire, 18 .205" connectors, 7ft 1/2" convoluted tubing for 14 bucks.

[corvair500]

The terminals that you gave a link to , may or may not work . They do not look like the terminals in Vair wiring harness . Do you know if they lock into the connector ? If not they may be subject to sliding out and causing the circuits to open . Let us know how they work out .
As to the wire sizes , should be ok to use a size larger .
Did you get the terminals you mention in your last post , the ones you call .205" ? I really have doubts about them as Corvair used .250 ; possibly a mis type ?