New, new and new...

[gilphilbert]

Thanks Brad, that explanation and the attachment make a lot of sense (after I read it a few times). It looks like I need a new link in order for the butterfly valve to open a little once the engine is running when cold.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain how it works!

[Dennis66]

Yeah, I believe a new set of plugs, take that air cleaner off so you can see what's happening and go forward from there. To try it out before you get that vacuum break link, you could disconnect the choke rod (coming up from the cylinder head) and the choke plate will drop open.
The fuel lines we'll worry about when you're ready to start driving it. You don't want a plastic fuel filter exposed to corvair engine compartment heat, and ideally, you don't want rubber hoses back there either. Unlike conventional engine compartments, the Corvair engine compartment is kind of sealed from outside air (other than intake / cooling), so like a boat, and fumes or liquid fuel is trapped there. Dennis

[gilphilbert]

Ah, that makes sense. So a metal filter and some replacement metal pipe for the gas lines are needed.

Now, for an update... some progress!

I got the new plugs this morning and gapped them as the spec in the manual (.030). As I removed the old ones, I discovered that the spark wires were not seated properly on the plugs and the plugs were not torqued to spec. In fact, I could put the socket on the plugs and remove them by hand - no wrench required. Certainly made them easy to remove but probably not good for compression.

With them all replaced (torqued to spec) and the wires seated properly (on both ends), I started the engine and watched the carbs. It started up on a fast idle and as the engine warmed up after a few minutes the chokes opened and idle slowed. After a few more minutes the engine promptly died.

The gauge shows no gas in the tank, so I went and grabbed a few gallons and started the car again. Now it's idling much more nicely. The "custom" exhaust is very loud though.

However, as soon as I put the transmission into drive or reverse the engine dies, so I'm guessing the idle screws on the carbs need adjusting (and the carbs syncing).

At this point, seems to make sense to run through the tuning steps and see where that takes me.

[Dennis66]

I would recommend spraying some carb cleaner into the carbs (using the red straw and down the vent holes). Do that and let it sit a while. Then I would add some Techron Plus (many swear by Seafoam, personally, I have always had good results with Techron) to the fuel you put in the tank. Do all of this BEFORE making any adjustments to carbs or linkage. Dennis

[gilphilbert]

Thanks Dennis,

I've done both now. The car starts and idles now without stalling, but there's a reasonable amount of smoke coming from the exhaust.

While trying to sleep last night, I remembered the guy I bought the car from replaced the push rods and mentioned in passing that the valves may need adjusting. Could this be the cause of the smoke? Either way, it seems like this may be my next stop on my troubleshooting journey. There seems to be differing opinions on doing this with the engine on or off. I don't have a third valve cover but it doesn't look like the much oil comes out during the adjustment, as long as you're fast!

[Dennis66]

I've done the valve adjustment with, and without the modified covers. Without the covers, I used a large piece of cardboard under the engine to catch the oil that does escape. Have you done hydraulic lifter adjustment before? (personally I hate it). I suggest you read up and watch videos. I hope to be doing the "dry" adjustment on mine today.
On the smoke it may just need to run a while. Dennis

[66vairguy]

Thanks Dennis,

I've done both now. The car starts and idles now without stalling, but there's a reasonable amount of smoke coming from the exhaust.

While trying to sleep last night, I remembered the guy I bought the car from replaced the push rods and mentioned in passing that the valves may need adjusting. Could this be the cause of the smoke? Either way, it seems like this may be my next stop on my troubleshooting journey. There seems to be differing opinions on doing this with the engine on or off. I don't have a third valve cover but it doesn't look like the much oil comes out during the adjustment, as long as you're fast!

Black smoke is usually excess gasoline, gray smoke can be ATF from Powerglide if modulator is leaking, blue black smoke is usually oil.

Check the smell of the oil. If you smell gasoline the fuel pump maybe leaking into the crankcase.

Static valve adjustment can be done, BUT RARELY do folks get it right. Several schemes to rotate engine so many degrees that usually does NOT work well based on listening to others and my own experience.

When I build an engine I do static adjustment when the top engine cover is off so I can MAKE SURE lifter is on lowest spot on cam. I also fill lifters with oil, otherwise they collapse too easy so you can't get a good fell for zero lash. I also rotate engine by hand with a dummy oil pump shaft to produce oil pressure so I know there are NO clearance issues between valve and piston. Otherwise I do the running adjustment. Easy if you have dual mufflers you can swing down. Just me.

[gilphilbert]

I've done the valve adjustment with, and without the modified covers. Without the covers, I used a large piece of cardboard under the engine to catch the oil that does escape. Have you done hydraulic lifter adjustment before? (personally I hate it). I suggest you read up and watch videos. I hope to be doing the "dry" adjustment on mine today.
On the smoke it may just need to run a while. Dennis

I've not done it before, I watched plenty of videos - one thing they all failed to mention is that you need to move the mufflers because there's no space otherwise. Fortunately I do have dual mufflers which should make this easier. I'll probably do it this week. I left the car to run for 10-15 minutes and the smoke didn't go away.

Black smoke is usually excess gasoline, gray smoke can be ATF from Powerglide if modulator is leaking, blue black smoke is usually oil.

Check the smell of the oil. If you smell gasoline the fuel pump maybe leaking into the crankcase.

Will do. It's hard to tell the color of the smoke, because of where the car is parked, but I have noticed that the smoke only starts once the car has warmed up and the idle drops. Could this be related to incorrectly adjusted valves?

Static valve adjustment can be done, BUT RARELY do folks get it right. Several schemes to rotate engine so many degrees that usually does NOT work well based on listening to others and my own experience.

Thanks, it sounds like doing it running makes the most sense.

One question - does the engine need to be hot, or does the engine just need to be running? My plan was to remove the covers, start the car and adjust immediately. This means the engine will be cold but hopefully means less oil lost / mess. I would imagine that the covers will be hot and harder to remove if I leave the engine to warm up before removing the covers. Sorry for the rookie question, the videos and articles I can find assume you know this stuff!

[Dennis66]

Hot vs. cold valve adjustment might have the same opinions as oil choice. Personally, I had mine warmed up enough that it wasn't still on fast idle. I'd shut it off let it cool a bit, pop the covers and adjust.
On your smoking. With at least the top of the air filter cover off, run it. There is a little metal tube sticking out of a grommet just in front of the hole leading to the carbs. This is the crankcase vent. Are you getting a lot of smoke out of it? That would blow-by. Could be caused by stuck rings. Stuck rings could take a good running to free up, or they might not free up (we'll hope for the best). I think my most memorable stuck ring thing was a '66 Impala (396) that smoked. I drove it around the neighborhood a lot - still smoking. Drove it to work a couple of times - still smoking. When I drove it up to my buddies boneyard (sold), it stopped smoking after about a 100 MPH jaunt up the interstate. Ran like a top.
BTW, that crank case vent is a dog leg shaped pipe. It also has a small hose attached to it. This is the PCV. Doesn't have a PCV valve, just a small orifice in the dog leg tube. Use a piece of wire to clean the orifice (they often clog). How does the oil look? Smell? Dennis

[66vairguy]

gilphilbert ---- O.K. you said "Smokes when warm and at idle." At idle vacuum is usually at the maximum. Oil is thinner as engine warms up.

First worn intake valve guides allow oil (the thinner/hotter the more oil) to be pulled into a high vacuum intake port. Often when driving there is little smoke, but you stop and let the car idle and then open the throttle and cloud of smoke emits from the tailpipe(s). The other issue is the PCV system. Excess crankcase pressure or improper PCV system can also cause smoke at high vacuum. Also someone may have left the intake valve seals off, or they are old and worn out.

Pull the oil filler cap off (only let the engine idle as revving it will cause oil to spit out) and look for puffs of smoke which indicates combustion is leaking past the rings (or piston is damaged). Even a properly operating PCV can't cope with a lot of "blow-by". Also look in the air cleaner for oil from the PCV hose.

Hot or cold valve adjustment doesn't seem to be that critical with 1/2 turn after zero lash. After years of "debate"now the agreed procedure is to back off slowly until you get clicking, then slowly turn down 1/2 turn (slowly to allow lifter to bleed down from full extension). Not 1/4 turn, not 3/4 turn --- 1/2 from zero lash (clicking while running). I usually let the engine idle 5-10 minutes before doing a valve adjustment.

Dennis66 -- The Corvair SAE papers indicate the Corvair engine heating and cooling expansion produced acceptable changes. Keep in mind the steel pushrods, cast iron cylinders, steel head studs all have similar expansion rates. I wonder how this would have been upset by using aluminum cylinders with steel inserts. The "opinions" say Alcoa could not supply enough aluminum to make cylinders (I find this hard to believe), or that aluminum cylinders with steel liners would be too expensive (possible). I suspect the cast iron cylinders had a more compatible expansion rate and they aren't that heavy (probably a superior alloy as time has shown Corvair cylinders have a low wear rate. Just speculating.

[Dennis66]

Dennis66 -- Keep in mind the steel pushrods, cast iron cylinders, steel head studs all have similar expansion rates. I wonder how this would have been upset by using aluminum cylinders with steel inserts.

.
So that got the wheels in my head turning. I did a search and some checking on aircraft engines. Continental A65, 0200, Wright Cyclone, P&W Twin Wasp. All seem to have steel cylinders. Now these cylinders were actually threaded into the heads (and somehow locked in place). A flange at the bases bolted to the various blocks. Certain later Cyclone models (1820CID) had an set of fins around the cylinder barrel that was a separate part almost mesh like. Bear in mind that most engine heat is made and dissipated at the heads though. Dennis

[gilphilbert]

Thanks both,

I did the valve adjustment this afternoon. I started the car and it would no longer idle - I cleaned the contacts on the distributor cap and rotor, fixed a vacuum leak I found and resat one of the spark plug covers (electrocuting myself in the process) and got it idling again - if a little rough. While troubleshooting the vacuum leak I fixed covered the left carb air intake with my hand and there was a fierce vacuum. As soon as I did this the engine started idling faster and slowly dropped off again after I removed my hand.

While I let the engine warm up I took off the air cleaner - there was smoke coming from the crankcase vent. I also noticed the left choke wasn't opening anywhere near as fast as the right and that the smoke was coming from the left tailpipe.

I took the valve covers off one at a time. The rockers were so loose they were just flapping around when I touched them! But, they're correct now, I believe. The engine is much quieter now - more of a purr than the clanky ramble it sounded like before. It's also idling nicely and the smoke seems to have stopped. I could also give it some gas and it revved faster without nearly dying after.

The oil doesn't smell like gas - I checked since I already had it all over my hands!

So, very pleased, I took it out for a short run up and down the road I live on. Technically, I only made it there as after a minute or two the engine slowed and stalled and wouldn't even idle again when I started it. It started for a few seconds then died.

So, a step in the right direction. But I need to be able to drive for more than two minutes so I need to work out why it won't let very long. I'm guessing it's probably something to do with either the carbs, or perhaps the distributor which is behaving oddly. The only other thing I can think of is that I'm losing vacuum once the engine warms up after a few minutes of driving instead of just idling.

[Dennis66]

Try this: Get it started, warmed up, and running. With it idling, try spraying WD-40 or even brake cleaner around the bases of each carb. See if that changes anything. You could have a vacuum leak. These are supposed to have a gasket, a heat insulator spacer, another gasket, and then the carbs. As often as these have been screwed around with, anything could be possible. Dennis

[gilphilbert]

Thanks Dennis,

I'm not sure what's going on - while it happily idled yesterday while I adjusted the valves and then was even good in gear, after it stalled out yesterday it won't idle today. I can keep it 'idling' by keeping my foot on the gas but it's still pretty rough even then. I'm no expert but it sounds like one of the cylinders isn't firing when it's cold, too.

The vacuum tubes are all old and pretty nasty and there are far more joins than there should be, so I'm going to go and grab some vacuum tube tomorrow and see if that at least gets it idling again, although I don't have much hope. I checked the bottom of the carbs - I can see a spacers on both carbs and, on the right I can see one gasket (above the spacer) but I can't see any gaskets on the left carb.

I'm not sure how to check the vacuum if the engine won't run. I tried unplugging the tube from the distributor advance and blowing/sucking - there was a small amount of vapor from the left carb's air inlet when I blew (the engine had just stalled). When I sucked I just got a mouthful of gas vapors - I don't recommend it! Either way, there's no seal there but I'm guessing that's the carbs.

I wanted to order some new spark plug wires, a new distributor cap, rotor and points from Clark's, so maybe I'll get some new gaskets for the air cleaner (they're pretty nasty and aren't closing the gap) and some for the carbs while I'm there. I might order a UniSyn so I can balance the carbs later too.

[65Monza140]

Hello All,

You all are a fantastic resource to all new owners of the Corvair. THANK YOU for sharing your knowledge and experience with us!

I am the happy, (soon to be happier) owner of a couple of "barn finds" I came across recently: Number ONE is a '65 convertible 140 (engine code RM), Monza (did Monzas come with 140 dash? This one has it,) the posi differential code "AD" stamped on the differential, and darn if a lifted wheel won't spin in neutral! This car has NO rust ANYWHERE, but poor paint, rough interior seats & top. Everything but the dash paint looks original. The REALLY BAD news: Seems like the engine was run out of oil as it is FROZEN solid, and there was no oil in the crankcase. I even filled the crankcase completely with some used oil and let it sit a few weeks. (found some leaks, naturally), No go. Looks like a major overhaul and I expect at lease, the crank, cam and maybe the block won't be usable. (Sigh..) BUT, the car came with 4-5 engine blocks, one of which is another RM, 30-ish cylinders, about 10 pistons / rods, 12 heads, 2 cranks, 95 hp and LM, push rods, a cam and another 66 Corsa complete powertrain (3 speed). This motor has 90 psi compression all around after sitting who knows how long...Yay! I can make it run for a while while I rebuild a motor & make Mr. & Mrs Clark a little more wealthy...not run WELL maybe, but at least run.

Number two: '65 four door 110, (engine code RD & has the PG shifter on dash), four speed conversion, with factory A/C! Living in the SW US this is a BIG PLUS in an old car that's going to be a daily driver...This car has rusted rocker panels behind both front wheels but otherwise just some surface rust here and there. It also came with all chrome trim removed and accounted for, some body prep work already done but then it sat. The interior front seats, carpet & headliner need attention too. This car also came with another set of 14" rims! (Anyone running 14" rims?), and some extra engine parts. All for a song!

BAD NEWS: This engine also won't turn. (Sigh.) Anyone know any magic fix for frozen corvair engines?

Long story short, I am doing my part to save these great old pieces of history for posterity (and ME!) I expect I will be pestering you all for advice on various aspects of these projects, so I thank you for your help in advance. Hopefully I won't be too much of a pest. I had a '65 110 4 speed in high school and Dad helped/taught me a lot about engines, transmissions and differentials as we rebuild the car. I will probably be learning body work, too due to the price of that labor & having 2 cars that need that work on them. I hope to interest my 12 year old son in learning some basic mechanical work, and maybe get him into Corvair restoration 101 with Dad. We need to get the next generation turned on to the aspects of these great cars.

Couple of questions right off: Anyone using Clarks 260/270 grind cams? Clarks cylinders & pistons? How about Brown's EFI? (drivability between HIGH elevation to 1100' elevation frequently, along with the great mileage seems to make this more affordable in the long term...)

Any engine rebuilding advice is WELCOME! I need to be able to move these cars around while I work on them. I think this car will be the priority as I have to get it painted or it will rust, even in the SW. It's outside right now.

I am looking into the local Club, too. My greatest resources and encouragement will be you all. Thank you again for your willingness to share!

[gilphilbert]

Thought I'd provide an update for everyone, even though it's not great...

I've now replaced virtually everything in the vacuum path - all the lines are new, I cleaned the balance tube at the back of the engine bay that connects to the air cleaner and PG, replaced one of the vacuum choke pull-off valves (diaphragm was shot) and replaced the carburetor spacers and gaskets. One of the gaskets had melted, it wasn't much fun getting that off. As suspected, two gaskets were missing so now I'm up to four. I've also replaced the spark wires and "tuned up" the distributor - new cap, rotor, points and condenser. I don't think I've missed anything, but it's taken me a while since I've been doing this in my spare time.

So, that's all the good news. The bad news is that the engine is still stalling. I can get it to turn over and catch, but now it'll only run for maybe 2-3 seconds before stalling. If I put my foot on the gas a little, I can get it to run for maybe 4-5 seconds but then the revs drop and the engine still stalls. All my work seems to have made things worse rather than better, which is quite frustrating.

This is my list of potential things, but I've no idea how many of them are reasonable, it's mostly guesswork from what I can glean from lurking on the forum:

• Valve rockers are too tight, possibly they've bent a push rod or two. I really don't believe this is the case since I was careful, but I guess it's possible. It's also possible the valves are no good. I don't know if the previous owner (who replaced the push rods and tubes) also inspected or replaced the valves.
• The actual carbs need refurbishing. This is probably outside of something I want to do, but I could get some refurb ones from Clarks. There's some brown gunk inside the very top of passenger-side carb and I don't know what it is - I've also been unable to get it off with carb cleaner.
• I messed something up in the ignition system, although I've double-checked everything. Points are set to .019 as the manual says for new points
• The coil, maybe? But I would expect intermittent behavior (idling, etc.) rather than just not starting

As always, any help is appreciated