Oil pump housing

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gnrand
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Wildomar,Ca

Oil pump housing

Unread post by gnrand » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:58 am

Does the engine need to be removed to pull the housing. This is on a late model car with a 140 engine.
Jeff
1965 140 Corsa
1968 140 Monza convertible 4 speed
1965 Corsa Convertible
1986 Buick GN V6 600hp

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thewolfe
Corvair of the Month
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Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by thewolfe » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:12 am

No but you need to disconnect the engine from the rear engine mount then drop the motor down a little to be able to get the harmonic balancer off. Unless you have the slim removal tool that Clark's carries.
Nate Wolfe
65 corsa 180

notched
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Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by notched » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:22 am

Not sure what you are planning but will tell you that the high pressure pumps do the same kind of damage to the Corvairs as they do to the Buick V6's.
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

gnrand
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Wildomar,Ca

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by gnrand » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:41 am

So I put this engine together with the high volume pump and housing that Starr Cooke provided and when I did the bench test to prime the pump it was difficult to get any pressure. I pulled the pump cover and added packed the gears with KY (something I always do with Buick rebuilds). I also added more oil to the Otto pan just to insure I had enough. I was then able to get 20 psi with my drill but when I installed the engine it again is down to zero. I want to have a look at the pressure relief valve and gears and possibly pull the housing. I also want to do a sanity check to make sure the gallery plugs have been installed ( have a rod that I used to measure the distance from the rear of the block to the front to determine if they are in place. A lot of work and I am 99% sure they are in but just a check if all else fails).
As far as Buicks V6 engines, I have used HV pumps in the past and have not had any issues with them but it is overkill and that is why I currently do run them on a street engine. I have no experience with a Corvair motor and that is why I have asked the question in another post.
1965 140 Corsa
1968 140 Monza convertible 4 speed
1965 Corsa Convertible
1986 Buick GN V6 600hp

66vairguy
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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by 66vairguy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:54 pm

The general consensus is -- DO NOT USE THE HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP IF THE ENGINE BEARING CLEARANCES ARE STOCK!!!

NOBODY has ever had an issue with the standard Corvair oil pump IF the bottom plate oil pump gasket is properly selected and the engine is in good condition.

It has been demonstrated on numerous engines (built to stock bearing clearances) that the excess volume is just a waste of energy as the by-pass valve opens to keep the pressure normal (excess pressure is as detrimental to bearings as too little pressure). Even worse that WASTED pumping energy actually makes the oil HOTTER!

If you are building a race engine to loose tolerances (to reduce parasitic losses) then you need the higher volume pump. Of course race engines are rebuilt at short intervals and are not really practical on the street.

If the engine is stock, then back to a stock pump and PLASTIGAUGE the pump cover/gears to select the proper gasket thickness.

gnrand
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Wildomar,Ca

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by gnrand » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:28 pm

Bob, I understand the issues with an HV pump but for right now I am trying to figure why I am not getting any oil pressure. The existing pump is setup for .003" clearance according to the numbers written on the cover. Maybe a stuck bypass valve is the issue. Clearances on the mains are .0028" and the rods .0024" so it is a little loose.
1965 140 Corsa
1968 140 Monza convertible 4 speed
1965 Corsa Convertible
1986 Buick GN V6 600hp

66vairguy
Posts: 1333
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by 66vairguy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:04 pm

Who put the "numbers" on the pump cover? Where are you measuring the oil pressure? Are you sure your gauge is correct?

The manual tells how to measure and select the cover gasket thickness, BUT ALWAYS verify with platigauge. I've also had the issue of one side having greater clearances than the other with respect to each gear. It's known that the plane for the pump cover was sometimes off JUST A LITTLE so the plate would not be "square" with the gears and would wear down the closet side of the cover. So if you rotate the cover 180 with the original gears - then one side clearance is less than the other. Rotate and plastigauge and then both clearances are the same (BTDT).

Bottom line -
either the gear to cover clearance is too large
the oil pressure regulator is not working correctly (unlikely if parts are good)
you have a leak somewhere (yes folks do leave the block gallery plugs out by mistake)

Others may have more suggestions.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the engine should have stayed OUT of the car until the oil pressure issue was resolved. I typically run an engine (with mechanical oil pressure gauge) for a combined run time of one hour before I install it. Even the best rebuilder can find issues after a rebuild.

notched
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by notched » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:46 pm

I have built MANY Buick V6's over the past 18 years. High volume high pressure pumps wear the #1 cam bearings as well as wear the cam sensor drive gear and/or the bore for the roll pin. If you have anything other that a stock late 86-87 Buick cam you will have a groove cut into the #1 cam bearing. Those high pressure pumps will cause the cam to cut the soft cam bearings almost in 2!
On a Corvair high pressure/high volume pumps will wear the pump drive tang at the bottom of the distributor or elongate the holes in the distributor gear...........
stock pumps work great. I run a clearanced stock pump on my Buicks and my Corvairs with no problems :)
All those high volume high pressure pumps do is create more drag and waste horsepower.
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

gnrand
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Wildomar,Ca

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by gnrand » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:05 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:04 pm
Who put the "numbers" on the pump cover? Where are you measuring the oil pressure? Are you sure your gauge is correct?

The manual tells how to measure and select the cover gasket thickness, BUT ALWAYS verify with platigauge. I've also had the issue of one side having greater clearances than the other with respect to each gear. It's known that the plane for the pump cover was sometimes off JUST A LITTLE so the plate would not be "square" with the gears and would wear down the closet side of the cover. So if you rotate the cover 180 with the original gears - then one side clearance is less than the other. Rotate and plastigauge and then both clearances are the same (BTDT).

Bottom line -
either the gear to cover clearance is too large
the oil pressure regulator is not working correctly (unlikely if parts are good)
you have a leak somewhere (yes folks do leave the block gallery plugs out by mistake)

Others may have more suggestions.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the engine should have stayed OUT of the car until the oil pressure issue was resolved. I typically run an engine (with mechanical oil pressure gauge) for a combined run time of one hour before I install it. Even the best rebuilder can find issues after a rebuild.
Bob in my previous post I mentioned that I had 20 psi on the bench. It showed no pressure when I started the motor and after 15 seconds I shut it down. I pulled the distributor and tried the drill and now have zero pressure. I am close to pulling the housing and hope to find and answer.
1965 140 Corsa
1968 140 Monza convertible 4 speed
1965 Corsa Convertible
1986 Buick GN V6 600hp

gnrand
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Wildomar,Ca

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by gnrand » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:10 pm

notched wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:46 pm
I have built MANY Buick V6's over the past 18 years. High volume high pressure pumps wear the #1 cam bearings as well as wear the cam sensor drive gear and/or the bore for the roll pin. If you have anything other that a stock late 86-87 Buick cam you will have a groove cut into the #1 cam bearing. Those high pressure pumps will cause the cam to cut the soft cam bearings almost in 2!
On a Corvair high pressure/high volume pumps will wear the pump drive tang at the bottom of the distributor or elongate the holes in the distributor gear...........
stock pumps work great. I run a clearanced stock pump on my Buicks and my Corvairs with no problems :)
All those high volume high pressure pumps do is create more drag and waste horsepower.
I have never had those issues on my engines. I use the TA Teflon coated cam bearings with the full groove on the back side. All the cams I use are roller Comp cams.
1965 140 Corsa
1968 140 Monza convertible 4 speed
1965 Corsa Convertible
1986 Buick GN V6 600hp

notched
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by notched » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:45 am

You wouldnt know that you have the problem unless you had it apart. If you have the Comp Cam then the #1 has the groove in it. I usually spray weld that groove shut on the camshaft when I use them in 109 block engines. I and others have used that aftermarket cover before. Many of them were not machined properly. I went back to a stock GM. I bought several of the GM covers because they work the best. On the Corvairs I deburr the housing and tig weld over the idler pin for the pump since I have been burned by several leaking. Other than that I set up the clearance to stock GM specs.
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

notched
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by notched » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:49 am

Was that housing that Starr Cooke sold you glass beaded? All the housings he has listed on Ebay have been. Fastest way to trash an engine
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

gnrand
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Wildomar,Ca

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by gnrand » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:18 am

notched wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:49 am
Was that housing that Starr Cooke sold you glass beaded? All the housings he has listed on Ebay have been. Fastest way to trash an engine
Thanks for all your kind words and an education on Buick motors. I will tell Kenny Duttweiler that I found a new person to help with my next rebuild.
Jeff
1965 140 Corsa
1968 140 Monza convertible 4 speed
1965 Corsa Convertible
1986 Buick GN V6 600hp

66vairguy
Posts: 1333
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by 66vairguy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:31 am

Corvair oil pressure spec. is 35-40PSI. Typically 38PSI hot.

Your 20PSI on the bench was the first indication of a problem, either gauge, point of measurement, or engine.

A stock pump at room temperature with 10W30 will start to indicate pressure at about the equivalent of 200 engine RPM and should hit about 40-45 PSI @ room temperature at the equivalent of 600 engine RPM.

Was your "zero" pressure measured with a gauge or are you relying on the oil pressure switch?

notched
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by notched » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:04 am

gnrand wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:18 am
notched wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:49 am
Was that housing that Starr Cooke sold you glass beaded? All the housings he has listed on Ebay have been. Fastest way to trash an engine
Thanks for all your kind words and an education on Buick motors. I will tell Kenny Duttweiler that I found a new person to help with my next rebuild.
Jeff
You're welcome :tu:
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

gnrand
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Wildomar,Ca

Re: Oil pump housing

Unread post by gnrand » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:13 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:31 am
Corvair oil pressure spec. is 35-40PSI. Typically 38PSI hot.

Your 20PSI on the bench was the first indication of a problem, either gauge, point of measurement, or engine.

A stock pump at room temperature with 10W30 will start to indicate pressure at about the equivalent of 200 engine RPM and should hit about 40-45 PSI @ room temperature at the equivalent of 600 engine RPM.

Was your "zero" pressure measured with a gauge or are you relying on the oil pressure switch?
I thought solid 20 psi with a cordless drill motor was pretty good. In any case going from 20 on the bench to zero is a big jump.
Measuring with the gauge that is tied into the pressure switch. My indicator light also came on.
1965 140 Corsa
1968 140 Monza convertible 4 speed
1965 Corsa Convertible
1986 Buick GN V6 600hp

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