Proposed Concours d'Elegance Scoring Change

[SteveInMarietta]

For ~6 months I have been trying to get a reasonable response from Corsa to a proposed Concours d'Elegance scoring change. My basic request was that the proposal be considered and if rejected, provide an explanation of why the current system is better. I had originally proposed the rule change last August to the chair of the Concours Committee, but was basically told "this is how we do it" without any serious consideration of the proposal. I subsequently sent a letter with the proposal on Sept 28 to the full Board, and have not heard anything since. I understand that the Board has to deal with many issues, and I know that the Board is trying to do better, but the lack of response reinforces the general perception that Corsa does not know how to respond to members in an effective and timely fashion.

So to keep the issue alive, I thought I would share the proposal and rationale on the forum for general discussion. Some of this is taken from the letter I sent to the Board.

The issue of concern is the way overall scores are calculated for vehicles trailered or driven to the convention. Trailering is considered in the scoring because a vehicle that is driven or open-trailered might be dirtier or have suffered road damage and is at a disadvantage compared to one that is close-trailered to the event. According to the Concours d’Elegance rule book, participants “shall indicate how their vehicle arrived at the competition as this will indicate the bonus points earned: none for enclosed trailer, 50 points for an open trailer, and 100 points if driven” (pg 3). There is no other explanation of the bonus point system. Since the overall score is calculated based upon 10,000 points, these additional points represent 0.5% and 1% of the overall score.

The problem with the current system
The additional points do not function as “bonus” points added to the judges' score, but the issue is not simply about the terminology. Because of the way the scores are calculated, the judges' score for trailered vehicles is reduced in the overall score. This is because the judges’ score, at most, amounts to 9900 points (99%) but the “overall concours score” is calculated based upon 10,000 points (=100%) with the additional points added to the scores for driven and open-trailered vehicles. However, the consequence of this system is that the compared to the judges’ score, the overall score is lowered 1% for a closed trailered vehicle and 0.5% for an open trailered vehicle. To put it in other terms, the scores of trailered vehicles are penalized.

Proposed revision
It is my belief that, however it arrives at the convention, the vehicle should at a minimum receive the judges' score – this reflects the condition of the vehicle. If Corsa wishes to compensate vehicles for the hazards of the highway while driving to the convention, then the judges' scores for those vehicles should be enhanced instead of penalizing the scores of trailered vehicles. This can be simply accomplished by calculating the judges’ score out of 10,000 points (making it =100%) and then adding the additional points to the scores of driven vehicles. In this system a “perfect” closed-trailered vehicle would receive a 100% overall score and a “perfect” driven vehicle would receive 101%; but of course, most vehicle would receive scores less than 100%.

I open the floor for discussion.

Steve

[sethracer]

Steve - I don't have an issue with your proposal. You followed the proper method for any proposed change, to go to the Committee Chair for the proposed change. In this case that is Ray Morales, the Corsa Concours chair. Did he give you an official response? If no action was taken (sounds like it), then writing to the Board was the proper route. The Board members do listen to the members, as should Ray. It is certainly good to propose the info publicly, like on this forum. I suggest you contact one of the Board members in your region, personally, and ask him to bring it up at the next Corsa board meeting. If the Board has had a chance to address it, they should also have provided an official reply. "No action" might be their response, But "no response" is not an adequate action.

[sweet66monza]

I 100% agree with your proposal! I did not realize I will be penalized for trailering to the event. With hopes of a high score, it is good to know a perfect score is not obtainable due to the trailer. Personally, in my opinion they should judge like (either CCCA or AACA, I dont precisely recall which and couldnt find the bylaws in a hurry) as no deductions for flaws from regular light use so long as the problems are maintained (rock chips that have been properly touched up for example), and also zero deductions from damage that occured on the way to the show. This one in particular really gets my vote, as my last show with my turbo Corsa, the morning started with $5500 damage to my left quarter panel while we were waiting to be parked at the event.

Hopefully a few small changes in favor of the participants will happen, and regardless, I am looking forward to the opportunity to be judged.

[66vairguy]

And this is why I, and others, avoid judging competitions. Let me know when the smoke clears ---

[vairmech]

I remember way back when I was a board member and this issue actually came up, I voted on it. The main reasoning given at the time was to encourage people to drive their Corvairs to events. If your only contention is semantics on how the scoring is done I have to say look at the results and have the cars been placed where they belong regarding awards? Also if you have a true trailer Queen your car will place in the top anyway, bonus, no bonus or even up scoring. I know this to be true because I trailered a restored car, that is driven locally, to Springfield. After the fact of scoring I think the car received something like 95-97 points? It got Senoirs the first time it was ever shown! So, if the bonus/penalty points didn't exist would the car have gotten 96-98 points? It still would have been promoted to Senoirs division.
So does the wording need to be changed to reflect what it really is doing? Or does it matter?

My thoughs are if 2 cars tie for the same points, one was trailered and the other driven to the event I would give the driven vehicle the nod for extra points or the win. But keep in mind, there is NO outright winner, you get a Silver, Bronze or Gold award if you score high enough.

[whubbell]

The issue is one of fairness and perception. To better illustrate the problem, take a look at any of the recent Communique convention issues where the Concours results are posted - with their scores. For this purpose, lets use the 2022 convention results - top three scores were:
99.0
97.68
97.46 (full disclosure - this was my car)

Now when you look at these scores, you assume they are all based off of the same scoring system (99/100, 97.68/100, 97.46/100, etc.), but really, given the way they do it, their actual judged scores could be any of the following:

Image 3-10-25 at 7.21 AM.jpeg (46.7 KiB) Viewed 1317 times

OK, so what does this mean? It means when you look at the final scores you really have no idea how the cars actually compared with each other, because the awarding of the "bonus points" is hidden. In the above example, the #1 car always has the highest judged score, no matter how it got there, but the #2 and #3 cars could switch places depending on means of transport to the Concours field.

The trailer "bonus" is, in essence, a "home field advantage" - if you live close enough to the convention to drive your car there without damage, you get the bonus.

BUT, the scoring system is also misleading in another way. We are all conditioned to think of these scores as percentages - thus you think that a score of 99 means 99 out of 100. But the judges are actually only using a 99 point scale with the "bonus" point being added afterwards. Therefore, you don't know whether a posted score of 99 is a "perfect" car (99 out of 99 with NO "bonus") or an "almost perfect" car (98/99 plus a "bonus" point).

Imagine the day when two "perfect" cars show up on the field - NO judged points taken off for either car, but one was trailered and the other driven (because the driven car's owner was a local who only had to drive a few miles to get to the show field). The "driven" car has a published score of 100 while the trailered car has a published score of 99.5 or 99 (depending on the type of trailer). The reader is left thinking that the driven car is actually better than the trailered car, when in fact the judges thought there were both "perfect".

OK, we probably won't ever see two "perfect" cars on the field at the same time, but this same scenario certainly happens all the time with somewhat lower scores, and it certainly does occasionally make some difference in the final awards.

Also, imagine trying to explain the scoring system to somebody else. Ugh. Is a "95" car really a 95, 94.5, or 94 car? Or maybe it's really a 95.96 car? Wait! What? How did I get 95.96 out of 95 you ask? Well, if the car was enclosed trailered (no bonus point) and judged score was 95 on a 99 point scale, then 95/99 = 95.9595959595... = 95.96%. See how confusing it gets?

I find it contradictory for CORSA to insist that the CONCOURS judging is based strictly on fit and finish (and not about "correctness", "stock", etc.) and yet make an EXCEPTION based on how the car arrives on the Concours field.

[SteveInMarietta]

Thanks Bill for an additional explanation of the problem in the current scoring system. Yes, the issue is not just semantics.

But why can't I get a response from the Corsa Board? I don't like to criticize Corsa, but the lack of communication is very frustrating. And since I don't like to just complain, so I'll facilitate with a few potential responses that I believe anyone would find acceptable:

(begin like this)
"Hi Steve,
Sorry for the delayed response to the issue you raised about the Concours scoring system."
(now choose one of the following)
A. "It's on the agenda to be discussed on (fill in date)" and maybe be transparent by adding "Would you like to join us?"
B. "It's currently being discussed and we anticipate reaching a decision by (fill in a date)" and maybe seek additional information by adding "Could you join us to answer a few questions?"
C."We discussed the matter and opted to stay with the current system for the following reasons (and then explain why the current system is better) "
D."We discussed the matter, and will be updating the scoring system as follows: (fill in explanation)"
E. (Try it yourself - fill in your own response here).

It just takes one member of the Corsa Board to write such a message.

Steve

[jimbrandberg]

In another place it was written that there is a Concours committee but no one knows who, if anyone, is on it beyond the Chairman.
I am not a CORSA insider but from what I've seen and heard, I believe one is not going anywhere with Concours changes without Larry Claypool on board. I could be wrong and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

One of the strengths of the Concours discipline anywhere is consistency which of course means resistance to change.
The opinion that an extra point for a car driven to the event is a bonus for the local fellow certainly seems valid. Folks are actually driving Corvairs less and less these days although a CORSA convention is the place to see the faithful.
It would be interesting to propose doing away with it and see who emerges as someone seriously involved in Concours who is also seriously involved in driving their Corvair. That person or those people may not be on the Internet. The cliche that they're a dying breed seems morose by the reality.

[cnicol]

Whether the points are added after judging or subtracted after judging doesn't really matter except to the person with the perfect, trailered car looking for that perfect score; a rare to nonexistent case. In the end, point total determines the winner.

If a contestant is on the edge between silver and gold, I'd rather see the quality car remain in gold, so that's a valid point for adding rather than subtracting.

The "local car that's driven to the event" issue could be solved by implementing a minimum qualifying distance, such as 200 miles.

[whubbell]

We are missing the bigger picture here; whether points are added or subtracted for trailering a car, the final score is altered from the original intent - to determine how the car compares to the hypothetical "perfect" car. Why should it matter how the car arrives on the judging field, so long as it meets operational and physical standards? Why is a car deemed more or less "perfect" base on how many miles it did (or did not) drive to get to the show? The ONLY reason the trailer "bonus" or "penalty" (take your pick) exists is because back when the cars were actually competing against each other for trophy positions some folks were upset that some members could afford to arrive with their cars already cleaned and prepped while others had to risk dirt and damage by driving their vehicles there. But so what? If the goal now is to truly judge the cars against the standard of perfection, why should it matter how they arrived at that condition? Why should an immaculate car, protected by enclosed trailer, be downgraded in evaluation? Are we saying we really don't appreciate the immaculate car? If so, why even bother to have a Concours at all?

FWIW, no other car club adds or subtracts points for trailering a car to a show. In fact, they don't even ask the question.

[joelsplace]

I agree. Condition of the car should be all that matters.