Torque converter disconnect from engine

[corvden]

Hi,
Am having great difficulty undoing the three bolts that attach to the triangle to disconnect torque converter. Access cover removed, starter motor removed have successfully undone 2 bolts but the 3rd bolt partly undone, but now the nut behind spins, cannot remove/retighten bolt as cannot stop nut behind from spinning, very limited space to put tools to stop nut turning. Have sprayed with lubricant. Car is a 67, have tried various means, all to no success.
I presume this has happened to others, whilst looking at Forum could not find any suggestions, any suggestions welcome.
Cheers Dennis

[Frank DuVal]

Happens. Bad day, but happens. Did the bolt loosen at all before the nut popped loose?

The worst case, drop the entire drivetrain out of the car, separate the engine from the differential on the floor, being cautious that the shafts between the torque converter and the transmission will stick in the TC and (just like an input shaft on a manual) cause you to move the engine a long distance (24"?) away from the differential before everything is free. Untill free, you need to keep everything in alignment right, left, up, down so not to bend/break something or damage a seal.

Then you can use some bent wrenches or other tricks to hold the nut and remove the bolt.

[corvden]

Thanks Frank,
Had given up dropping only engine, so have dropped the lot out of the car. Car is on jack stands in a double garage but with space of a single, currently engine/transmission under car. Have redone up other two bolts, the problem one is about 1/4 undone, but I can't tighten or loosen without torque converter nut rotating behind triangle.
Anyway, had enough today will attack again tomorrow with hopefully a fresher mind.
Cheers Dennis

[Dennis66]

It's been a good 13 years since I removed an automatic engine, but you might have better access to the flex plate bolt (and nut) from the opening under the right side of the bell housing. It's going to be tricky getting a wrench on that nut because of the welds, but once you can see in there good you should be able to figure it out Dennis

[jimbrandberg]

At this point I would separate the powertrain by leaving the TC attached to the engine and then deal with the bolt and welded nut.
I would have done the same thing if desiring to leave the differential and transmission in the chassis.
As someone already mentioned I would probably try getting a needle nose vice grips or something on the weld nut through the cooling air hole on the right side. I suppose grinding the head off the bolt would be another possible method.
I just don't remember offhand how much is accessible through the different bell housing openings.

The only way I attempt removing the engine only these days with the rear hiked up in the air and the front lowered. I only do this with my bigger 4-legged jack stands. Sometimes it won't droop enough on its own so I have to use a scissors jack on top of the differential and I cringe a little at the stress I'm putting on the front 2 rubber mounts.

Disconnecting the LM suspension feels a little daunting when considering methodss, especially with '65 1/4" axle bolts. I replace the 7/16 hex head bolts with Grade 8 3/8 hex head flange bolts I have special for the occasion. The regular bolts, the hex is so shallow and if you round it off you've got bigger problems, break it off and your problems are bigger still. I may reconsider Grade 5 next time in case I ever have to drill one out. It certainly helps if it all hasn't been together for 60 years.

Speaking of bolt grades I wonder about the 3 flex plate to TC bolts. They have the same funny head as the special 11/32 bolts that go into the crankshaft for a flywheel or flex plate. I have a drawer full of the TC bolts now but have just used Grade 5 in the past, they're just 3/8-24. I don't think they get a lot of torque when tightening and I wouldn't think the grade of the weld nuts is much.

I have 3 8x8s for separating powertrains on the floor. The 2 under the engine are about 16" long and I put them under the lower shrouds or exhaust manifold clamps, far enough out the side for the ATV jack in the center. The one under the differential and transmission is about 2' long so I can slide them away along the length. I like to remove the 2 bottom bell housing bolts while it's still in the chassis and they're easy to get to.
I have 2 3/8-16 x 2" set screw studs in the bell housing and differential for alignment when mating them back up again. It helps if they're at slightly different depths so you can engage one at a time. Sometimes they go together right away, sometimes not so much. Not so much is hard for an old guy. My former associate isn't as strong as he looks. Ha.

[Wittsend]

Just to give a little perspective this is how the TC nut is captured. Likely the cage that holds it in place is still intact... to some extent. Thus a regular sized wrench would not slip over to hold it. Maybe you can get a thin adjustable open end wrench in through the access opening to hold it. Or, perhaps there is a metric size that would fit. As a last resort perhaps you can force wedges in from either side and keep it from turning.

Unfortunately I don't recall what the bell housing access opening reveals. And this is likely a lot harder to do with a "regular" Corvair. My wagon has an large cover behind the rear seat (albeit 17 screws to remove) but I then have a top view of everything.

[guthrie1068]

I just had a similar problem with mine. I think I ended up slipping a screwdriver into the area behind the nut and pushing it into the square hole that the bracket it supposed to hold it in. Once the nut was "captured" in the converter bracket, or maybe it was wedged enough so that it wouldn't spin, I just loosened the bolt out. I accessed it with the engine in the car, from the top access point. Ken Hand had a bunch of those converter nut things, so I got another one from him. I hope this makes sense, it seems sort of hard to explain in words without using some kind of hand signals.

[joelsplace]

I can't see any way you could access the bolt side from the large lower hole on the bell housing but you can get to the nut side. (I think)

[corvden]

Thank you very much for suggestions,
Currently I am a bit overwhelmed, think I have bitten off more than I can chew, knew this was going to be a difficult project for me to remove engine & partially strip down, at least remove all tin ware, fan & heads.
Even something relatively simple, like pulling the fan off, has me stumped, as I don't want to break it by levering off the bearing.
I will chip away slowly when my confidence returns.
Cheers Dennis

[jimbrandberg]

I had talked above about the nut being welded which is wrong. As others have said it's captured in a cage. Squeezing the cage tight against the square nut with a needle nose vice grip may be another tactic if you can get in there.

When the fan is stuck on the bearing hub I turn my small ball peen hammer sideways to rap up on the fan. Rap a little, turn to a new spot until it starts to walk up and off. Perhaps a lever between the top cover and fan would be another tactic. The hub has a locating spot where it's a little bigger towards the bottom.

I hope you're not dismayed and will hang in there. You'll get it. Sometimes poking at a project a little every day works better than waiting for a big chunk of time, especially when it's not going well.

It's a bugger when you're doing it for a living and a small thing comes up that takes a lot of time. I'm afraid people won't understand. In my Invoice and Notes document I'll say "Removed torque convertor with some difficulty". It's like child birth where you forget about the pain later.

[Dennis66]

I remember a much younger self doing an R&R on an International Harvester truck. On the work order I put "R&R clutch" on each line. My supervisor brought the work order back and said "the Manager said that's not a good description". I turned th e work order over and started a detailed "remove XX bolts holding __. Remove bolts holding __, Remove..." Supervisor came back and said manager really liked it. I said "Good, it only took me 45 minutes to write all that down.". Next one was "R&R clutch." I did as a little older mechanic tell a manager during a time dispute that sometimes it takes a half hour or more to remove ONE bolt when there are problems. Sometimes longer. Then there were the times I painstakingly drilled down the center of a broken off 10 MM (shank) bolt, cut down a hacksaw blade, and cut the broken off piece from the center hole outwards into thirds that I could extract. It was difficult, but much better than removing the head and sending it to a machine shop. I did quite a few Cummins heads that way. Easy outs were out of the question.

To bring it back to THIS issue, I suggest you figure out how you're going to secure this caged bolt, oil the threads good, LIGHTLY TIGHTEN it, then oil the threads and back it out. Repeat as necessary.

[Brizo]

Corvden, I've this situation a few times where the bolt is only part way out. I was able to get a small "crow foot" pry bar ( or maybe make a tool to work) under the head of the bolt to pry up on it, which will hopefully keep the nut in its square hole as you slowly turn the bolt by hand.

[RKF]

Corvden, I've this situation a few times where the bolt is only part way out. I was able to get a small "crow foot" pry bar ( or maybe make a tool to work) under the head of the bolt to pry up on it, which will hopefully keep the nut in its square hole as you slowly turn the bolt by hand.

That was my thought as well.

[jfreez]

I have never done this task before, so I am just throwing an idea out there.
What about cutting the bolt or nut with an air chisel? Would it run the risk of damaging something that is not easy to replace?

a cheap air chisel has gotten me out of a lot of tough spaces in the past.

[Frank DuVal]

Force would be on the crankshaft and torque converter bushing. Plus the flex plates are known to crack, this might help it crack. So, I would avoid it.

Yes, the air chisel has helped on many other rust induced issues!

Thin saw blade, like a hack saw, oscillating tool or smooth running Sabre (jig) saw, or even one of those rare air powered body saws might work without too much bearing or bushing damage if the blade can fit between the head of the bolt and the flex plate. Trying to cut the head off will be a long time....

[corvden]

Hi All,
Thank you all for your suggestions & encouragement.

I finally was able to remove the torque converter bolt with a chisel!

I slid a 1" wide chisel behind the nut, thinking with a wider area on the casting it shouldn't crack, I was able to hold the nut still, while undoing the bolt, also didn't crack the casting. Was very happy!

At least I have the engine & transmission on separate wheeled boards & have commenced further pull apart of engine.

Next week I will attempt to remove heads, fan (still doesn't budge) & the cover beneath it.

Cheers Dennis