1963 Monza 900. Will not idle

[russellautomotive]

We are working on a 63 non turbo with Electronic distributor. Installed tune-up kit( plugs, cap, rotor and wires)purchased from California Corvair. Rebuilt both carbs and installed .250 thick heat insulator. New fuel pump from Oriellys. We followed the engine tuning procedure that we found on youtube (OEM training video) that this forum posted. Before and after doing all these parts changing and adjustments, engine runs fine going down the road but will not Idle. Vacuum on left carb is a little jumpy but is around 5 in., right carb hold steady vacuum reading 5 in. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thank you.

[Dennis66]

First thing: Beware of new fuel pumps. Nobody's fuel pumps can be trusted. Many have failure (leaking) within just a few miles (although SOME people have had luck with them). Clark's is now testing a new manufacture fuel pump for durability. It is expected to be released this summer. Many fuel pumps out here are for the earlies models (1960, maybe 61) and the push rod is just a little too long. Results: ruptured diaphragm. Others have diaphragms that do not hold up to ethanol. Results of failed fuel pump: Possible fuel leaking into engine oil (can ruin bearings. CAM BEARINGS ARE NOT SERVICABLE), Other possible results FIRE. If you're a shop doing this for a customer - BEWARE.
Carbs: vacuum leaks can be a problem. Many of us use a base gasket, the insulator, and another base gasket. Worn throttle shafts are a common problem and a source of vacuum leaks. Three vacuum hoses: One on the left (driver) carb, horizntal nipple, goes to choke vacuum break. Other (vertical) should be capped. Right carb: horizontal to carb break, vertical to vacuum advance. are al carb parts CORRECT? These carbs often have a mismatch of parts inside. Special attention to the "cluster" (part in center of venturi). This has the idle jet and they are often clogged. Run wires through all holes. There is a long drawn out procedure for setting idle adjustment a Unisyn vacuum tool is also best used to measure what is actually passing through the carb. Possible vacuum leaks at balance tube that goes from front pad under one carb to the pad under the other carb. If the hose coupler is brittle or soggy, they need replaced. Possible vacuum leaks at trans modulator (automatics) and at vacuum advance. Is vacuum advance working correctly? Realistically, you should have around 15'' vacuum at each carb. Mine had low vacuum and I ended up replacing throttle shafts and bushings, base gaskets and that corrected things. I also opted for an electric fuel pump (yet to be installed, not really driving car yet. Dennis

[bbodie52]

We are working on a 63 non turbo with Electronic distributor. Installed tune-up kit( plugs, cap, rotor and wires)purchased from California Corvair. Rebuilt both carbs and installed .250 thick heat insulator. New fuel pump from Oriellys. We followed the engine tuning procedure that we found on youtube (OEM training video) that this forum posted. Before and after doing all these parts changing and adjustments, engine runs fine going down the road but will not Idle. Vacuum on left carb is a little jumpy but is around 5 in., right carb hold steady vacuum reading 5 in. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Manual transmission or Powerglide automatic??? What kind of "electronic distributor"? Pertronix Ignitor, Pertronix Ignitor II, Crane Cams/FAST XR-700? (The Pertronix Ignitor and Ignitor II uses a magnetic trigger design, while the Crane Cams/FAST XR-700 uses an optical (LED) trigger). What kind/model of ignition coil?

There are compatibility issues with different ignition systems and ignition coil combinations. The FAST XR-700 electronic module may overheat if powered by a full 12VDC power source. (It is designed for a voltage that has ben reduced by the presence of a factory ballast resistor). The Pertronix Ignitor or Ignitor II module recommends a full 12VDC power source with the ballast resistor bypassed.

The Pertronix Ignitor II has a problem with improper ignition pulse sensing in the distributor at very low RPM (as with a six-cylinder engine running at an idle speed that has been slowed by a Powerglide automatic transmission in DRIVE). The Pertronix Ignitor II has been known to "misread" the magnetic trigger ignition pulses at a slow idle, which cause a misfire and engine stall on a six-cylinder Corvair with the automatic transmission in DRIVE.

Some high-performance ignition coils have an ultra-low primary resistance of less than the normal 1.5 ohms. For example, a Pertronix Flame-Thrower II coil has a primary resistance of only 0.6 ohms. A Pertronix Ignitor II ignition module can handle this low primary coil resistance and associated high ignition coilcurrent level, but the Ignitor I cannot.

What all of this amounts to is the need for a proper ignition component selection, compatibility, and power source that is dictated by the engine/transmission combination, the presence or removal of the ballast resistor or resistor wire, and the compatibility of the individual ignition components selected for your installation. These details are usually discussed in the manufacturer's installation instructions,but important details may be overlooked or misunderstood. The wrong combination or wiring configuration may result in a malfunction.

Please let us know the specific details of your electronic ignition model and type, the ignition coil model and type, and the transmission type in your Corvair. This information can help with the analysis of the malfunction in your Corvair installation.

[russellautomotive]

Thank you for the input. Where did you purchace shaft and bushing from?

[russellautomotive]

It is Automatic transmission. I believe it is the ignition system you are talking about. Coil Says Pertronix Flame Thrower 11. What ignition system do you recommend?

[cnicol]

It is Automatic transmission. I believe it is the ignition system you are talking about. Coil Says Pertronix Flame Thrower 11. What ignition system do you recommend?

What color is the ignition module? Black = Pertronix-1 which is good with the automatic trans but requires an ignition coil & ballast wire that together add up to 3-ohms.

If the Pertronix module is Red, that's a Pertronix-2 which is not usually compatible with a Corvair automatic trans but has the capability to handle low-resistance ignition coils. Pertronix-2 units loose sync at idle RPM and begin firing on every other cylinder so RPM drops so low the engine quits.

As for Flamethrower-II coils, they come in a variety of resistance ratings from 0.6 to 3.0 ohms. The actual part number, along with the presence or bypass of the in-harness resistor wire are also factors that must be matched to each other and to the module.

Onto carburetors:
Corvairs have idle jets. If they're clogged the engine won't idle when the throttles are closed. If there's no response to idle mixture screws (opening or closing them doesn't affect the engine) it's likely they're clogged.
Here's the idle jet:

carburetor venturi cluster.jpg (10.53 KiB) Viewed 323 times

Also, make sure your base timing is correct at idle speeds. If someone has set the timing with the engine at say, 1500 RPM, rather than 500/600 RPM, that 1500 number puts the distributor into it's mechanical advance and the timing will be well below spec at idle speed and it won't idle.

[Dennis66]

Where did you purchace shaft and bushing from?

The shafts (I replaced choke shafts too) came from Clark's Corvair parts. These carbs have the brass shafts running straight on the cast aluminum bores. Often, just the shafts are worn. You can check this by trying the up and down play, then remove the butterfly, slide the shaft to an unworn section and try the play again. You might get lucky. I have a 1962 4 speed car, that means carb shafts were rotating with each shift. The automatic you are working on may have had an easier life. I ended up making a jig and drilling out my throttle shaft bores (this has to be precise for the throttle to close properly). The bushings I used are actually a Briggs and Stratton valve guide bushing - same size as our throttle shafts.
NOTE that the butterfly screws often break when you try to remove them (they are staked). Sometimes a little heat helps. The shafts come with new screws. Most of us use Loctite to secure the new screws. Dennis

[bbodie52]

» Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:25 pm

It is Automatic transmission. I believe it is the ignition system you are talking about. Coil Says Pertronix Flame Thrower 11. What ignition system do you recommend?

The symptoms you originally described had me guessing that your Corvair would be running an automatic transmission and that someone selected a Pertronix Ignitor II for the car — without knowing about the compatibility issue with a slow idle speed (approximately 600 RPM in DRIVE/REVERSE). The six-cylinder Corvair engine will satisfy the Pertronix Ignitor II minimum trigger impulses in NEUTRAL, but in DRIVE/REVERSE the load from the torque converter slows the idle speed enough to drop below the minimum number of trigger impulses, and the Ignitor iI begins to malfunction — causing the engine to stall when you shift the transmission to DRIVE. Increasing the idle speed somewhat so that the idle speed is around 800 RPM in DRIVE mlay keep you ignition system functioning, but the idle speed in NEUTRAL may jump up to around 900-1000 RPM! This may cause an unacceptable jerk of the vehicle every time you shift into DRIVE or REVERSE.

You could try contacting Pertronix technical support for suggestions, but they may indicate that the purchase and installation of a Pertronix Ignitor I will be needed to resolve your vehicle compatibility issues. Perhaps they may be able to offer some kind of exchange to maintain good customer relations, but I don't really know if such an offer may be made.

PERTRONIX CUSTOMER SERVICE & TECHNICAL SUPPORT

https://pertronixbrands.com/

Phone: 909-599-5955

Coil compatibility with a Pertronix Ignitor I or a FAST XR-700 means you should run a 1.5 ohm version (with the Corvair external 1.8 OHM ballast resistor wire) or a 3.0 ohm coil without the external ballast resistor wire in the circuit. The Pertronix Ignitor I module prefers a full 12 VDC power feed,but the FAST XR-700 module is designed to be powered by the reduced voltage delivered with a ballast resistor wire in the circuit. As shown in the diagrams below, your wiring configuration and component choices can be wired to satisfy the needs of the ignition control device and the coil. Only the 45000 volt 0.6 ohm coil (Model 45001) would cause problems, as it is not compatible with the Pertronix Ignitor I or the FAST XR-700, due to the high current levels passing through the 0.6 ohm coil Primary winding. (This ultra-high output 45,000 volt 0.6 ohm coil is definitely NOT needed for the Corvair engine — with the Corvair engine's relatively low compression ratio and low maximum RPM engine speed. Ignition module compatibility with the 0.6 ohm coil mandates the installation of a Pertronix Ignitor II or a FAST XR-3000 to handle the high coil current levels).


The alternate diagram retains the GM external ballast resistor wire for the associated Delco coil, while displaying a fairly simple resistor wire bypass for the ignitor module ONLY.







The Pertronix installation instructions clearly specify the removal or bypass of the Corvair ballast resistor wire from the ignition circuit. If you measure low voltage powering the Pertronix ignition coil and Ignitor I electronic module, then reconfigure your vehicle wiring to correct the deficiency and follow the instructions from Pertronix! (If you trust Pertronix engineers to properly design and manufacture the ignition components, then you should also trust and follow their published installation instructions as well)!

The Pertronix installation instructions clearly specify a bypass of the ballast resistor wire to power their 3.0 ohm Flamethrower I ignition coil and their Ignitor I ignition module. Take Pertronix technicians at their word and follow/correct your vehicle wiring to match the newly installed Pertronix hardware.

PERTRONIX IGNITOR AND COIL INSTALLATION TROUBLESHOOTING

WHAT APPLICATIONS ARE COVERED WITH THE PERTRONIX FLAME-THROWER COILS?
Our Flame-Thrower coils are designed specifically for compatibility with our Ignitor 1, 2 and 3 units. However, the Flame-Thrower 1 Coil may also be used with a point type system or any other system that calls for a 1.5 or 3.0-ohm coil.

MY VEHICLE IS MISFIRING OR BREAKING DOWN UNDER LOAD. WHAT SHOULD I DO?
This problem is NEARLY ALWAYS associated with low voltage at the unit, preventing the unit from operating correctly. The unit is actually turning off, and back on as the coil charges and releases energy. The best possible remedy for this problem is to wire the Ignitor unit's RED WIRE directly to a switched 12-volt source away from any voltage reduced circuit, such as a resistor wire or ballast resistor. These circuits usually are in the wire from the ignition switch to the coil. The Ignitor™ lead (red wire) can go directly to the ignition switch or any other "switched" source on the fuse panel. The coil will still need a minimum of 1.5 ohms of resistance, either internally such as the Flame-Thrower or in the form of a resistor wire or ballast resistor. We think you will find when you have these "breaking up" problems, low voltage is the culprit!
We also highly recommend seeking a qualified auto-electrician to make this adjustment for you.

I have read many comments on this Forum and on other technical forums that continue to debate whether or not to bypass the original vehicle ballast resistor wire to provide full voltage to the Pertronix components. Some declare the Pertronix ignition coils to be "junk", and the Pertronix installation and troubleshooting instructions to be "trash". I would suggest that if you are going to trust the Pertronix hardware quality enough to actually purchase it for your Corvair, then you should also trust the installation instructions published by that company enough to follow the instructions to the letter — instead of selectively ignoring the bits and pieces that some in the debate disagree with. I would suggest following the instructions and guidelines provided by Pertronix and give them the "benefit of the doubt" (the state of accepting something/someone as honest or deserving of trust even though there are doubts), to see if their instructions actually clear up your operating problems.

It is harder for the voltage to jump the spark plug gap when the engine is under load and combustion chamber pressures increase. If you begin with a weak spark that is allowing the engine to idle, but performance worsens as you try to accelerate, your ignition system may be running poorly due to inadequate voltage from the vehicle. Use a multimeter to confirm the voltages and grounds. Alternately, if you don't have a multimeter but suspect the possibility of low source voltage from the vehicle to the coil, you could prove the theory by simply running a temporary bypass wire directly from the battery positive terminal to the coil positive terminal and then taking the car on a test drive! If the car runs well under this test scenario, you have in-effect confirmed the suspicions and can then move forward to make a permanent change by bypassing the resistor wire in the vehicle wiring harness.


CORVAIR COMBINED WIRING SCHEMATIC DIAGRAMS

viewtopic.php?t=12968

[russellautomotive]

Changed module and coil to black module and 3 ohm coil. idle jets are clear. Idle is better. Will only run on about 40 deg timing. Put air cleaners, now has oil coming out of dipstick tube. Seeking more advise. Thank you.

[russellautomotive]

Changed module and coil to black module and 3 ohm coil. idle jets are clear. Idle is better. Will only run on about 40 deg timing. Put air cleaners, now has oil coming out of dipstick tube. Seeking more advise. Thank you.

[Frank DuVal]

Oil coming out of dipstick tube is from excess crankcase pressure.

1. blowby from worn rings
2. pressure from clogged PCV system
3. hole in piston

Check PCV system first, easiest to do.
Then compression test.

BTW, excessive timing to the point of knock/ping/pre-combustion rattle can put a hole through a piston fast.

I've seen it happen on a fresh rebuild!

[russellautomotive]

ok Thank you. I am in process of check and cleaning pcv system now.

[russellautomotive]

How do you recommend checking and cleaning pcv system? I am not sure I understand how this pcv system works or what and where all components for system are located.

[66vairguy]

How do you recommend checking and cleaning pcv system? I am not sure I understand how this pcv system works or what and where all components for system are located.

See post viewtopic.php?p=125155&hilit=positive+crankcase#p125155

It has a PDF article you can read about how the PCV system works followed by helpful comments by others.

[Dennis66]

I had sent a DM with my personal number to offer assistance. One thing that will help us help YOU is to post a few pictures of the engine. One picture showing the PCV, which should be just in front of the fan area. Another picture would be a good picture of the crankshaft pulley. Why? Because over the course of 60+ years, so much has been swapped out or altered that it could possibly not even be the original engine configuration (there are different PCV systems). The other is the pulley. While a 1963 originally came with a solid stamped steel pulley, 1964 and later (except the 95 HP) had a two piece harmonic damper pulley (some earlier cars have been upgraded to the balancers). The old balancer pulleys can, and often do slip and this could be your timing issue. Dennis

[russellautomotive]

Next question. I have low compression on #2. Leak down test results - loosing 70% past exhaust valve. We did run this engine on a couple test drives with timing at 40 deg. I was going to remove valve spring and attempt to reseat valve without removing head if it is just carbon build up. However after what Ive learned here, I wonder if I might have a burnt valve? Any advise and direction? Thanks you.