Ignitor or Ignitor II

[Amagalla]

Hello all. I'm wondering if it's worth the $40 difference to get the Pertronix Ignitor II instead of the regular Ignitor for a 65 140 hp.. Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Tony

[joelsplace]

Go with the Ignitor 1 for sure. If you have an automatic you can't use a 2 anyway and I've heard of a lot more 2s failing. If you want a step up from the Ignitor 1 get a Fast.

[gbullman]

If you don’t mind a separate box I’d recommend the FAST XR700. Highly recommended in the Corvair community and installs and work fine. Also just uses original wiring and coil.

I had an Ignitor I in the SBC of my 55 Chevy, worked fine for 10 years, about 9K miles then got intermittent for a few hundred miles and quit. I had an Ignitor (don’t know if it was I or II) in a 79 MGB that worked fine during the 4 1/2 years I owned the car.

Attaching a photo of XR700 external box.

[caraholic4life]

When Seth Emerson introduced the complete Electronic Distributor back in 2014, I purchase two of them.
I did this to show my support for his product as well as the effort he went to in order to get these to market.
My plan was to install one in my '65 Monza coupe and use the other for a later project.
Unfortunately for me, I have yet to install either as circumstances have drastically slowed my progress on these projects.
As of this moment, both of these new Distributors are on a shelf waiting to be put to use.

When I bought my '64 Greenbrier a few years ago, it needed to be gone through so I took it to the Corvair Ranch as I wanted this work to get done sooner than later.
I gave Jeff a general idea of what I wanted done along with an initial budget and a good amount of discretion to proceed with the work being done on the van.

Two things I hadn't requested but was happy to see done were a conversion from an generator to an alternator and the installation of an electronic ignition.
I have put a little over 3,000 miles on the van since the FAST unit was installed and so far, no complaints.

As it always seems to happen, it took longer for the work to get done and cost more that I had initially wanted it to but...it is on the road and being enjoyed. There are still things to do to get the van where I want it but isn't that always the situation.

[Frank DuVal]

Just say NO to ignitor II for Corvairs. Both forums answer waayy too many "why does my Ignitor II not work right?" questions.

FAST system is good. XR-700 is easy install. I do not recall any questions of "why does my FAST not work right?".

[66vairguy]

Hello all. I'm wondering if it's worth the $40 difference to get the Pertronix Ignitor II instead of the regular Ignitor for a 65 140 hp.. Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Tony

For years it has been documented the Pertronix Ignitor II has a mis fire problem below about 750RPM on SIX cylinder engines. The Corvair PG (automatic) cars idle at around 600 - 700 RPM and they were the first to notice the problem. Petronix is aware (has been for years) and has made NO effort to fix the circuit. I suspect it is about the circuit that prevents overheating the Ignitor II if you leave the ignition key on, BUT the engine is not running. If the Ignitor circuit senses a time too great between cylinder fires it shuts off until it see the sensor active again. This results in every other cylinder NOT firing below about 750RPM. So why does it work for a V8 Chevy PG, because there are more cylinders firing per PRM vs. a six.

The Fast XR-700 has had a good reputation, then about two years ago an "off shore" company bought them up. For awhile there catalog was a mess and you could not get the proper mounting hardware for a Corvair. Only Clark's had the correct kits. Not sure what is going on now.

FINALLY --- DO NOT USE A SPECIAL COIL!!! Both the Ignitor I (just called ignitor) and the Fast XR-700 are designed to power the STOCK Corvair coil and with it's wiring harness ballast! If you need a coil, then buy a quality ignition coil for a 1965 Chevy Impala with the base 283c.i. V8. It is as close to what the 140HP Corvair used that is still available.

Seth Emerson went to a great deal of effort to make a HEI distributor available for the Corvair. Sadly the company he was dealing with decided to sell it under other names if Seth didn't pay a huge single supplier fee. This flooded the market with Corvair distributors with NO support. Also there were quality issues with the HEI electronic module (common now on many HEI distributors) and instead of running the low impedance coil that would be correct Seth advised folks to go with a higher resistance/impedance coil to reduce the chance of the HEI module failure. BTW --- This is a common issue on aftermarket Chevy V8 HEI distributors. A buddy had all kinds of problems until he found a company that makes quality HEI modules as good as or better than the old GM design. Since he spent the money on the better HEI module he has had NO issues.

[Frank DuVal]

[Frank DuVal]

So it might seem unrelated, but I saw a Pertronix "how do I wire this on my 6 volt positive ground" question on the AACA (Antique Automobile Club of America) forum and a person who works on and drives many classic cars said this in response to the first quote:

.When it comes to electronics the risk of frying your ignition because you didn’t want to call them doesn’t make their product bad.

No, but their own lack of adequate engineering, manufacturing & understanding do, even if visiting their headquarters (after the calls didn’t provide solutions) and physically showing the evidence of this to several members of their engineering/management staff, then waiting in the lobby for them to correct the issue, only to have it returned in exactly same incorrect configuration.

And yes, their units are known (& experienced) to suddenly/unexpectedly “die”, so carrying/keeping a spare in the vehicle/on hand is a good advise, but then again, same can be said of all ignition (& other electrical or fuel related auxiliary) systems in vintage cars, especially if traveling long distances with limited access to parts and services.

[bbodie52]

The Pertronix attempts to manufacture a "one product fits all" electronic ignition system upgrade sometimes bumps into too many variables, since all cars in the world were not manufactured with 8-cylinder engines and 12-volt negative ground, point-based ignition systems. They did make some variations, like the one listed below...



PERTRONIX 1545P6 IGNITOR® 6V POS GND ELECTRONIC IGNITION CONVERSION KIT

APPLICATION

PERTRONIX IGNITOR KIT FOR ORIGINAL PRESTOLITE DISTRIBUTORS. 4-CYLINDER, SINGLE POINT, 6-VOLT POSITIVE GROUND.

...And then there are customers who insist on selectively ignoring or disregarding installation guidelines and instructions — thinking that the "know better" — or that installation detail is too much trouble. Or they purchase the incorrect item and still try to make it work!

[Rick4130]

I’ve used the same ignitor 1 with a stock coil for close to 20 years now!

[Frank DuVal]

Yep, Ignitor (not II) and stock coil with the stock engine wiring harness! Trying to reinvent the wheel causes problems.

[Amagalla]

So the flamethrower coil and the stock Impala coil run the same price. Are you saying don't get the flamethrower?

Tony

[Gasman63]

Is flamethrower 1 coil same as original specs or not?

[66vairguy]

Is flamethrower 1 coil same as original specs or not?

First - Petronix says to use a six cylinder coil 40501, 40511 with a 3.0 ohm primary resistance that is INCORRECT as the Corvair used the same ballast as the Chevy V8's. Yes Brad insists it can work IF you remove the ballast, put that destroys the GM design and I have no idea why he insists on pushing his argument.

Second - The Corvair used a number of different Delco coils for different engine HP. The best is mentioned in the following.

The Flamethrower 1 #40001, 40011, 40111 (1.5 ohm for V8's) is not exactly the same as the original Corvair coil specification. The sad fact no coil is. So we use what works the best at this time. Understanding the dynamics of an ignition coil function is amazingly complicated. You can go online and spend hours reading, but unless you want to spend a lot of money upgrading your Corvair ignition, your choice is the basic Impala V8 coil or the Flamethrower I #40001. The typical points, Ignitor I, Fast XR-700 require a coil that goes with the stock Corvair ballast of 1.8 ohms to equal at least 3.0 ohms. GM used about a 1.3 ohm coil and the Flame thrower I is 1.5 ohms. Both are in the "it works range". That is the basics. I've encountered a number of failed Flamethrower coils over the years so I no longer use them.

Bob Helt did a real world test of coils years ago. Doing the math is great, but all designs need to be real world verified and some Corvair folks and Bob Helt built a rig to check how bit a gap a coil would jump using a Corvair ballast and different coils. Granted it was a crude test, but it DID demonstrate the difference in coils available, including the best performing coil - the Delco #200 coil (some GM books call it a #202) used for the 65-66 140HP and turbo engines. It performed better than the Flamethrower 1 coil. Unfortunately the Delco #200 coil is no longer produced, nor is there a reproduction I can find. So the next best thing is the basic 1965 Impala V8 coil. I've used it for years and it works fine right up on all the non-Turbo engines to redline with points, Ignitor, or Fast.

[bbodie52]

First - Petronix says to use a six cylinder coil 40501, 40511 with a 3.0 ohm primary resistance that is INCORRECT as the Corvair used the same ballast as the Chevy V8's. Yes Brad insists it can work IF you remove the ballast, put that destroys the GM design and I have no idea why he insists on pushing his argument.

Eliminating the ignition points destroys the vintage GM design — electronic solid-state transistor-switched coil control does that. If you believe that a "breakerless" ignition system, such as a FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology) or Pertronix system is the right way to go for improved Corvair ignition system reliability, then why do you choose to selectively ignore or disregard the instructions provided by Pertronix? The installation of the FAST or Pertronix electronic control systems necessitates modification of the GM ignition system wiring to match the new electronic components! However, the use of the new electronic switching, sensor-based (optical trigger or magnetic trigger) still retains a portion of the old Corvair design — including the 1.42 ohm ignition coil, the distributor, cap, rotor, and spark plug wires.

Both the FAST and Pertronix systems need a source of voltage to power the electronic module. The most-convenient source for power is the ignition coil positive terminal.

Allison/Crane Cams/FAST knew that the voltage available at the ignition coil positive terminal was not normal vehicle 12-14 VDC power. The vehicle's ballast resistor was designed to drop that voltage down to only about 6-7 VDC. The FAST XR700 electronics took that into consideration, and the designers built the XR700 to operate correctly using only 6-7 VDC as it's power source. In fact, the instructions cautions about removing the ballast resistor from the supply circuit, as this will cause the XR700 to overheat and begin to malfunction if it i powered by a full nominal 12 VDC source! So, with the XR700 module the ballast resistor wire is retained and the Delco 1.42 ohm coil, or an aftermarket 1.5 ohm coil continues to be powered by a nominal 6-7 VDC power source that is reduced by the original ballast resistor wire. The FAST XR700 module was engineered to take that into account.



HOWEVER, the Pertronix Ignitor or Ignitor II modules were designed to run on full 12-14 VDC vehicle power. The voltage that is reduced by the ballast resistor wire is too low. It is at or slightly below the minimum threshold that the Pertronix modules can tolerate. in some cases the Pertronix Ignitor or Ignitor ii may work, and in some cases it may begin to malfunction if the voltage drops so low that the electronic module may malfunction.

The solution that Pertronix decided to adopt was to recommend elimination of the ballast resistor wire from the vehicle ignition circuit. This would provide a full 12-14 VDC power to the Ignitor or Ignitor II when tapping its power from the ignition coil positive terminal.






To keep the ignition coil internal heat down, Pertronix offers two solutions...

1. Power everything without an external ballast resistor, using full 12-14 VDC power. To do this with a six cylinder engine, they recommend switching to a 3.0 ohm coil, which is considered to be optimum for a four or six-cylinder engine and its associated longer coil primary charging cycles related to a coil supporting fewer engine cylinders. (With an original Delco coil, the total primary coil resistance is 1.42 ohms plus 1.8 ohms from the external ballast resistor... 3.22 ohms!) If your installation eliminates the ballast resistor, the Delco coil would run hot, but switching to a Pertronix Flame-Thrower 3.0 ohm coil would bring the coil resistance back down to a nominal 3.0 ohms — keeping the 3.0 ohm Pertronix internal heat buildup under control, while still providing the external Pertronix Ignitor module with the desired nominal 12-14 VDC power for its electronic module!

2. The other way to handle this, if you retain a Delco 1.42 ohm coil, is to wire things up so that the Pertronix ignitor receives power from a bypassed ballast resistor, while the Delco coil gets its power via the original 1.8 ohm ballast resistor wire. This keeps the total coil primary resistance around 3.0 ohms (1.28 ohms to 1.42 ohms (coil) + 1.8 ohms (ballast resistor wire), while tapping before the ballast resistor wire to supply the higher voltage needed by the Pertronix Ignitor module. This is depicted in the final wiring diagram above.

[Frank DuVal]

I am ignoring instructions that do not apply to my Corvairs. I am following the years of successful use of Pertronix Ignitor (1) in thousands of Corvairs with NO modification of engine harness. Lon started selling these in the early 80s IIRC. Why do you insist thousands of people are wrong when their cars run fine?

And the Flamethrower coils have a high failure rate compared to original coils. I have replaced only a handful over the years that failed. Sure I used to buy new ones hoping for a performance improvement, that never came about, until I learned how these Kettering systems worked.