Fuel injection with coil packs

[Zorm]

This subject, I am assuming has, been beaten to death, but I've been thinking. After watching auto anatomy's fuel injected and distributor less ignition, I'm thinking that rout, but a little different.

So, I think the 140 engine I have (65 Corsa Convertible) is a 2.7L? I know there will be folks out there to tell me just go by the FI from American-pi or Corvair EFI, or Clarks, where is the fun in that? I like what AA did using various "junk yard" parts to accomplish his task.

So here is my thought;
my commuter beater is a 03 Hyundai Santa Fe with a 2.7L v6. multiport FI and 3 separate coil packs. I realize it might be sacrilege but, what about getting a set of 140 heads (or 110 heads), machining off the carb mounts. Place some injector bungs close to the intake valves. Maybe the Hyundai fuel rails might come close with the correct spot on the Corvair intake. The Santa Fe uses 4 O2 sensors, can just get that down to 2. It also uses a cam and crank sensor. Crank sensor is easy enough, cam sensor might be challenging. Maybe some more that I am forgetting, again, this is first thoughts. Using the Hyundai's ECU should work, just not a lot of tunability, but if she runs smoother and starts better, might be worth it.

thoughts

[cnicol]

What you're suggesting isn't crazy, I did something similar 25 years ago: Multiport injection from a 2.7L, 140hp Fiero. There were some work-arounds, especially in the coolant temp to cylinder head temp conversion. Ultimately, the fuel map was about right and withing the ECM's ability to compensate.

In your case, the factory ECM is programmed for 170 net hp vs the 140 Corvair's roughly 108 net hp so the Sonata fuel map is going to be challenged, especially when in open loop where it will likely be quite rich. The ECM will be looking for and judging rationality of quite a few sensors and actuators that aren't there so the check-engine light (MIL) will perpetually be "ON".

While the Sonata hardware is quite likely a good fit, making the ECM happy and out of "limp-home" will give you fits. You might want to find out if there's a tuner out there who has "cracked" the Hyundai ECM and could deprogram some of the features, including anti-theft. I wonder if using the factory hardware with a user-programmed aftermarket ECM might be easier. Megasquirt comes to mind.

[66vairguy]

Craig covered it. The Hyundai ECU (or any modern ECU) handles a lot of inputs to control the engine. Some are to keep the driver out of trouble or assist in "emergency" maneuvers. There are folks who know how to manipulate factory software, but it is NOT something the average person can do unless you have a good education in this area.

Today is way past the days of "fooling" the computer with fake sensor inputs.

With some knowledge of injector flow rate at various fuel pressures and how the coil pack is activated, you can use something like a Megasquirt to control things. A camshaft sensor is not needed as that is for cars with variable cam timing. A lookup table relying on throttle position, manifold pressure, engine temperature, engine RPM is reliable. Also an air flow sensor works well, but is more expensive.

Certainly doable, but challenging. If you can't write code in the native language of the system you buy, you are reliant on what the aftermarket manufacture supplies, which can be good if you understand the limitations.

Finally --- The first step is "can it be done", the second step is "how much is this going to cost".

Step 2 is why I still keep the carburetors and distributor going on my old Corvairs. That said I have looked at going computer controlled for a modern turbo set-up. Fun to plan, but reality takes over and I've got other things to do.

Good luck to you and let us know if you get it going.

[Zorm]

Craig, ya got a write up on what you did?, I would rather find the GM/Pontiac stuff. I am assuming you used the throttle body from the Fiero. Was it just fuel delivery or spark too?

thanks guys

[cnicol]

Craig, ya got a write up on what you did?, I would rather find the GM/Pontiac stuff. I am assuming you used the throttle body from the Fiero. Was it just fuel delivery or spark too?
thanks guys

Here's a write-up on what I did : http://autoxer.skiblack.com/injection.html Within this link, there's a download with the full detail.

There are lots of systems out there, both home engineered and vendor (Ted Brown, Ray Sedman, Duane Cartwright, Chuck Riblett). Mine was a super-fun project!

[Dennis66]

While there are many EFI units using a cam sensor with variable valve timing, there are some that have cam sensors without variable cam / valve timing. Either way, one could run a cam sensor off a modified distributor, you'll need that for oil pump drive anyway. Dennis

[Auto Anatomy]

I agree that using a Microsquirt (or Megasquirt) would by far be easier and more flexible than trying to adapt the Hyundai system. I'm happy to discuss what I've learned so far on my car if you'd like.

Sean
autoanatomy@icloud.com

[joelsplace]

There are a lot more than "some" that use a cam sensor that don't have variable valve timing. I have 4 Buicks, 2 Chevy pickups and an International diesel all with cam sensors. None have variable valve timing and none will run without the sensor.
I would for sure run something like a MegaSquirt instead of fighting the factory computer.

[zarfnober]

If I were adapting from an existing car, Craigs use of Fiero parts would be much better than off a newer car, imo, there's just too many things controlled my current ecm's.

I drive an'12 Sonata turbo, love it, great car. Last year it suddenly, and without warning, started cutting out, almost as if the fuel pump was going, or anything that might cause the engine to just stop; no power steering/brakes. And with modern ecm's controlling so much, ya never know. So I go onto the interweb and find that a very common issue is the little rubber stop that cushions the brake light switch wears out, making the car think the brakes are on, or something like that. So, I take the thing out and see that it's falling apart, and by the looks of it, the replacement will be made from superior materials. I pick up the part, and all dealers have them, and I'm stunned to see that it's made exactly the same way, and designed to fail. I have to imagine more than one person got in an accident from this, but never checked data. It also doesn't throw a code to the check engine light, and my basic OBD II scanner didn't see it. Replacement part was dirt cheap, so I bought a spare.

Good luck on your efi project, fun stuff!

[Robbins]

It seems like you're considering a fascinating project of adapting fuel injection with coil packs to your 140 engine. While it's definitely an exciting endeavor,
there are challenges with integrating modern systems like the Hyundai ECU into a vintage engine setup. Have you considered using aftermarket ECM solutions like Megasquirt, which offer more flexibility and tunability?

[Frank DuVal]

Warning Will Robinson, AI is writing responses!

[66vairguy]

If I were adapting from an existing car, Craigs use of Fiero parts would be much better than off a newer car, imo, there's just too many things controlled my current ecm's.

I drive an'12 Sonata turbo, love it, great car. Last year it suddenly, and without warning, started cutting out, almost as if the fuel pump was going, or anything that might cause the engine to just stop; no power steering/brakes. And with modern ecm's controlling so much, ya never know. So I go onto the interweb and find that a very common issue is the little rubber stop that cushions the brake light switch wears out, making the car think the brakes are on, or something like that. So, I take the thing out and see that it's falling apart, and by the looks of it, the replacement will be made from superior materials. I pick up the part, and all dealers have them, and I'm stunned to see that it's made exactly the same way, and designed to fail. I have to imagine more than one person got in an accident from this, but never checked data. It also doesn't throw a code to the check engine light, and my basic OBD II scanner didn't see it. Replacement part was dirt cheap, so I bought a spare.

Good luck on your efi project, fun stuff!

Shutting off the engine should NOT happen. Runaway acceleration due to a stuck gas pedal became famous when a CHP officer and his family were driving a "loaner" Lexus. They could not stop the car, it crashed and killed them all. Very sad and later it was determined a loose carpet pad was the culprit. When that happened Nissan ran a commercial showing a car in the flat dessert going fast with the accelerator mashed to the floor, then the driver touches the brake pedal and the engine goes to an idle and the car stops WITH the accelerator mashed to the floor! This was a huge embarrassment to Lexus (and other car companies). Shortly thereafter the government agencies mandated the brake pedal would override the accelerator. Of course then folks the use one foot to break and the other to push the accerlator had trouble - "You can't make if fool proof, the fools are too clever" -

This brake over accelerator system should not SHUT OFF the engine which causes a loss of power steering and brakes. Time to write the NHTSA. GM lost a huge lawsuit due to ignitions turning when folks attaches "heavy things" to their key chains (on on one model built off-shore) that caused a loss of power steering/brakes and that resulted in crashes.

BTW --- Today in the new Tesla's Cypertruck was recalled for "sticking accelerator pedals".