We TRIED to Help CORSA Fix the Serious Issues with The Corvair Center Forum – Read Our Letter and Their Response HERE

[ihscomputers]

We sent our letter to every CORSA Board member on 21 December 2023 and received their official response on 3 January 2024 as shown.

Please first read our letter titled "Serious Concerns and Recommendations for Improvement for the CCF - FINAL", then read CORSA's response titled "Response to CCF Letter 12.21.2023"

Decide for yourselves...

For those who may have trouble downloading and reading the aforementioned letters, they are shown below:

OUR LETTER:

Corvair Society of America (CORSA)
ATTN: Board of Directors
Sent via email

21 December 2023

RE: Letter of Serious Concerns and Recommendations for Improving the Corvair Center Forum

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Board,

We, the senior, experienced users of and contributors to the Corvair Center Forum (CCF), are seriously concerned about the viability, functionality, and overall atmosphere of our beloved forum.

Our goal is simple: restore the CCF to the fun, open, easy-to-use, self-regulated Corvair family forum we used to know and love.

We encourage you to read the following with an open mind and allow us to help you.

The authors of this letter include former CORSA Directors, experienced forum moderators and those who have served the Corvair community for decades:

Ken Hand – 3 Term CORSA Director including terms as Treasurer and President. Experienced CCF Moderator, moderator of multiple outside forums including owning a forum.
Dean Gemberling – 1 Term CORSA Director
Mel Carlson – Experienced CCF Moderator
Dave Wenzlick – Experienced moderator for two outside forums
Dave Watson – Experienced moderator for multiple Corvair Facebook forums
Joel McGregor – Experienced moderator for an outside forum
Frank DuVal – CORSA member since 1977 and experienced Corvair mechanic


For many, many years, the CCF was fun, open, and easy-to-use with an authentic “Corvair family” atmosphere until the software upgrade and CORSA purchase occurred.

We knew that the forum software was ancient and needed updating. So, when we were offered the opportunity to crowd-fund the upgrade and the ongoing maintenance costs, we stepped up and generously contributed based largely on the “promises” that all the data would be migrated, and the existing forum layout & topic flow would remain unchanged.

Everyone knows that the upgrade process was not smooth with the initial results being disappointing and frustrating, especially since the final forum was markedly different from what was tested and approved by the volunteer beta testers.

Knowing that Alec Carlson selflessly volunteered his time and technical talent to make the upgrade happen, we intentionally took the time to publicly thank Alec time and again. We recognize and understand that Alec was the Most Valuable Player before, during and after the upgrade.

We recognize and appreciate Greg Vargas’ hard work and dedication as Western Division Director. CORSA, in general, and the western clubs, specifically, have greatly benefited from his ideas, energy and tireless efforts.

Now that the dust has settled after using the “new” forum for many weeks, we are justifiably upset with the “new” CCF, and specifically, how CORSA via the Board of Directors (BOD) has handled things with the forum.

Accordingly, our serious concerns are as follows:

1. CORSA and the BOD have created an atmosphere that can best be described as an “artificial peace”, such that all the fun, camaraderie, and sense of family has been sucked out. Allowing one person to have total control of the forum administration, especially related to post deletions, and banning users is unacceptable.

2. The “new” CCF COMMUNITY GUIDELINES which seem to have been slipped past CORSA and the BOD, have cast a pall of fear over us CCF users. Will we have our posts deleted or be banned from the forum because Greg Vargas feels like his authority has been challenged or his feelings have been hurt?

3. Andria Raine aka Caraholic4life was unjustly banned from the forum. Greg Vargas used the hastily posted CCF Community Guidelines to justify the banishment despite violating his own guidelines: “Don't complain about the moderation or administration on the forum; you may send a PM to CORSA, GoyoVargas, if you are unhappy with the forum.” When Andria followed the guidelines and contacted Greg via PM, he retaliated by banning her anyway.

4. CORSA and the BOD have failed to effectively communicate with us. Instead, you have mostly resorted to posting multiple “locked” topics which provide no opportunity for questions and answers, healthy debate, and feedback.

5. You have allowed the CORSA “branding” to trash the viewability/usability of the site. The black type on a grey background is very difficult to see, especially on smaller screens.

6. Disabling guest access is hurting the CCF because new potential users are unable to “kick the tires” to see if joining the forum is worthwhile. This also dramatically reduces the opportunity for these same new users to join CORSA.

Despite these serious concerns, we believe that CORSA and the BOD have a window of opportunity to properly address them and make things right as follows:

1. Replace Greg Vargas with a small team of senior, experienced and dedicated CCF users to handle the daily administration and moderation of the CCF under the overall supervision of CORSA and the BOD. Several of us are willing and able to immediately serve on this CCF Admin Team.

2. Replace the new CCF COMMUNITY GUIDELINES with the previously used rules that were short and concise. As a minimum the following must be removed: “Do not complain if a moderator or administrator removes a message you posted. We trust our moderators and administrators, and if they’ve removed a message, they had a good reason. Please respect the forum. Don't complain about the moderation or administration on the forum; you may send a PM to CORSA, GoyoVargas, if you are unhappy with the forum.”. Prior to these “new” guidelines, the CCF had a proven history of allowing robust debate that has always been self-regulated when things veer off track. Healthy forums do best when they are lightly regulated by users who have a vested interest in preserving the site.

3. Immediately reinstate Andria Raine aka Caraholic4life.

4. Post a 60-90 day formal announcement to the CCF apologizing for letting us down, then promise to do better. Start by posting a sticky requesting rational, fact-based requests for what CCF users would like to see changed or improved. Then, most importantly, post a detailed follow-up addressing each request. This will demonstrate to the CCF user, your customer, that you are truly listening and remain committed to serving the CCF community.

5. Immediately change the background color from grey to white to increase the contrast and viewability. Sincerely consider and implement other changes that make the site easier to use. Seek out and work with those who have proven experience with the forum software.

6. Re-enable guest access. If this requires upgrading the hosting plan or changing hosting companies, then do it.

We, the undersigned, have clearly identified and explained the serious concerns regarding the CCF and supplied you, CORSA and the BOD, with the best recommendations to successfully resolve the issues and preserve our beloved CCF for future Corvair owners.

Respectfully submitted,

Mel Carlson aka American Mel – CCF member since 2014
Ken Hand aka vairmech – CCF member since 2011
Dave Watson aka davemotohead – CCF member since 2009
Frank DuVal aka Frank DuVal – CCF member since 2011
Joel McGregor aka joelsplace – CCF member since 2007
Dave Wenzlick aka azdave – CCF member since 2009
Andria Raine aka Caraholic4life – CCF member since 2011
Dean Gemberling aka ihscomputers – CCF member since 2007


CORSA's RESPONSE:

Paul Sergeant - President
Corvair Society of America

Wednesday, January 3, 2024

Re: Letter of Serious Concerns and Recommendations for Improving the Corvair Center Forum.

Signatory members of the Corvair Center Forum

Thank you for your letter and concern for the Corvair Center Forum (the “CCF”). Your letter was discussed at length during the CORSA Board of Directors meeting on 1.2.2024. First off, the board wants you to know that we have very similar desires for the goal and future of the CCF. It is extremely important to provide a fun, friendly and open place to share Corvair information. The board focused their discussions on the 6-areas which were labeled in the last section of your letter “make things right as follows…” in your letter. The board responds as follows;

1. It was unanimous that the board stands behind Greg Vargus as the board’s primary contact with the CCF. He does not act alone. He has the support of Alec Carlson as well as the CCF moderators and CORSA board. In fact, myself and Jeannette Alberte (Treasurer – Central Division director) are in daily contact with Greg. We consult with him on decisions and direction. So, there is no one single individual who is administering the forum. The board supports Greg’s efforts to seek out additional moderators and implement guidelines for consistency. This will also help to reduce some of his workload.

2. The board reaffirmed its support of the recently published Community Guidelines as they are very basic rules as gleaned from other forums. You may even notice the ‘community guidelines’ as posted on Virtual Vairs which seems similar in spirit. Posts are often edited by moderators for various reasons. No user should be fearful of any action unless they deviate from the objective of discussing Corvairs in a friendly way.

3. On the topic of reinstating Andria Raine, the board voted 4 Yea, 6 Nay, 1 Abstain (President Paul Sergeant). Motion denied. Andria Raine will not be reinstated. We were hopeful for an opportunity to work thru a resolution but understand there is apparently no room for compromise. The board did however leave the door open to address banned CCF members reinstatements on a case by case basis.

4. The board reaffirmed its commitment to the CCF as an important part of CORSA. Communicating effectively with forum users was discussed. The board agreed that we need to do more in this area. We have been using CCF user feedback to evaluate the next steps and path forward for the Forum. The board instructed us to hold off making a formal announcement relating to this letter on the forum. The CCF is currently operating as designed.

5. The board was briefed on the background color situation and currently Alec and Greg are looking into making some slight changes to this in the near future.

6. Activating guest access appears to be a matter of purchased bandwidth from our hosting service. We are looking at their options for upgrading this service and will make a move in the near future. The board is strongly in favor of reinstating guest access without a login.
A couple of final points;

If a CCF user has a question about anything contained in a “locked topic” they are free to send a PM to the author of the locked topic to get an answer. Locked topics are created as announcements not discussions. Topics will continue to be locked if they widely deviate from the purpose of the post or violate Community Guidelines.

As long as users of the CCF do not make disparaging remarks toward any individual (CCF user or not) or the CORSA/CPF organization everything will be great.

Thank you again for your concerns regarding the CCF. Please remember, we are all volunteers. Many volunteers have full-time jobs. We also realize that things move quickly in the social media world and do our best to provide a timely response. Lastly, we are all part of a wonderful hobby and are simply trying to enjoy our hobby. It can difficult to keep this in perspective sometimes.

Enjoy the Corvair!

Sincerely,
Paul Sergeant – CORSA President.
CC: CORSA Board of Directors

[American Mel]

And now, they have fired Ken Hand as an Admin, and myself as a Moderator.
That is what we got for trying to help direct them back towards Greatness.
Way to go CORSA!

[erco]

Sad, Paul speaks like a politician. CCFs death spiral continues.

[davemotohead]

The simple fact they deleted Andria's account for her simply following their new rules and they did it instantly. But then after numerous letters. PM's and requests from numerous members to reinstate her account, they had to have a board meeting and put her reinstatement on the table and vote on it? THEN they vote to enforce her ban permanently! All for her following the rules they established and doing as she was asked by taking the conversation to a PM! That is wrong on every level!

And now they claim they (the Bod) are the victims of our abuse? WOWSERS!

[joelsplace]

If Andria offended them they must be trying out for the snowflake of the year award or maybe there is a new Snowflake Dictator award?

[caraholic4life]

Anyone here that is interested in reading the Topic I posted on the CCF asking for opinions that was immediately deleted, and the subsequent Private Message communications that led to the deletion of my ability to participate after my years of contributions send me a PM and I will send the unedited information to you.

[gbullman]

I certainly welcome you all here, I’ve been following you on CCF the last 3 + years. Too bad things have gone somewhat off the rails. I recognized the need to update the very old forum software and having done similar efforts know it is a big undertaking.

To those of you that were moderators I always felt the forum was well managed before any changes occurred.

[Gasman63]

Wow!
I didnt know it had gotten so far out if line.

[Lane66Monza]

Dean:

Thanks for the heroic effort in trying to get corsa to understand the issues and have them turn around the forum before it was too late. When I heard their statement that they bought the forum and was branding it as a corsa product, I knew their was no way corsa would be inclined to listen to the forum members about needed changes, even on just the display colors. Now, they are banning people and calling the ccf members troublemakers and instigators, when the members attempt to present corsa's own facts back to them.

The ccfis doomed, if they stay the course. In 2 years, the site license probably won't be renewed, if membership drops significantly and postings drop to almost nothing on a daily basis.

Again I appreciate your effort with the letter. Let us know if they send any updates. But I believe former ccf members will not be jumping to go back to the ccf, when they get a good feel for this forum.

Al Lane

[ihscomputers]

Al,

Thanks for the support and encouragement.

This fight is far from over.

Stay tuned...

Dean

[toms73novass]

This fight is far from over.

[flamingchariots]

Anyone here that is interested in reading the Topic I posted on the CCF asking for opinions that was immediately deleted, and the subsequent Private Message communications that led to the deletion of my ability to participate after my years of contributions send me a PM and I will send the unedited information to you.

I can't seem to send (or receive) private messages here anymore. Granted, I haven't been posting for a while, but I was one of the early members here (#234).

I would like to receive all the info you mentioned, Andria .
Maybe someone will grant me permission...

Kevin
Medina, OH

[caraholic4life]

I would like to receive all the info you mentioned,

Kevin
Medina, OH

Attempting to send requested information through e-mail

[flamingchariots]

Attempting to send requested information through e-mail

Got it. Thanks.

Read it. Was appalled by CORSA BOD's attitude and replies.

Question: Any way to find out who specifically voted against your reinstatement?
For the time being, I am still a member of CORSA. I will be voting, but would like to do so knowledgeably.
How long I remain in CORSA is a different issue.......

Kevin
Medina, OH

[wv-geo]

And now, they have fired Ken Hand as an Admin, and myself as a Moderator.
That is what we got for trying to help direct them back towards Greatness.
Way to go CORSA!

I just posted that fact in the same thread on CCF.

Let's see how long that post stays before it's deleted, or I'm banned from the site.

[Ohio64Sedan]

________

PequotMonza64

That was my handle on the CORSA forum (which I still have bookmarked as the Tan Forum).

I was one of the beta testers when CORSA took over and the forum was revised. I rather calmly suggested at the time that they were going the wrong way and that there would be serious issues, most of which would have been avoided if they were not insisting on reinventing the wheel at the machine language level, but I soon realized that I was there solely to identify bugs and was not welcome make comments or have input on the overall design and function of the forum. Since it was presented to the membership that after the changes the new forum would be identical in all respects to the old forum aside from being on a new server with modern software, my input should not have been needed.

From the time of the official changeover, I had login issues just as I did at the beta site. I presently still cannot login to that forum. I am in the database and have tried to reset my password, but I get no response to either of the email addresses I have even used. I never get an email that allows me to update my account. I have used the forum contact page to request help or information, and I have received no response from any moderator or administrator.

So, here I am at the Corvair Forum! I have no particular beef with anyone at the CORSA forum, and was not even able to login when the divisive discussions took place. I really liked the community over there and the way the forum members self-policed themselves in a mature and friendly manner. I will miss that community, but now I will be concentrating on participating here at the Corvair Forum and try to find a few of my old acquaintances while making new friends.

Glad to be here!

Glen in Ohio
Formerly PequotMonza64