WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

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bbodie52
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WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by bbodie52 »

PART II
Attachments
1965 Georgia Corvair Monza Coupe Restoration (101).jpg
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Brad Bodie
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Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by terribleted »

A partly restored coupe. 11k. Might be reasonable.
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61SuperMonza
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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by 61SuperMonza »

This might be a decent driver quality car, but 11 grand is a bit steep for the work done. I wouldn't document all the work if you aren't going to go all the way. The car wasn't stripped to bare metal, tigerhair looks to have been used to fix rust issues, single stage paint was applied over the yellow paint that was resprayed in the past. I'm not trying to bash the car but for a Monza 110/PG I wouldn't pay that money. Good luck to the seller.
First corvair in 1985
Have owned 4 corvairs since
65 Corsa coupe 180 turbo
66 Monza coupe 110 PG
66 Monza coupe 140 PG
61 Monza club coupe w/ 150 turbo
Anchorage,AK

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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by terribleted »

61SuperMonza wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:09 pm
This might be a decent driver quality car, but 11 grand is a bit steep for the work done. I wouldn't document all the work if you aren't going to go all the way. The car wasn't stripped to bare metal, tigerhair looks to have been used to fix rust issues, single stage paint was applied over the yellow paint that was resprayed in the past. I'm not trying to bash the car but for a Monza 110/PG I wouldn't pay that money. Good luck to the seller.
Fully agree. It is a partial restore/repair poor repaint it looks like, but, it still MIGHT be worth 8-11k to the right buyer...all depends on how good and extensive the mechanical work that was done is and condition of the rest of the body that was not shown in the photos. I would say it needs to be stripped repaired with steel in some holes and repainted from what I can see in the photos
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

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66vairguy
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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by 66vairguy »

I have to agree. A shame to to all that work and only go halfway. I like to refer to these type of cars as "shiny" fix-ups that will look good as long as you don't look too close. Too many short cuts to stand up over time. A nice driver, buy certainly not "WHAT IT TAKES" for a good restoration.

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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by bbodie52 »

:goodpost:

I appreciate your comments and feedback. I was impressed with the number of photos posted that detailed his work, but I don't have any body-working skills or experience that would allow me to accurately evaluate his work or the quality of his repairs. I though it might be a worthwhile post to obtain comments from people who are experienced in this type of work, and possibly to show potential Corvair buyers just how much time, expense and work is involved in any type of serious DIY "fixer-upper" Corvair restoration project. The seller apparently invested some serious time and effort in the work he did accomplish, but as to the quality of that work or the ultimate finished project, I was hoping the number of photos would permit an experienced evaluation and comments about the final outcome. Such commentary may really help possible buyers to have a more realistic understanding when they consider buying a DIY project car instead of spending more up-front for a clean, well-maintained and drivable example. Getting feedback and commentary from knowledgeable Corvair Forum members or CORSA club members prior to making any purchase commitment can also save a lot of headaches. :doh:
Brad Bodie
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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by Chiro972b »

As someone who was recently shopping for a late model, I have to say that appears to be a much better than most I see in that price range. I was adamant about having a 4 speed, but otherwise, I would have paid that for that car. True, full restorations seem to sell for much more than that from what I've seen recently. I would worry about the repair around the windshield and rear window, but I have looked at late models that were advertised for much more and you could tell there was significant putty all around the windshield. Much more than that looked like.

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Post by terribleted »

I have seen them so well fixed with smoke and mirrors that it is nearly impossible to tell until the rust starts coming back or finding big surprises when you decide to strip and repaint. I did a restoration on a 66 Corsa Convertible for a man in the late 1990's. That car had been "restored" before. It was showing some typical rust in the bottom of the doors and fenders and base of the front glass. as it turned out large areas of the body underneath had been fixed with window screen, fillers, and even expanding foam. the door hinge posts, the front subframe rails under the front floors and many other spots looked great but they were built out of expanding foam. His body was not salvageable at all once I found the very extensive cancer everywhere. We purchased another body to use to build the car.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by 61SuperMonza »

Well guys, if you can get 11 grand for that car we all should be pleased in that are cars are gaining in value.
That being said, if we want that trend to continue the cars that are advertised as "restored" should be just that. Not the 1500 dollar facelift.
Many of the myths about the lack of quality in a Corvair are due to new owners purchasing "restored" cars like this. If you want the car to reflect what it was and is you need to do things right. The result will only stand to elevate our cars in the collector market.
Norm
First corvair in 1985
Have owned 4 corvairs since
65 Corsa coupe 180 turbo
66 Monza coupe 110 PG
66 Monza coupe 140 PG
61 Monza club coupe w/ 150 turbo
Anchorage,AK

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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by doug6423 »

terribleted wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:01 am
I have seen them so well fixed with smoke and mirrors that it is nearly impossible to tell until the rust starts coming back or finding big surprises when you decide to strip and repaint. I did a restoration on a 66 Corsa Convertible for a man in the late 1990's. That car had been "restored" before. It was showing some typical rust in the bottom of the doors and fenders and base of the front glass. as it turned out large areas of the body underneath had been fixed with window screen, fillers, and even expanding foam. the door hinge posts, the front subframe rails under the front floors and many other spots looked great but they were built out of expanding foam. His body was not salvageable at all once I found the very extensive cancer everywhere. We purchased another body to use to build the car.
Just curious Ted if your customer went after the owner that sold him that car? Most people aren't aware they can be held just as liable as a shop can be for repairs like that.
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Post by terribleted »

No he did not. He had owned it for a few years. He was an attorney so I would imagine legal costs would not have been a concern. The problem is that the previous owner may not have known either. When piss poor cover up work is done it may or may not be legally attackable...I really depends on how the car was represented. If it was represented as rust free then maybe. Many people do not really understand much about rust. I have shown a number of people terminal rust on their cars and they dump money in them anyway...I just do not understand it sometimes. Why do nice to have expensive, non function related things to a rusty hulk....beats me.
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Post by bbodie52 »

Even with all of this valuable discussion by experienced Corvair body technicians, it is hard to see what the average buyer can do to spot a "Bondo bucket" that has accumulated many sins below the surface. Poor mechanical repairs and practices that have accumulated over the decades may be easier for the average home mechanic to correct, but hidden body cover-ups and false repairs or facades may not be obvious even for experienced body technicians to spot. It seems that much can be hidden below the surface paint, with poor practices only surfacing well after the car has changed hands many times.

Buying an aging Corvair can be a hazardous process as we search for clues that might indicate a "good find" or try to spot a very poor candidate before putting our cash on the line. We inherit all of the "sins" committed by previous owners. Spotting the hidden flaws with one or more test drives, with photos posted in advance on websites like this one while in search for advice, or by dragging some volunteers from a local CORSA club chapter along to gather a consensus of opinions may not always reduce the risks of spot the bad candidates that are being considered for purchase. There are no guarantees in this Corvair hobby. The market prices remain somewhat low, which may lower the risk somewhat, but how do you spot the good deals while weeding out the junk?

The car in this post that is the subject numerous photographs that were taken as it was "restored" reveals far more than what most buyers are likely to to have revealed to them as they search for the "right" Corvair. It appears that the owner did what he believes to be a quality restoration of a Corvair that might have easily ended up in a junk yard or stripped as a parts car. With all of the work he put into this car, I was surprised that he apparently never intended to keep the car for his own use. He put in a lot of work and effort and tried to hide nothing in his efforts. I was somewhat surprised to discover that his effort was apparently flawed in its execution as it was criticized my others who are much-more knowledgeable than I am about "what it takes" to perform a quality rebuild and restoration. It leaves me wondering what chance the average buyer has in spotting the really good cars while avoiding the poor candidates. :dontknow:
Brad Bodie
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Post by terribleted »

Restoration is not well defined. One person's idea of restoration varies a lot from another person's idea of what that means. I have been doing rust repair and restoration for a very long time. I was surprised when I found out that the car I mentioned above had nearly the entire driver's side underfloor diagonal subframe formed out of expanding foam. They went as far as boring out holes in the foam to look like the couple of holes in the original piece. They then coated it with a little Bondo in spots and undercoated it all. It looked good.... The floor panels were very nicely factory shaped and undercoated from the bottom, but the floors were built out of a couple layers of roofing tar paper over a thin coat of fiberglass compound over the well perforated floor panel. Here again I knew there was some sound deadening or something stuck on the floor, but had no idea how bad the floors were until I tore this mess up. When I pulled up the roofing tar is when I saw the top of the expanding foam above the subframe brace:) After that I just started really heavily poking around and found similar well-hidden stuff all over.

Someone who is not very experienced in what to look for should find/hire someone who is experienced to go look at the vehicle with them. Someone with vehicle-specific knowledge is of course best. This will not guarantee there are not hidden issues but it should at least give the inexperienced a fighting chance. To me inspecting the vehicle hands-on is a must. I personally could never buy a car sight unseen as I have seen too much:) You need to inspect the car on a lift if at all possible as well.

I have had at least 3 customers within the last couple years that did not get what they thought they were getting buying remotely. Looking great in photos does NOT mean looking great in person. One friend bought a Corsa Convertible for near 15k on auction out of Texas. Was supposed to be a fully restored (there's that word again) rust-free Texas car. This one really looked nice in the photos over under and inside. On arrival the paint looked like a poor Maaco respray, and while the car was fairly rust-free it did have hole starting in both fenders and had some significant floor rust in both front floors that had been fiber-glassed and dressed on the outside with undercoat. It also had about 85% of the chassis, suspension, brakes etc. still being worn out original parts. Fully restored to this person meant, I went in and fixed what was not working and put a poor paint job and some stitched to look like stock seat conversion it.

Another customer bought a convertible from out of state. The photos looked excellent. The car looked fairly good in person at first glance, but look close and get underneath and really look and note the doors sagging, slight bubbling in lower doors fenders and rockers, and other places. This car needs both rockers and a lot of other structural repair. It has bad cancer in places that are really not repairable. So a drive it until it falls apart car for like 7k.

Another Vair recently purchased sight unseen was supposed to be running and driving but it has no brakes and runs for like 10 seconds until the L carb floods it out and spits flames! At least this van was cheap ($1000). The body looked pretty good in the photos (Bondo with some sheet metal riveted over larger holes and painted long ago is what it turned out to be) but the frame and structure turned out to be badly rusted. Not a terrible deal for a parts Greenbrier, but not a really good deal either. The one saving grace is that it has a 65 van engine in it and maybe it will run.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by joelsplace »

A magnet would reveal the bad repairs in the above pictures.
113 Corvairs, 5 Ultravans and counting
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61SuperMonza
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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by 61SuperMonza »

Like Ted mentioned, restorations can be very subjective. My second corvair (66 monza 110/PG) turned out to have alot hiding under the surface. I thought it was an original car that had been resprayed at some point. It did have some rust in the usual places but the unibody look good so I figured I could deal with it.
With the help of dad I got it running/driving great. Had a ball as 16yr old that summer.
I really wanted it to look as good as drove so that winter I stripped the car. Interior pulled and all trim on the exterior so I could strip the paint. The more trim that was removed revealed more bondo repair. I couldn't have that so I started stripping the paint with a chemical stripper. The areas that I could tell had filler turned out to be not bad, so I'm relieved. Then I get to the left quarter panel. The panel had 3in of tigerhair and filler above the wheel well because the quarter was gone up to the bodyline. They had tack welded strips to the fender and filled and shaped the whole wheel opening. My fender was more plastic than metal.
Long story short I got it all sorted and enjoyed it as a DD for years.
I was lucky because at 16 I was just developing the skills to fix these issues the right way and had people around me that could help the skills I needed to finish the project.
First corvair in 1985
Have owned 4 corvairs since
65 Corsa coupe 180 turbo
66 Monza coupe 110 PG
66 Monza coupe 140 PG
61 Monza club coupe w/ 150 turbo
Anchorage,AK

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Re: WHAT IT TAKES! A Well-Photographed 1965 Corvair Monza Restoration Project CONTINUED

Post by bbodie52 »

:goodpost: :woo: :doh:
fa·cade
/fəˈsäd/

noun
  • an outward appearance that is maintained to conceal a less pleasant or creditable reality.
    "her flawless public façade masked private despair"
  • a false appearance that makes someone or something seem more pleasant or better than they really are: He kept his hostility hidden behind a friendly façade
The art of the classic car automotive façade is a scary scenario. The development of what seems to be advanced cover-up techniques as described in the previous entries is almost unbelievable! And apparently this is being done on vehicles that are not particularly expensive or selling at a high price! I wonder what is being done at high-class or reputable outlets like the Barrett-Jackson Car Auctions to prevent this kind of fraud entering into the world of classic car auctions?

Corvair prices seem to be ramping up. Clean and well-preserved Forward-Control (FC) vans and trucks have recently moved into a very expensive category — often $30,000 +. I recently tried to bid on the 140hp 1966 Air Conditioned 4-door Sedan in the pictures below at a North Carolina auto auction. The price rapidly moved from below-$10,000 to a final selling price of over $20,000 in a matter of just minutes!

1966 White Corvair Sedan at NC Auction.jpg

Open discussions like this with informed-commentary from experienced Corvair restorers is, I believe, helpful to potential Corvair buyers on several levels. To the DIY fixer-upper who is in the market for a "project car" — perhaps as a first-time owner — it may provide a dose of reality. To the Corvair shopper who is searching for a first-time acquisition or perhaps to add to their classic car collection it may provide some cautionary tales and set off a few "alarm bells" as they strive to make a "smart choice".

:ty: Thanks for sharing your ideas and experiences!
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

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