Identifying electrical wires in LM

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mg9184
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Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by mg9184 »

Hello, I just bought my first Corvair, 1969 2 door automatic 140hp, and am working on getting her roadworthy, my brake lights don't turn on at all and neither do my indicators, regular headlights are good but no high beam. I was looking under the dash for the wiring and saw a couple of plastic connectors not plugged in, and one that was, does anyone know what they are for, and if they could be the cause of my light issues. I will also say that I am fairly handy with modern cars, but I am somewhat out of my element here.

In the picture with the fuse box, theres one white connector out of focus in the middle of the picture, and another one connected to the orange wires to the right of the white one

Then there is one connector connected to the floor

and one connector just hanging near the fan and heat controls

I tried my best to trace them back to wherever they go, but no luck

thank you in advance

edit: pictures came out sideways, not sure why
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bbodie52
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by bbodie52 »

mg9184 wrote: » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:02 pm

Hello, I just bought my first Corvair, 1969 2 door automatic 140hp, and am working on getting her roadworthy, my brake lights don't turn on at all and neither do my indicators, regular headlights are good but no high beam. I was looking under the dash for the wiring and saw a couple of plastic connectors not plugged in, and one that was, does anyone know what they are for, and if they could be the cause of my light issues. I will also say that I am fairly handy with modern cars, but I am somewhat out of my element here.
The lack of high beams are fairly common, and the cause is usually a faulty floor-mounted dimmer switch.

Power feed to the dimmer switch is the wire labeled 14 LBL (14 Gauge Light Blue) routed from the main instrument panel light switch to the Dimmer Switch. The Low Beam output from the Dimmer Switch is the 18T (18 Gauge Tan) wire that passes through the firewall into the trunk, where it is spliced and divides to route to the left and right Low Beam headlights. The High Beam dimmer switch output is labeled 16LG (16 Gauge Light Green). At the input to the mullti-connector, you will notice one thinner wire that branches off (splice) labeled 20LG (20 Gauge Light Green). If you follow that wire on the schematic you will see that it ends up at the 12-pin multi-connector for the instrument panel, and then terminates at the other side at the HIGH BEAM INDICATOR bulb. So when power is applied to the High Beam headlights in the trunk, it is also applying voltage to the HIGH BEAM INDICATOR bulb in the instrument panel. Assuming that the High Beam Indicator bulb is good, if it does not light, it is also telling you that no voltage is making it out of the dimmer switch to feed the High Beams in the trunk.

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:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... w_page=84B

Part number C457: DIMMER SWITCH

Weight: 0 lbs 4 oz
Catalog Page(s): 84B
Price: $ 16.35

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NOTE: These switches can be dangerous. I had one in my 1966 Corsa that turned ALL my headlight off when I tapped it with my left foot. It not only failed to illuminate the high beams, but it also cut power to the low beams!! This left me driving in pitch black on a winding mountain road at about 60 mph!! :eek: Fortunately, the low beams came back on when I tapped the switch again to "turn off" the high beams. ::-):

ImageImage
As for the Brake Lights/Turn Signals,both use the same bright filament in the 1157 bulbs on the left and right rear. Assuming that the tail lights/running lights in the rear are functioning, this would tend to prove a proper ground of each bulb socket.

Is your Corvair equipped with Emergency Hazard Warning Lights? These use the same 1157 bulb bright filaments, but a different power circuit and flasher.
A SIDE NOTE: IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT SCHEMATIC WIRING DIAGRAM FOR THE REAR RUNNING LIGHTS IS WRONG (DRAWN INCORRECTLY). AT THE 12 PIN MULTI-CONNECTOR, THE POWER FEED FOR THE RUNNING LIGHTS IS LABELED 20 BRN (20 GAUGE BROWN). THERE IS A SPLICE AT THE MULTI-CONNECTOR, WITH THE BOTTOM 20 BRN WIRE POWERING THE LEFT REAR TAIL LIGHT ONLY. THE OTHER 20 BRN WIRE POWERS ONLY THE LICENSE PLATE LAMP. THE L.H. AND R.H. SIDE MARKER LIGHTS AND THE RIGHT TAIL LIGHT ARE ALL CONNECTED TOGETHER, BUT NOTHING IS POWERING ANY OF THEM!
I don't own a 1969 Corvair, so I cannot go out and look to see how these lights are ACTUALLY wired. I added a corrected diagram below to show the addition of a splice that is needed to power the two side marker lights and the right taillight.

Finally, your problem with the rear turn signals and rear brake lights: The turn signal switch normally controls powere routed to the bright filaments in the rear 1157 bulbs. With the turn signal control NOT ACTIVATED, power from the brake pedal switch normally passes through the turn signal switch and on to the rear 1157 bulb bright filaments. When the left or right turn signal is activated, the side with the active turn signal is temporarily disconnected from the brake light power switch, and is connected instead to the turn signal flasher in the fuse block to power the flashing rear light on the sie selected by the driver. The other rear 1157 bulb remains connected to the brake light switch, so that it can show the vehicle slowing if the driver steps on the brake pedal while a turn signal is flashing — indicating a turn in-progress while the car is also slowing with the brakes activated. At the same time, turn signal flasher voltage is applied to the activated turn signal bulb in the front, and to the turn signal indicator on the instrument panel. When the turn signal is cancelled by the driver, the rear taillight is reconnected to the brake light circuit power switch, while the flasher output is disconnected from both front and rear bulbs.

If your rear turn signals AND brake lights fail to function, the interruption may be occurring in the turn signal switch in the steering column. The conductivity between the brake or flasher power in connectors and the rear 1157 bulb outputs can be tested using a multimeter to measure continuity while the turn signal is unplugged at the circular connector.

Do the turn signals function at the vehicle front on either side when activated (ignition key must be ON)? Is there any flasher indication on the instrument panel? Do the Emergency Flashers work? (Note that the turn signal flasher may not flash on/off or may flash at a faster rate if it is not correctly loaded by ALL THREE bulbs on the selected side. The flasher must "SEE" the circuit path to Ground via all three bulbs.

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Directional Switches – '65-'69
:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... ow_page=87



:chevy:
1969 Corvair Wiring Schematics

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1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Diagram (CORRECTED)
1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Diagram (CORRECTED)
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1967 Camaro Turn Signal Wiring

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Brad Bodie
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joelsplace
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by joelsplace »

Brad covered most of the things to check.
One very common problem with tail lights on all Corvairs is grounding. I always check that 2nd after making sure the bulbs aren't burned out. 3rd guess would be the turn signal switch.
Brad is also correct in pointing out the hi/low "dimmer" switch is the most likely cause of your headlight problem. I've found that most of the will start working again if you just switch them a few times.
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by bbodie52 »

:goodpost:
It is true that a poor bulb socket ground through the light housing might be sufficient for one bulb circuit, but may fail if both bulb circuits in the 1157 bulb are active. The amount of current increases when both bulb filaments are engaged, and the ground return path to the negative battery terminal must provide adequate conductivity to handle the full current drawn by both filaments. Dirt and corrosion in a connector or in the ground return path can cause a circuit interruption if the ground return path cannot support the increased current flow. Faulty grounding can introduce many kinds of unpredictable faults that may confuse troubleshooting efforts.

A faulty bulb filament, like a blown fuse, can also introduce confusing fault symptoms. Even inserting the wrong type of bulb (an 1156 single filament bulb in place of an 1157, for example, or ignoring the keyed nature of the 1157 bulb (one locking pin is higher than the other) and inserting the bulb incorrectly while forcing the pins to distort in the socket can cause unpredictable results. So when inspecting a circuit to try to perform fault isolation, try to not assume anything and question everything. New wiring, substitute wiring, and unpredictable modifications can be inserted by previous owners over 50+ years of mischief and experimentation. When you buy a Corvair you inherit an aging car and years of modifications and "corrections" than can make life interesting. Those extra wires and connectors shown in the earlier photos around the fuse block and heater control are all non-standard wiring and signs of previous and unpredictable tampering that may require some detective work to "correct". It is sometimes helpful to study a circuit so that you understand what "normal" should look like and how a circuit is supposed to function, so that you can be more effective in troubleshooting a fault to restore a service.

The errors that occasionally creep into factory wiring diagrams and schematics can add to the confusion. The shop manual is supposed to be the "bible" to guide the mechanic, but as shown mistakes on the part of the technical writers who created the shop manuals can make life difficult when trying to fix a bad or faulty circuit. When in doubt, or when you are "stuck", write your questions and describe exactly what you see or what the symptoms are so that others on the Corvair Forum can take a look with a fresh pair of eyes. The joint effort can sometimes provide a solution or help to find a way past an obstacle.

If you do suspect a bad turn signal switch, note that the Clark's catalog (page 87) shows: "1967-69 CARS: Used C863 OR C864. . . . . *MUST go by picture. Major difference is in the plastic canceling arms and hazard flasher unit." In those years, GM adapted Camaro wiring and hardware for use in the Corvair. They (GM) also added a hazard "Emergency Flasher" to the system, which adds to the complexity and troubleshooting difficulties because it utilizes the same bulbs and wiring circuits used by the brake lights and turn signals, but overrides them all to create emergency flashers.
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erco
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by erco »

Also check your multiwire connector through the front firewall near the master cylinder. Unplug from inside the trunk, look for corrosion, maybe spray some contact cleaner if necessary and reconnect. I needed another pair of hands inside under the dash to push on the internal connector to reconnect. Horn, headlights, blinkers and wiper all go through this connector. Does your horn(s) work? Those are well-hidden inside the headlight pockets, but the horn relay is easy to get to on top of the LF wheel well.

I just replaced my dimmer switch and connector. Dimmer switches are standard and easy to find ($6-8 if you dig), and my local NAPA dealer had the connector with footlong pigtail wires for under $5. Horn relay is also a standard GM part, ~$10. The horn relay uses the same connector pattern as the dimmer switch, but the dimmer switch has lock tabs on it.

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-P ... B000C7ZU1A

mg9184
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by mg9184 »

Thank you guys so much for your help, I managed to get the high beams working and it was the floor mounted switch! As for the turn signals, when I try to use them I do get a signal indicator on the dash, but at irregular intervals, a friend of mine recommended changing out the flasher for the turn signals so I got one from an AutoZone for $7 and switched that out, now I just gotta wait for my battery recharger to recharge because I accidentally drained the battery by leaving a door open ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

none of the bulbs are fused, but I am going to go over all of the grounding points with some sand paper and make sure all of the contacts are good.

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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by erco »

Good on ya. I've also been working on turn signals recently and have been amazed at flasher prices, they now come individually packaged at auto stores at "elevated to downright ridiculous" prices, here's one for $22: https://www.autozone.com/electrical-and ... 193129_0_0 . Many moons ago, I recall seeing them at auto parts stores near the register, a dozen loose ones poked into a carboard display stand for 99 cents each. Guess I'm living in the past.

OK, Home Depot has one for $1.45: https://www.homedepot.com/p/CURT-14-Amp ... /205632740

I ordered this solid state unit with adjustable flash rate from Ebay China for $2: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pin-Electron ... 3048563747 Works great but silent. I miss the tick tock flasher sound.

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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by VairCare »

1969 Vairs have 2 flashers, the one in the fuse box is for the 4 way safety flashers, which is a variable load flasher to; work anytime there is battery power in an emergency. The turn signal flasher is a fixed load flasher located in a clip to the left of the speedometer. Turn signals only work with the key in the ACC, or RUN position. I would get all the bulbs working using the safety flashers first, then deal with the turn signals. It is important to use the proper fixed load flasher for the turn signals, since the flasher also is the fuse for that circuit. It also will warn you of a bad bulb, since it will not flash if the correct number of bulbs it is designed for are not working. This would make trouble shooting more difficult. The wire connector in your hand is for the stop light switch, which is activated by the brake pedal. Your picture also shows a spring, which should not be there. I suspect that it was added by a previous owner to turn off the stop lights, which might have been staying on due to other brake problems. 67-69 cars have different wiring than the 65-66 cars, due to the safety items that were required in those years.

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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by VairCare »

In the picture of your fuse box, it appears that your car has the optional light package, which included an ash tray light. That is what I think that plug in the fuse box is.

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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by erco »

:goodpost:

Excellent info @VairCare. Very helpful. I have been fixing the flashers & 4-ways in my '67. The 4-ways never worked since I bought the car in 1980. I replaced part of the Boyne switch and rigged a custom 4-way switch. Not much info or descriptions on the use of those, it took me a while to realize that the 4-ways don't work unless the key is on run or acc. Only the brake lights, headlights & horn have constant power.

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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by bbodie52 »

:think:

Does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ = :dontknow:

:doh: :rolling:

:BradBodie:
:confused:
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by bbodie52 »

This is a good substitute for emergency flashers for those with a dead battery, those who inherited Corvair emergency flashers that don't work, Corvair owners with poorly grounded taillights, or those who have an older Corvair that never had emergency flashers!
Stonepoint Emergency LED Road Flare Kit – Set of 3 Super Bright LED Roadside Beacons with Magnetic Base – Flashing or Steady Red Lights Visible Up to 2 Miles Away – Includes Storage Bag
3 FlareAlert 9.1.1 LED Emergency Beacon Flares with Storage Bag
:link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LQ ... UTF8&psc=1
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Price: $19.99
  • SET OF 3 - This StonePoint Flare Kit comes with three LED Emergency Beacons. Also included is a bag to store the LED lights.
  • SUPER BRIGHT LIGHT - The LED Emergency Beacons produce light with 360-degree visibility up to two miles away. Each light has a 20-hour run time in steady mode, while it has a 60-hour run time in flash mode. The light has a wattage of 0.5, and a 50,000-hour LED life.
  • SMALL AND LIGHTWEIGHT - The LED Safety Lights are small and lightweight, and make a great addition to any emergency kit, garage, workshop, RV, boat, and outdoor adventures.
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  • COMES IN TWO MODES - The Beacons come in two modes: flash and steady. Each beacon requires three AAA alkaline batteries (not included).
4.3 out of 5 stars — 578 ratings | 46 answered questions

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mg9184
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by mg9184 »

VairCare wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:56 pm
1969 Vairs have 2 flashers, the one in the fuse box is for the 4 way safety flashers, which is a variable load flasher to; work anytime there is battery power in an emergency. The turn signal flasher is a fixed load flasher located in a clip to the left of the speedometer. Turn signals only work with the key in the ACC, or RUN position. I would get all the bulbs working using the safety flashers first, then deal with the turn signals. It is important to use the proper fixed load flasher for the turn signals, since the flasher also is the fuse for that circuit. It also will warn you of a bad bulb, since it will not flash if the correct number of bulbs it is designed for are not working. This would make trouble shooting more difficult. The wire connector in your hand is for the stop light switch, which is activated by the brake pedal. Your picture also shows a spring, which should not be there. I suspect that it was added by a previous owner to turn off the stop lights, which might have been staying on due to other brake problems. 67-69 cars have different wiring than the 65-66 cars, due to the safety items that were required in those years.
Thank you for helping me identify the wire connector in my hand, would you happen to know where it plugs back in? From inside the car when looking at the brake pedal I see the switch that is pressed in when the pedal is pressed, but I do not see anywhere for the wires to plug back in, is it possible to plug those wires back in without having to remove the dash?

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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by erco »

No dash removal, the brake light switch is quick & easy to (dis)connect. The BL switch gets pressed in by the brake pedal lever when the brake is released (pedal furthest from floor= switch open, no contact). The switch is closed (two contacts connected) when you press on the pedal. You can see the rod move in and out on the end touching the lever. The connector goes on the other end of the brake light switch.
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by bbodie52 »

This picture shows the inside contacts of the 1965 turn signal switch, and the schematic diagram closeup identifies some of those wires that interface with the turn signal switch contacts. There are two power sources that feed the bright filaments in the 1157 bulbs: the BRAKE PEDAL LIGHT SWITCH continuous voltage [B+] that is produced when the driver steps on the brake pedal, and the turn signal FLASHER on/off cyclic output [TS+] that becomes active (clicking) ONLY WHEN A FRONT AND REAR 1157 BULB AND THE INSTRUMENT PANEL TURN INDICATOR BULB ARE LINKED TO IT.

FUNCTIONAL OPERATION:
When the turn signal switch is in the NEUTRAL position (OFF), the normal through path of the internal contacts ties the brake pedal switch [B+] to the rear 1157 bulbs on both sides [LR] left rear and [RR] right rear. So whenever the driver steps on the brake pedal, the continuous voltage passes right through the turn signal switch to the rear 1157 bulbs, and the brake lights are ON.

Moving the turn signal lever to one side or the other pushes the contacts on the left or right side so that they come into contact with [TS+]. This ties the front 1157 bulb on the selected side to the on/off flasher output voltage, and also simultaneously connects the rear 1157 bulb on the same side to the flasher output. Doing this temporarily disconnects that same rear 1157 bulb from the brake pedal switch, so that it now is a turn signal instead of a brake light bulb. (The front and rear 1157 bulbs on the opposite side functionally remain unchanged, with the front bulb OFF and the rear bulb tied to the brake pedal switch). IN THIS WAY, A TURN IS INDICATED (FRONT AND REAR) ON THE SELECTED SIDE, WHILE THE REAR 1157 BULB N THE OTHER SIDE CAN STILL INDICATE THE APPLICATION OF THE BRAKE PEDAL TO SLOW THE VEHICLE IN A TURN.

When the turn is completed, the turn signal switch automatically is cancelled, the lever returns to the neutral position, and both rear 1157 bulbs are back to being connected to the brake pedal switch for power. The turn signal flasher stops clicking, because nothing is connected to it to draw flashing ON/OFF power.
Image

1965 Front Turn Signal Circuits.jpg

The layout changed somewhat when Camaro parts were inserted in later Corvairs to functionally add the flasher and switching to include emergency flashers, but the front and rear 1157 bulbs and their operational concept in relation with the turn signal switch remained the same as with the earlier years.
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Re: Identifying electrical wires in LM

Post by erco »

A helpful look inside a mechanical flasher module. Jump to 6:38

[share_youtube]https://youtu.be/Eg6BLxdAQBU?t=398[/share_youtube]

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