Alternator issues

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Blair
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Alternator issues

Unread post by Blair » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:19 pm

I had to remove the alternator to get to the oil cooler. I fixed the seals for the oil cooler and then put the alternator back on. I tried to start it today, and it turns over just fine, But it won't start. After a lot of confusion, I had a friend turn the key only to notice the belt was just rubbing against the alternator pulley. I tightened the belt as much as I could and tried again with no success. I can rotate the alternator by hand but it's very difficult. I've been told I have the incorrect alternator for my corvair but it still works so why fix something that ain't broken? I was wondering if i re installed it incorrectly or if I broke it. Is there any way i could test it to be sure if it's functional? I'm not sure if I installed the wide and thin copper wire that connects from the battery terminal to the alternator correctly. Pictures would help and any input will be appreciated. I am not near my car right now, but I've attached a few pictures I have with my alternator in them.
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terribleted
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by terribleted » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:47 pm

That is a generator, not an alternator. It should turn easily by hand (with no belt on it) if it is hard to turn it is damaged or binding against something. The generator cooling fan appears to be the incorrect part. The Corvair part has opposite direction vanes on it. Troubleshooting, repair, and replacement instructions are in the 1961 GM Corvair service manual in the engine electrical section.

Your fuel line setup and filter could be a fire hazard. It is best not to plumb any rubber lines in the engine bay (all engine bay lines should be metal). It is also not a good idea to have fuel lines or fuel filter so close to the belt where they may be damaged should the belt break.

Where is your large main ground wire from the battery directly to the engine? Most times it mounts to the bolt that holds the rear generator bracket to the L cylinder head. I do not see it in your photo of the area. The car needs a direct connection from battery negative port to both body and engine. Should be wired directly with 4-6 gauge wire or a large braided strap like the factory used. If not done this way you invite odd electrical issues from poor current flow.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia

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bbodie52
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:08 am

:goodpost:

To illustrate what was already said about proper grounding. (The powertrain/engine ground is needed because of the physical and electrical isolation from the car chassis caused by the non-conductive rubber engine and transaxle mounts).

Image

:chevy:
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

Blair
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by Blair » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:42 pm

I have the factory negative terminal wire and it is in good shape. I have it connected to the body and to the generator bracket. Still won't work. From what I'm reading online I think I'll have to buy a new generator. The pulley is seized and is very difficult to turn by hand

Blair
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by Blair » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:52 pm

What type of alternator should I use? Is it something I could easily find in a junk yard? I'm trying to save money to build a garage soon

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terribleted
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by terribleted » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:22 pm

You can either get a functional generator or rebuild the one you have or purchase a rebuilt generator (unlikely junk yard find unless your junk yards have lots of cars before the mid 60's and even if they do a usable part might be hard to find). You can convert to a later alternator system using used and new parts. Conversion requires a 65 or later Corvair oil filter adapter which incorporates the proper mount for a Corvair alternator. You would have to have a functional Corvair alternator to use or have a Corvair alternator to use the mounting end frame from it to convert a common GM internally regulated alternator from the parts store (I ask for alternator for a 74 Nova with A/C ..usually yields a 63 amp unit that is the proper physical size to swap the Corvair mounting end frame onto to convert it for Corvair use). Installing a stock Corvair alternator or later internal regulated unit will require rewiring to match whatever you choose to install. If the replacement is to be the stock Corvair alternator you would also need the correct external voltage regulator to work with it. Rewiring diagrams and instructions for these conversions can be found in the CORSA Tech Guide.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:43 pm

It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want to simply replace the existing generator with another generator (rebuilt or used)? This approach would be a straightforward replacement and, assuming that your voltage regulator and wiring harness are in good condition, the work involved is not complicated.

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=83
Image

Part number C9247N: PREMIUM REBUILT GENERATOR-64 STYLE PULLY 10" SHOULD ORDER NEW VOLTAGE REG-C2263 OR

NOTICE: Price includes core value: $150.0. You will be issued a refund of $150.0 when you return the used part.

Weight: 30 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 83
Price: $ 350.40


Part number C2263: 60-64 VOLTAGE REGULATOR-ALL

Weight: 1 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 84B(2)
Price: $ 49.10


NOTE: You may want to discuss the condition and model number of your current defective generator with a Clark's Corvair Parts representative, to make sure that your existing generator will be accepted as a trade-in.

Alternately, you may decide to choose this time to convert to a modern alternator system instead of remaining with the old generator system. This is a more complex process because you'd not only have to decide whether or not you want to purchase used equipment (alternator and external voltage regulator), but you also need to change the oil filter/alternator adapter to provide the proper amount for the alternator. You also will have to make some modifications to the wiring harness to provide for the correct wiring connections for an alternator.

A third approach is to convert to an alternator, but to use a more modern design that includes an integrated solid-state voltage regulator, instead of the original alternator with separate voltage regulator that is found in 1965-1969 Corvairs.

I would suggest contacting a technical advisor and representative at the Corvair Ranch in Gettysburg Pennsylvania to discuss your options. If you wish to go with used components they may be able to provide you with pricing and availability information on a used original equipment design alternator and separate voltage regulator, as well as a replacement oil filter adapter to provide the correct mount. Such a discussion may also help you to do some cost comparisons as you discuss the various options to decide which approach is the most cost-effective.

Assuming that all of the used parts are serviceable this would be a fairly easy, straightforward bolt on substitution. They would have to provide the alternator, voltage regulator, support bracket, and oil filter adapter and gasket. You would also have to make a few wiring modifications as shown in the schematic diagram below.

:link: http://www.corvairranch.com/
Image

1079 Bon-Ox Road, ​Gettysburg, ​PA. 17325 USA
​Phone: 717-624-2805
fax us by the same number... ask us to hook up the machine
​Email: findit@theranch.today
Our hours are Monday thru Friday 9 to 5, Saturday 9 to 12
or contact us for an appointment.


In the schematic diagram below I have combined the engine compartment, interior and trunk wiring diagrams for the 1964 Corvair passenger car into a single diagram. I have also modified the wiring diagram to remove the generator and generator voltage regulator and replace them with the 1965-69 alternator and external alternator voltage regulator.

I used existing generator wiring to connect the alternator voltage regulator to the alternator and labeled the terminals. I added the wire labeled 10 R to the alternator connection and added a junction point to connect it to the existing wire labeled 10 R (routed from the battery positive terminal to the ten pin multi-connector). A voltage regulator voltage sensing wire labeled 20 R was also added from voltage regulator connector 3 to the existing positive battery wire 10 R (requires a splice connection). The existing wire labeled 20 BRN was retained and is connected to the voltage regulator connector 4. (This is the GEN/FAN warning light).

Left-click the image to enlarge it for better viewing or "Pan & Scan"...
1964 Corvair Passenger Car Combined Schematic (Alternator Mod).jpg
1964 Corvair Passenger Car Combined Schematic (Alternator Mod)
Image

CORVAIR COMBINED WIRING SCHEMATIC DIAGRAMS
:link: viewtopic.php?f=225&t=12968

Switching to a rebuilt generator or rebuilt alternator with the new voltage regulator may become complicated because of your trade-in situation and the condition and model of the existing use generator on your Corvair. You may or may not have a suitable trade-in.

An alternator conversion is a modification that is a common upgrade in EM Corvairs. It requires changing the oil filter/generator adapter to provide a proper mount, and removing the old charging system and replacing it with a new alternator. Many suitable alternators have an internal integrated electronic voltage regulator, which can simplify the upgrade by eliminating the old external voltage regulator configuration.
A conversion from a generator to an alternator in 1960-1964 Corvairs is often a topic of conversation and sometimes confusion. I have located some good material on this subject, and have compiled it here. Hopefully this information will be of some help.

There are several options in the conversion:
  • Use an externally regulated 10DN Delco alternator, as seen on late model 1965-69 Corvairs.
  • Use an internally regulated 10SI or 12SI Delco alternator off a slightly later GM product.
  • A true one wire setup. Here a special self exciting regulator is installed in a 10SI style alternator. Control of the dash idiot light is lost if this is used.

    The explanation shown below, along with its website link, seems to be one of the best explanations I've seen seen that describes some of the Delco alternator options available that could be fitted to a Corvair. (Keep in-mind the reverse rotation of the Corvair engine, which does not affect the alternator charging system but must be considered when fitting a cooling fan and pulley to the alternator — since the cooling fans are designed to rotate either clockwise or counter-clockwise. Proper air circulation is important for cooling an alternator).

    A standard Corvair alternator output capacity:
    • Alternator P/N: 1100639 — 35 Amps
    • Alternator P/N: 1100698 — 45 Amps
Greater charging capacities might be considered if the Corvair is fitted with special high-current, high intensity headlamps, some form of electric heater, or a custom sound system with external amplifiers supporting a special speaker configuration with subwoofer(s).

An alternator with an internal electronic voltage regulator makes good use of the increased reliability of a solid-state voltage regulator to replace the 1960s vintage external electro-mechanical voltage regulator. However, a switch to a single-wire alternator instead of a 3-wire alternator cannot be justified, and is not desirable in my opinion. The ability of being able to monitor for an intact Corvair cooling system using the instrument panel warning lights (GEN/FAN) is very important. The use of a single wire alternator configuration causes this instrument panel capability to be lost.

Alternator Conversion
DELCO REMY models 10SI & 12SI alternators

Visual Identification and Differences


:link: http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical ... remy.shtml

Image

To replace an EM generator with an alternator, the oil filter and generator mount adaptor must be replaced with the oil filter and alternator mount adaptor found on 1965-1969 Corvair engines.
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

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Trip
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by Trip » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:43 pm

Wait, Did I miss something? No doubt the generator needs to be rebuilt or replaced, but this shouldn't prevent the engine from starting. I'd think this is a separate issue no?

You should be able to just start it with no belt on it for troubleshooting, obviously don't let it run that way for more than a minute or so. Start with the basics, check for spark at the plug wires, coil wire, etc. and check for fuel at the carbs by looking to see if the accelerator pumps are squirting. If the engine won't start most of the time you will find either no spark or no fuel, then trace back through the system to see where the problem is.

Don't ignore the fire hazard issue, many antique cars meet their demise via engine fire.
Ray "Trip" Rodriguez III
Gouldsboro, PA
66 Corsa 140 coupe
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Blair
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by Blair » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:07 am

Could it have been the way I handled the generator while I had it removed? I was being gentle with it I thought, but as I put it back in the bracket snapped on the generator where the bolt goes on the oil filter and generator mount. Only the one towards the front of the car broke off but it still mounts fairly well and the belt still doesn't touch any metal and still should turn well. Tomorrow I will remove the generator and see if the car starts. Any precautions I should take before doing this?

Blair
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by Blair » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:09 am

I meant remove the belt and see if it starts *

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terribleted
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Re: Alternator issues

Unread post by terribleted » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:59 am

Only just do not run it for a long time. Without the engine fan the engine will eventually overheat, but, it would likely take over 15 mins for it to get really hot even in hot weather.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia

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