Fuel

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TheCommish
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Fuel

Unread post by TheCommish » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:13 pm

Engine runs fine, car was idle for many years. Ran just fine to gas station, filled it with gas, 11.5 gallons, 3 miles later, must be debris in pump. Previous owner added electric pump in parallel with stock pump, as he had fuel issue. NO fuel filter...I think. Photo is electric pump, is that a filter on back side?
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b74eqcm
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by b74eqcm » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:57 pm

Yes, the small can to the right of the pump is a filter. You really didn't complete your thought. 3 miles later, what happened? Engine died? Wouldn't restart? You checked for gas in the carbs and there wasn't any? More info please.
Jim Thomas
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terribleted
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by terribleted » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:31 pm

You do not say what exactly happened "3 mile later". I am guessing that since you suspect debris that you now have no fuel flow. First place to check is at the carbs. If no or weak flow then some inline filter may be plugged, or the pickup in the tank could be restricted.

How nasty is it in the tank? Car has been sitting for years you say. One of the first things you do to a car that has been sitting for years is remove the fuel sending unit, drain the tank and inspect the fuel pickup and the condition of the tank. If it is rusty and/or full of crud, replacement of the tank is the best option or issues may chase you forever.

You say the electric fuel pump is in "parallel" with the stock one? How is the additional fuel line from the electric fuel pump at the front of the car to the carbs run? How does it T into the carbs? Is this additional fuel line running the length of the car steel or rubber? Are there any rubber joiners in the engine bay? If there are you are asking for a fire.

I can not tell from your photo but that filter on the electric pump need to be between the pump and the fuel tank. It purpose is to keep the pump from getting plugged with debris from the tank.
Last edited by terribleted on Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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TheCommish
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by TheCommish » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:37 pm

My Mistake, Electric pump is in series with stock pump.
After 3 miles, starving for fuel, 1st & 2nd gear for 5 miles home, engine stalling out several times, made it home though.

TheCommish
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by TheCommish » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:39 pm

b74eqcm wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:57 pm
Yes, the small can to the right of the pump is a filter. You really didn't complete your thought. 3 miles later, what happened? Engine died? Wouldn't restart? You checked for gas in the carbs and there wasn't any? More info please.
Is this filter replaceable, or able to clean it out?

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Re: Fuel

Unread post by TheCommish » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:41 pm

5 miles to home, engine stalling, 1st and 2nd gear able to get home though

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terribleted
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by terribleted » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:22 pm

TheCommish wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:39 pm
b74eqcm wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:57 pm
Yes, the small can to the right of the pump is a filter. You really didn't complete your thought. 3 miles later, what happened? Engine died? Wouldn't restart? You checked for gas in the carbs and there wasn't any? More info please.
Is this filter replaceable, or able to clean it out?
The filter is replaceable, just need to get one from the manufacturer that supplied the pump. How do you know it is plugged up? First you must VERIFY fuel flow to the carbs (or not) by removing a fuel line and cranking the engine to see if and how much fuel comes out. Care must be taken to catch the fuel and not make sparks so as to not start a fire (ignition disconnected so the engine does not start while crank pumping fuel into a cup. Procedure for checking fuel delivery are in the shop manual. Once you have verified your suspected problem (low flow) you start looking for clogged filters (if flow is good from line not connected to carb there is a filter in the inlet of each carb as well that can clog), or cracked rubber hoses (loose connections) that can let air into the system so the pumps can not properly pump. If you find a plugged filter or filters then changing the filter is NOT the answer. Yes you must changed a plugged filter, BUT, you must really eliminate the debris to keep the issue from recurring. If you find any debris you really need to drain the tank, remove the fuel sender and inspect it and the tank. replace parts as needed. Any substantial crap in the tank and the best fix is replace it.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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66vairguy
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by 66vairguy » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:55 pm

Most of the electric pumps I've seen had the filter on the INPUT to the electric pump. In fact the instructions warn that removing the filter from the input voids the warranty.

The filter is small and will plug up quickly if the tank is dirty or rusty. I usually remove the "little" filter and use a bigger metal can "G2" filter that has 5/16" fittings.

gnrand
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by gnrand » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:14 am

There is a sock type filter located at the pickup inside your gas tank. It might be something to look at.
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bbodie52
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:08 am

I found an electric fuel pump listed on Amazon.com that looks like the pump in your picture. I don't see a replacement filter listed separately, but a new pump and filter is only $16.99.

Megaflint E8012S Universal Electric Fuel Pump Low Pressure 5-9 PSI 12V w/ Installation Kit

:link: https://www.amazon.com/Megaflint-Univer ... pump&psc=1

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I'm not really clear on your installation. You indicate that the pump is installed "in parallel" to your original mechanical pump. Does this mean your electric fuel pump is bypassing the mechanical pump, and feeding the carburetors directly? Or is it pumping to the mechanical pump inlet, with the mechanical pump still pumping to the carburetors?

The specs for the original mechanical pump are 4-5 psi pressure and a delivery volume of 1 pint in 40 seconds or less. The electric pump specs indicate an output pressure of 5-9 psi, which is somewhat high for the Rochester carburetors. If the electric pump is simply pumping to the mechanical pump inlet, and the mechanical pump is still functional, the mechanical pump may be acting as a pressure regulator as the final output device to the carburetors. In such a configuration the electric pump serves little purpose and could likely be removed, since the mechanical pump is capable of pulling the fuel all the way from the tank and then pressurizing the fuel for delivery to the carburetors. If the electric pump is pumping directly to the carburetors, you may want to disconnect the fuel feed line from the carburetors and measure the output pressure (with an automotive vacuum/pressure test gauge). The delivery volume should be measured into a container, to ensure adequate fuel delivery to the carburetors.

An alternate MegaFlint electric fuel pump is listed on Amazon.com in the same price range, but with a correct output pressure for the Corvair of only 2.5 - 4 psi.
:link: https://www.amazon.com/MegaFlint-Standa ... pump&psc=1
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A similar pump is listed under the Bravex label with a similar price and pressure specs...
:link: https://www.amazon.com/Bravex-Standard- ... +fuel+pump

The original pump in this design is also listed. It is made by Facet and sells for $47.42 on Amazon.com. The Facet pump has a good reputation for reliability. It looks like the cheaper pumps, but I'm not sure who makes the cheaper pumps or how reliable they would be.

Facet FEP42SV Cube Electric Fuel Pump 1.5-4 Psi, Includes Clamps/Fittings/Filter
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:link: https://www.amazon.com/Facet-FEP42SV-El ... +fuel+pump

If the electric pump is not meeting minimal specifications, it may need to be replaced. Corvair fuel tank outlets often include fuel strainer that is inside the tank and attached to the outlet tubing. If your tank contains a lot of debris and trash it could be clogging the outlet that feeds fuel by gravity to the pump. Electric pump inputs should be filtered, to protect the pump. But if your tank is rusty or dirty inside, it may need to be flushed and/or replaced. Also, an electric pump should be wired to include one or more safety switches. These safety switches cut power to the pump if the engine stops (no oil pressure to turn the switch on). A secondary inertia safety switch is also often used to cut the pump power in the event of an accident. If your pump does not include a safety switch configuration, you may want to consider modifying the installation to include one or both safety switch types.

Part number C261: 60-65 GAS TANK STRAINER (FITS 60-69)

Weight: 0 lbs 2 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 69(2A)
Price: $ 8.30


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You will have to examine your pump configuration to determine if an electric pump is serviceable, if it is really needed and if the installation is safe, if the tank is dirty and possibly clogging the output, or if you could revert to the mechanical pump alone (if it is serviceable). Let us know what you find.
Brad Bodie
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by 66vairguy » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:44 am

If you read the ENTIRE description from Brad it does note the first pump he listed at 5-9PSI is INCORRECT. You need a pump rated for no more than 4 or 5 PSI (ignore the lower number in the range).

Most use the AirTex E8016S or the Faucet 40105 (kit # 40101 or 40242). Both are rated for a maximum fuel pressure of 4.5PSI. Be aware some vendors have sold the incorrect E8012S for the Corvair by mistake in the past.

TheCommish
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by TheCommish » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:29 pm

I am really thinking of removing the Electric Pump, as the Stock pump works.

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bbodie52
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:40 pm

If you do decide to remove the electric fuel pump and return to the original mechanical fuel pump configuration, the information below may be useful in helping you to confirm proper operation of the mechanical fuel pump. Making sure that the pump is correctly installed and secured, and that the fuel line between the gas tank and the pump inlet is airtight (to permit a vacuum to be established by the mechanical fuel pump to draw the fuel the length of the car and into the pump) is important. Also, you should confirm the condition of the fuel tank to make sure that internal rust and corrosion is not contaminating the gasoline. A problem here will not be resolved by changing your fuel pump configuration. If the tank is badly decayed you may end up replacing it. New gas tanks and their associated hardware are readily available from sources such as Clark's Corvair Parts, if you determine that a new tank is needed.

Fuel Tank Removal & Installation
:link: http://www.corvairforum.com/forum/viewt ... 225&t=5779

The mechanical fuel pump in the Corvair must create a vacuum to pull the gasoline from the fuel tank the entire length of the car to the engine at the rear. It is something like sucking on a straw. The mechanical fuel pump does a pretty good job at this, but if there is an air leak anywhere between the fuel tank outlet and the fuel pump inlet, the mechanical fuel pump will not be able to pull the fuel into the pump. Since you stated that you replaced these two hoses, and you are now having difficulty getting the engine started, there is a possibility that the new hoses may not be tightly sealing and may possibly be permitting air to leak into the fuel line. Since this long line is not under pressure, a poor connection may not be obvious since no fuel would be observed dripping from the line. But an air leak in the line could potentially prevent the necessary vacuum from being formed by the mechanical fuel pump — making it impossible for fuel to reach the pump so that it can be pressurized and delivered to the carburetors.

I would recommend that you disconnect the pressurized steel fuel line at the carburetor inlet and perform a fuel volume test as outlined in the shop manual section shown below. The fuel pump should be the able to deliver at least 1 pint of fuel in 40 seconds or less while the engine is being cranked. If no fuel is coming out of the fuel pump while cranking the engine, I would be suspicious of the new hoses that you installed recently, and would recommend rechecking the hoses and hose clamps to ensure a tight seal.

Did you perform any other work other than replacing the fuel line hoses?
bbodie52 wrote:The stock Corvair mechanical fuel pump has proven itself in performance and reliability for decades through millions of Corvairs. There is a tendency to quickly abandon it and go running to an electric fuel pump replacement at the first sign of apparent trouble. Old age can certainly be a drawback, or weakness with this pump, but many continue to survive. There was certainly a period of poor quality aftermarket replacement pumps, and rebuild kits are no longer available. But if you begin having what appears to be carburetor problems, don't be too quick to condemn the pump.

There are two relatively simple tests outlined in the Corvair shop manual. These tests measure output pressure and fuel delivery volume. The output pressure test utilizes a common vacuum/pressure gauge and is relatively inexpensive. The output pressure is regulated by an internal spring that is contained in the upper pump housing. Unless your pump springs a leak in one of the diaphragms or seals, it is likely that the output pressure will not change with age. However, new pumps may be fitted with a spring that produces an output pressure well in excess of the 4-5 psi standard. High-pressure can cause carburetor flooding, and is particularly a problem with the Carter YH found on turbocharged Corvairs.

The second test measures fuel flow at the fuel pump outlet. The standard in the shop manual states that the pump should be able to deliver 1 pint of fuel over a period of 40 seconds or less at engine cranking speed. If your pump does not appear to have any leaks and can pass the output pressure test, but fails to deliver the needed fuel volume, the problem may not be with the pump itself. There is a long fuel line that runs the length of the car from the fuel tank to the fuel pump. In order to pressurize and deliver fuel to the carburetors, the pump must be able to create a continuous vacuum in that fuel line to draw the fuel from the tank to the pump. Most of the fuel line is made up of steel tubing and is unlikely to develop a leak. However, there are two short lengths of rubber fuel hose in the fuel path. One section of hose is found at the fuel tank outlet, while the other is found adjacent to the starter motor — just before the line enters the engine compartment. The purpose of the second hose is to absorb vibration from the engine and prevent it from reaching the rigid steel fuel line. If either one of these two hoses develops a leak, the leak itself may not be apparent because the line is not under pressure so fuel will not be forced out. Instead, the leak amounts to a vacuum leak, which can allow air to enter the fuel line. This can prevent fuel from being drawn from the tank to the fuel pump, much like you might experience with a drinking straw if the straw was to split and developed an air leak in the side of the straw. What appears to be a faulty pump that is causing fuel starvation problems in the carburetors often turns out to be a leak in the fuel line at some point between the gas tank and the fuel pump. So if fuel starvation becomes a problem with your carburetors, there is a tendency to question the condition of the needle and seat valve inside the carburetor, or to blame the fuel filter at the carburetor inlet (thinking is clogged), or to blame the fuel pump itself. Before you blame the pump and toss it, or abandon it and replace it with electric fuel pump, be sure to check the condition of the rubber fuel hoses at each end of the long fuel line between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. You may find that a couple of hose clamps and a few inches of replacement fuel hose is all that necessary to get you back on the road! :doh:
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There is also a fuel tank strainer inside the gas tank on the outlet tube. It was listed as a part used in 1960-1965 Corvairs, but it could be installed on any model year. It is conceivable that this strainer could become plugged and could restrict fuel flow to the fuel pump.

ImageImageImage

Also, if you have any reason to remove and reinstall the fuel pump, be sure that you have installed it properly. I would confirm that the fuel pump is correctly seated and installed. There is a hole in the side of the pump shaft that the tapered bolt tip must seat into. If the pump is sitting too high and the bolt is simply pressing against the side of the pump housing, rather than seating inside the tapered hole, the pump push rod will not be doing its job. So first confirm proper pump installation, and then check the fuel pump output pressure and volume, as shown in the shop manual pages above. Fig. 57 in the shop manual page shows the tapered hole that the tip of the bolt fits into. This ensures proper installation and seating of the pump.

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:chevy:
Brad Bodie
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by terribleted » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:44 pm

TheCommish wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:29 pm
I am really thinking of removing the Electric Pump, as the Stock pump works.
I am confused. Did you fix your fuel delivery problem? Or was it a fuel delivery problem?
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia

TheCommish
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Re: Fuel

Unread post by TheCommish » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:26 pm

Allow me to try to explain, just bought the car. Drove it a few miles, ran great. Filled the gas tank with 11.5 gallons . 3 miles later, engine kept stalling, drove home at 10mph, appeared to be starving for gas. Previous owner had electric fuel pump installed, because engine was getting vapor lock. I have done nothing yet. Tomorrow I will attempt to remove gas. I want to bypass the electric pump, and see if debris was closing electric pump

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Re: Fuel ++

Unread post by TheCommish » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:36 am

I have now drained all gas, removed the Electric Fuel Pump, installed Gas filter at Tank side and put 2 gas gas in it,. Now another issue.....Engine won't turn over.
Attempted by hand using the belt, am I in a 3 day old Vapor Lock?

Previous owner said "I installed an electric fuel pump because I was getting intermittent Vapor Lock".....
Should I re install an electric Pump?

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