PCV

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Ayr Hed
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PCV

Post by Ayr Hed »

switching from Corvair Talk thread.......re: air cleaners...ordered custom aircleaners for my 110 twin carb motor...no provision for PCV....at Corvair 1 site, I read the "tutorial" on running a road tube to deal with the no provision for PCV on these aircleaners...my PCV plumbing has a "bypass ?" that runs between #3 and #5 through the shroud..if I plug off the hose that goes to the aircleaner, will that be sufficient to avoid fumes entering heater/ passenger compartment ? Tutorial mentions using a '60-'61 roadtube that runs through shroud then between cylinders...I assume that the current bypass dumps out into fan air flow ?? If so will this provide adaquate PCV ventilation ??..if not, and I need to run the road tube..will it just slip in through the top of the shroud in the current hole ?
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'64 Monza coupe 110/4 spd
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Re: PCV

Post by 64powerglide »

I don't know why GM figured they needed that bypass hose going to the air cleaner, I would think the vacuum tube would work fine for venting the crankcase. Just cap that fitting & see how she works.
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Re: PCV

Post by bbodie52 »

I believe it has to do with the engine speed (RPM) and the state of intake manifold vacuum at different throttle positions. In some operating conditions, intake manifold vacuum is high and draws crankcase fumes effectively through the PCV valve or fixed orifice (a calibrated vacuum leak). But if the throttle is opened wide, intake manifold vacuum may drop, while crankcase pressures increase as the engine works harder and spins faster. If the vacuum port fails to draw off enough crankcase pressure, it has to have someplace to go (other than out through the dipstick tube, while spraying oil all over the engine). That is one purpose of the link to the air cleaner — to permit the crankcase to "breath" as filtered air and excess fumes are allowed to be drawn in through the carburetor throat.

It is critical that the parts of the PCV system be kept clean and open, otherwise airflow will be insufficient. If you close off the air cleaner portion of the PCV system, you will likely be giving your engine an oil bath from time to time as excess crankcase pressure exits via the dipstick tube — forcing crankcase oil up the tube along with the pressure and spraying oil everywhere! :nono: :sad5:

If you want to know more, you can use the following link to read a Wikipedia article. I have also included a series of videos to further explain the PCV system. The key is to keep it operating as the engineers designed it. All parts of the PCV system are essential to allow it to operate properly, reduce crankcase pressures and to reduce oil contamination.

:link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase_ ... ion_system



PART 1


PART 2


PART 3


PART 4


PART 5


PART 6
Brad Bodie
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Ayr Hed
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Re: PCV

Post by Ayr Hed »

I hear you Brad....what have other guys done to address this issue of no PCV provisions on custom air cleaners ? Run a road tube without the PCV valve ? That's the way it was done on Granddad's 1951 Pontiac !
'64 Monza coupe 110/4 spd
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Re: PCV

Post by bbodie52 »

The videos above point out that the early engines that were equipped only with a road draft tube ended up with sludge buildup and oil contamination as the blowby caused excessive crankcase contamination that was not handled adequately by the road draft tube system. The engines did not last as long and the air was contaminated by the crankcase exhaust fumes from millions of road draft tubes. The development of the PCV system greatly improved crankcase ventilation and reduced the development of oil contamination and crankcase sludge. At the same time it reduced smog and air contamination by burning the crankcase fumes before they exited the engine via the tailpipe.

In your other post I included some photos and a link showing how Corvair owners have modified the Corvair PCV system to function as originally designed with custom air cleaner systems. Here is that link...

:link: http://www.persh.org/Corvairs/PCVsystem.htm
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Re: PCV

Post by 64powerglide »

I would think with the throttle wide open your vacuum would be at maximum in the balance tube but as you said more pressure build up might be more than it can handle even at maximum vacuum. Is it possible to put a vacuum gauge on each inlet & see how much vacuum it has at different RPM's. I would shorten the oil tube as short as I could get it to try to try to prevent the oil from coming up. How far into the crankcase does the PCV tube go, 1/2 inch through the top of the block? Guess it's trial & error????
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Ayr Hed
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Re: PCV

Post by Ayr Hed »

Thanks Brad...QED :tu:
'64 Monza coupe 110/4 spd
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Re: PCV

Post by 64powerglide »

Those carb photo's look like the best way to go. I had a 65 Spitfire with SU's & I put Chrome air cleaners on & on one I drilled the back & put on a 1/4 pipe nipple then a hose to the vented valve cover. About the same thing as those adaptors for the air cleaners in the photo's. Problem solved I would say, at least a good idea of how. :tu:
Brad, I don't know where you find all this info but I know everyone appreciates it. :ty:
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Re: PCV

Post by bbodie52 »

64powerglide wrote:I would think with the throttle wide open your vacuum would be at maximum in the balance tube but as you said more pressure build up might be more than it can handle even at maximum vacuum. Is it possible to put a vacuum gauge on each inlet & see how much vacuum it has at different RPM's. I would shorten the oil tube as short as I could get it to try to try to prevent the oil from coming up. How far into the crankcase does the PCV tube go, 1/2 inch through the top of the block? Guess it's trial & error????
When your car is idling-whether it's fuel injected or carbureted-the throttle plate or plates are restricting the amount of air the engine can breathe in. The pistons are attempting to "suck" the mixture past the throttle. (Of course, in reality, it is atmospheric pressure that is attempting to "push" air into the engine as the pistons travel downward on their intake strokes.) When throttle is closed, vacuum is high in the intake manifold, from the throttle plate(s) to the combustion chambers. By contrast, at wide open throttle there is relatively little restriction to outside air entering the intake manifold, so vacuum in the manifold is very low.

When you floor the accelerator pedal, you can watch manifold pressure (another word for vacuum) swing from strongly negative to nearly zero (atmospheric pressure). When your engine is "on the overrun," like using engine braking down a steep hill at high RPM, you'll see really high vacuum readings. Naturally, turbocharged and supercharged will show very different results, with readings swinging into the positive at high speed. IAP's vacuum gauge is not designed for turbo or supercharged vehicles. Your vacuum gauge is also a sort of "poor man's" fuel mileage indicator; when vacuum is low, you are burning more fuel.
http://www.international-auto.com/fiat- ... gauges.cfm

On a carbureted engine, manifold vacuum (and vacuum in the Corvair vacuum balance tube) is at its highest when the throttle butterfly valves in the carburetors are closed. High RPM with the throttles closed (as when coasting and decelerating) increases manifold vacuum to the maximum — produced as the pistons attempt to draw in air on the intake stroke at a high RPM with the intake openings closed.

When the throttle is opened, intake manifold vacuum approaches zero. As engine RPM increases with the throttles open, intake air velocity increases as the speeding pistons rapidly pump (draw) more air volume through the carburetor throats. This airflow creates a vacuum within the carburetor restriction (venturi) that draws fuel from the float bowl to mix with the airflow passing through the venturi. The resulting fuel/air mixture feeds each cylinder during the intake stroke, which provides a compressed combustible fuel/air mixture that ignites and produces the power stroke. This is why the above description states "Your vacuum gauge is also a sort of "poor man's" fuel mileage indicator; when vacuum is low, you are burning more fuel. When the throttles are open, vacuum is low, but air velocity is high — drawing in more fuel through the carburetor venturis which increases engine power.

Getting back to the PCV system, it was designed by engineers to deal with crankcase ventilation requirements in a wide range of engine operating conditions — full throttle, closed throttle, partial throttle, high RPM, low RPM, and everything in-between. The baffle plate and vents, the PCV tube, the PCV valve or fixed vacuum orifice that is connected to the vacuum balance tube, and the PCV breather connected to the air cleaner, are all part of a dynamic system design that is intended to function continuously during all engine operating conditions.

Shortening the dipstick tube to prevent oil from being ejected because of excessive crankcase pressure buildup should not be necessary or desirable. Excess crankcase pressure buildup that would force oil out of the dipstick tube is an indicator, or symptom, of either a faulty PCV system and/or excessive piston blowby due to bad rings, pistons, or cylinders. Modifying the dipstick tube does not fix the problem! A compression test or a leakdown test will reveal a faulty piston seal. An inspection of the PCV system would reveal any faults with that system.
Crankcase Cover and Vent
Crankcase Cover and Vent
PCV Tube Connections.jpg
Corvair Crankcase Ventilation (1963-1969) and Turbo
Corvair Crankcase Ventilation (1963-1969) and Turbo
Conclusion

The goal of the Corvair owner is to maintain the PCV system operation originally intended by GM engineers by cleaning the system (PCV Valve or Fixed Orifice) regularly. If the system is modified — as with the installation of custom air cleaners — the original tubing connections must be re-established with the newly installed custom air cleaners to ensure proper operation of the PCV system. A road draft tube is a poor substitute, as would be installing valve cover breathers or an oil filler cap breather. The properly operating PCV system minimizes crankcase contamination caused by normal piston blowby, which helps to prolong the life of the engine and ensure proper operation.
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Re: PCV

Post by Spyder4364 »

I have a 64 spyder with a lot of modifications big pistons custom cam 140 heads big wheel on 65 turbo 65 turbo carburetor MSD ignition with electronic boost controller with dash adjustable control.a knock sensor on the dash. If I am not very careful the boost will peg the gauge at 20 psi but is higher than that. I have had problems with oil being blown out the dip stick which I know have controlled with high vacuum in the crank case pulling just before the turbo wheel and thru a oil separator can in line I would like a recommendation for oil and oil volume I have all the Otto pan and valve covers plus a main connector plate so I really don’t know how much oil to put in
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Re: PCV

Post by terribleted »

Stock dipstick? Still needs to be full on the dipstick. add oil until it is at the full mark. If it is empty when you start and you keep track how much you put in you will then know the capacity.
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Re: PCV

Post by steptoe »

Hey I need help. Bought a 64 Monza last year and now trying to find the pcv valve. I can't find one and looking at all these descriptions I don't think I have one. Car has been extensively modified by previous owner. Converted to a 140 - 4 carb system with electric fuel pump. Carbs kept backfiring so I pulled all 4 and found missing parts and lots of crud in the secondaries. Primary looked good. Now with all carbs removed I began searching for the pcv to install a new one. Not there. The top engine/fan cover does not have the pcv tube coming through which should be between cylinders 3 and 5. See attached pic of my setup.
My question is how to connect/reinstall a pcv system and where does it connect to the engine under the shroud or lower case? Can someone send a picture? Thanks, David
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Re: PCV

Post by terribleted »

steptoe wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:24 pm Hey I need help. Bought a 64 Monza last year and now trying to find the pcv valve. I can't find one and looking at all these descriptions I don't think I have one. Car has been extensively modified by previous owner. Converted to a 140 - 4 carb system with electric fuel pump. Carbs kept backfiring so I pulled all 4 and found missing parts and lots of crud in the secondaries. Primary looked good. Now with all carbs removed I began searching for the pcv to install a new one. Not there. The top engine/fan cover does not have the pcv tube coming through which should be between cylinders 3 and 5. See attached pic of my setup.
My question is how to connect/reinstall a pcv system and where does it connect to the engine under the shroud or lower case? Can someone send a picture? Thanks, David
The top shroud you have appears to be from a 61-62 model which did not have the upwards pointing PCV tube. Is there aw metal tube coming out the bottom of the right side of the engine through the lower shroud? (the early engines just exhaust crankcase fumes down under the car). To connect a proper PCV system to your 140 you would need the tube that connects to the right side of the engine top cover and comes up through the top shroud. You would also need the little clamps that secures the pipe as well as a later top shroud with the hole in it (or make a hole in that one), and an orifice tube to go into the PCV pipe out of the top of the engine. Here is a photo of a 110 engine setup. It is very similar to the 140 setup but the 140 top tube is longer and turns left at the end to fit to the grommet in the stock 140 air cleaner. In all cases the open end of the PCV tube should be routed to a primary carb or carbs for the excess gasses to be reburned.

Other notes. Your alternator fan is incorrect it is the wrong rotation for the Corvair engine. you need one with the blades angled the other way to cool properly in CCW rotation. You have a LOT of rubber fuel hoses in the engine bay. This is not a good idea from a fire danger point of view. All fuel lines in the engine bay should be hard lined. I also not that the secondary carbs both have primary carb bases. This may or may not cause an issue depending on adjustments.
IMG_4621[1].JPG
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Re: PCV

Post by steptoe »

Working on pipes for the fuel lines. I have receipts for the secondary carbs he bought from Clark's. I thought secondaries were identical to primary except no chokes and different jets. I drove it about 800 miles from Des Moine, Iowa to Biloxi, Ms when I bought it. Took over 16 hours. Only problem was he also changed the rear end ratio so at 65 mph I was wound up over 4000 rpm. He also had the carbs running super rich. Tons of black smoke. Was worried I would dilute the oil but it was ok. I stayed at about 60 to stay safe for the trip. I definitely wan to reinstall the pcv system to help the back pressure. I have all the necessary tubes, clamps, o-rings, etc. on order. Oh, I thought the alternator fan is the correct one. At least I haven't had any trouble yet. Very through information on a PCV system and well explained. Thanks again for your help.
Last edited by steptoe on Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PCV

Post by terribleted »

Secondary carbs have no idle speed or mixture screws. nor do they have any vacuum ports for the choke pulloffs etc.
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Re: PCV

Post by bbodie52 »

Before PCV systems were integrated into the automobile engine, engine sludge development was often found in cars where the owner seldom changed the oil — which often led to excessive oil contamination buildup caused by engine piston blowby introducing contaminants into the crankcase and engine oil. Road draft tubes were never more than barely adequate in allowing pressure and fumes to exit the crankcase. The Positive Crankcase Ventilation systems did a much-better job, which greatly reduced the development of sludge in neglected engines.
Image
The Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system was designed by engineers to deal with crankcase ventilation requirements in a wide range of engine operating conditions — full throttle, closed throttle, partial throttle, high RPM, low RPM, and everything in-between. The baffle plate and vents, the PCV tube, the PCV valve or fixed vacuum orifice that is connected to the engine intake, and the PCV breather connected to the air cleaner, are all part of a dynamic system design that is intended to function continuously during all engine operating conditions.

1962 and earlier Corvair engines did not have a PCV system. Like most earlier engines, they were fitted instead with a simple road draft tube.

Image

Image

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When road draft tubes were used, they were simple unfiltered tubes that routed from the Corvair crankcase cover directly downward, where they vented through a hole in the sheet metal cover under the right side of the engine, adjacent to the oil pan. There was never a tee on it that connected via an orifice to manifold vacuum at that time. The first stage of Positive Crankcase Ventilation that appeared around 1963 utilized an appropriately-sized vent restriction (PCV valve design AC-CV584) that limited the amount of crankcase fumes and air that could be drawn into the vacuum balance tube that connected at the base of the carburetors to the intake manifold. This was essentially a "vacuum leak" that was engineered into the system to draw some of the crankcase fumes into the intake manifolds to be burned as they passed through the combustion chambers and ultimately out through the engine exhaust system.

Part of the main vent tube is ALSO CONNECTED TO THE AIR CLEANER. This allows those excess crankcase pressures that cannot be completely drawn through the PCV valve and into the intake manifold to be managed by instead having them drawn through the air cleaner assembly and into the carburetor intake throats. The secondary vent path into the air cleaner assembly allows for excess crankcase pressures that routinely occur at higher engine speeds and that would also routinely overwhelm the limitations of the PCV valve vent path. (This necessary connection also allows air that is filtered by the air cleaner air filter to access the engine crankcase, providing a balancing effect for the crankcase so that crankcase vacuum and pressure can be maintained at approximately normal atmospheric pressure). Without the connection to the air cleaner assembly, the sealed crankcase has no way to "breathe", because half of the normal PCV system design would have been omitted.

The fixed orifice only became a part of the PCV system in 1964-1969. The use of a fixed orifice was not a part of the 1964 system in Forward Control (FC) vehicles and in air conditioned cars, because of clearance limitations in the van and truck engine compartments and in cars equipped with air conditioning. Those vehicles retained the earlier design of the air cleaner assembly with its associated PCV valve design (AC-CV584).

All PCV systems have connection between the main vent tube and the air cleaner, which is necessary for proper crankcase ventilation. With the use of custom individual air cleaners, you can replicate the portion of the PCV system that is missing by installing a connection to the right air cleaner. The custom air cleaner can be modified to provide a hose connection at its base.


Crankcase ventilation systems are designed to control the balance of air pressure between the engine crankcase and atmospheric pressure while processing the accompanying fumes. The overall volume of blow-by varies due to cylinder pressure, piston ring pressure and component wear.

Venting the emissions to the atmosphere is a simple solution to release the pressure and trapped fumes. This was done on Corvair engines from 1960 - 1962, using a Road Draft Tube. With the road draft tube, the open end faces down and is located in the vehicle's slipstream. When the vehicle is moving, airflow across the open end of the tube creates a draft that pulls gases out of the crankcase. It does not function when the vehicle is moving too slowly to create a draft. Systems using the road draft tube had a tendency to have increased contamination build up in the crankcase because of the relatively poor, inconsistent operation of the road draft tube system. Frequent oil changes were needed to reduce contamination build up in the crankcase and valve train areas, called ENGINE SLUDGE. Sludge is a gel-like fluid that can seriously damage your engine. Thousands of vehicles using this system also contaminated the atmosphere, causing increased problems with SMOG contamination.

Image ImageImage
Sludge Contamination

From 1963-1969, Corvair crankcase fumes were managed by an ingestive system, which vents the blow-by back into the engine, where it returns to the combustion process. The ingestive crankcase ventilation system routes any crankcase emissions into the intake air stream, where it is re-burned in the combustion process. This system is known as Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV). Fumes are drawn back through the intake system into the combustion chambers via two paths. One path is via a PCV valve or a fixed metered orifice into the vacuum balance tube and then directly into the intake manifolds. At some engine speeds and throttle position settings the engine vacuum is low, so a secondary path is needed that vents the fumes into the intake system via the air cleaner housing and then through the carburetor intake, instead of a direct path to the intake manifold.

DISCONNECTING THE PCV SYSTEM FROM THE AIR CLEANER HOUSING IS OFTEN DONE WHEN INSTALLING CUSTOM AIR CLEANERS ON THE CORVAIR. OWNERS OFTEN SUBSTITUTE A SMALL FILTER ATTACHED TO THE END OF THE PCV TUBE, AS SHOWN IN THE PICTURE AT THE TOP OF THIS ARTICLE. THIS IS AN INADEQUATE MODIFICATION THAT CAUSES SOME CRANKCASE FUMES TO BE VENTED INTO THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT, WHERE THEY CAN BE DRAWN INTO THE COOLING SYSTEM BY THE ENGINE FAN. The fumes can then enter the passenger compartment via the heater and defroster!

The correct way is to purchase or fabricate a PCV system air cleaner adaptor, like the one shown below. The PCV tube should then be reattached to the custom air cleaner to vent the system back through the carburetor. It is not necessary to attach the PCV system to air cleaners on both sides of the engine. Re-connection of the PCV system to an air cleaner housing on either side is sufficient, and will prevent fumes from entering the engine cooling air path.


Image

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg- ... gKpP_D_BwE

Crankcase emissions result from combustion byproducts and/or exhaust fumes escaping around the piston rings and into the crankcase. These escaping fumes are commonly called blow-by. If not controlled, the blow-by can contaminate the lubricating oil and pressurize the crankcase, possibly leading to an oil leak.

Elements found in blow-by can include wear particles, oil, fuel, gas and air. The specific composition of the elements varies due to fuel type, engine type, engine speed, load and maintenance history. Typically, blow-by is made up of hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrogen oxides (NOX), water vapor and traces of sulfates and aldehydes. Crankcase hydrocarbon emissions are normally 3% of the total exhaust emissions tested at the mid-life of the engines. However, due to piston ring tolerances, crankcase hydrocarbon emissions can increase to 20% of the total hydrocarbon emissions.

*******************************************************************************************************

The attached documents, DELCO ROCHESTER - Models H, HV Carburetor Service Guide, 1965 Corvair Assembly Manual - CARBURETOR & FUEL SYSTEM, 1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL, and 1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL 4x1 Carburetors should help you to see and understand the differences between your 4 carburetor setup that uses a custom throttle linkage and four primary carburetors, and a stock setup.
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DELCO ROCHESTER - Models H, HV Carburetor Service Guide.pdf
DELCO ROCHESTER - Models H, HV Carburetor Service Guide
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1965 Corvair Assembly Manual - CARBURETOR & FUEL SYSTEM.pdf
1965 Corvair Assembly Manual - CARBURETOR & FUEL SYSTEM
(3.92 MiB) Downloaded 41 times
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL.pdf
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL
(8.87 MiB) Downloaded 36 times
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL 4x1 Carburetors.pdf
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL 4x1 Carburetors
(1.53 MiB) Downloaded 32 times
Brad Bodie
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