Hi-Torque Starter - install in '65 Monza HELP !

[TonyCorvair]

I have a '65 Monza 110 HP with Power Glide. I replaced my starter with a Hi-Torque from Clarks the starters wiring configuration is different than the stock starter. Has a two wire config (Battery & purple wire that goes into a Pigtail connection) no connection for Yellow and Black wire that goes to coil. I REALLY wish Clarks told me this and or there was info on the site to warn you that it was different then stock setup / wiring. Anyway . . I'm getting very different suggestions both from Clarks and other forums on how to make this work. Instructions that came with starter say to splice yellow & black wire from engine harness to Switched 12 Volt source. Anyone know which wire that would be in harness ? . I bought a brand new harness and installed . . . so I know the wiring layout reasonably well at this point, I just don't know which wire is 12 Volt switched. In addition, the Clarks tech guy suggested I just splice the Yellow & Black wire into the Purple wire on starter harness. That did not work . . the starter turns over the engine . . but the Coil is not getting the correct voltage. How do I know this ? Good question . . because the same guy at Clarks told me to by pass the Yellow & Black wire with a direct wire from my battery to the Coil . . just to see if it would start (as a test) when I did this the engine fired up like a charm. What he forgot to tell me was to disconnect the wire once it is started . . I watched in glee as my engine ran for 5 minutes before I realized my harness was melting. Anyway. . . I got a new harness .. no big deal . . old one was . . well . . old and kind of brittle. I just hope I did not fry my Coil (got an ignighter 2 electronic ignition) everything else seems to be fine other than not starting.

Does anyone else have this starter ? . . and if so what wire do I run the Yellow and Black that is normally on the stock starter that runs to the Positive side of the Coil. I am a little bit out of my element with electric repairs . . please help if you have experience or suggestions. Starter is in .. in turns over the engine nicely just need to know where the Yellow and Black wire goes to give the coil juice.

Thanks !

Tony Corvair

[UNSAFE]

I use the Clark's starter .

It does not have the bypass circuit to supply battery voltage while cranking so the wire to the coil is eliminated .

In most cases the engine should start fine without it . Mine does but I have electronic ignition.

Not sure why your harness was melting with a hot wire to the coil.

[bbodie52]

Welcome to the Corvair Forum!

Many older vehicles have resistor wires feeding power to the coil when the engine is running. The resistor wires are bypassed when the engine is being started and full battery voltage is fed to the coil to facilitate start-up. These wires were intended to reduce the voltage to the coil once the engine was running in order to extend the life of points. Most of the time an Pertronix Ignitor will work well with the resistor wire left in the circuit. However, in some cases the resistor wire, or its connections, may have deteriorated over time resulting in an excessive voltage drop at the coil.

If you study the wiring diagrams and illustrations below, you will see that the 20 B/Y wire that comes from the standard starter solenoid is spliced to a 20 W/R/B resistor wire that comes from the 12-pin multi-connector on the main engine compartment wiring harness. When the ignition switch is turned all the way to START, 12V DC is applied to the 12 PPL wire on the solenoid, which energizes the solenoid and engages the starter, cranking the engine. While the engine is cranking, 12V DC is applied to the 20 B/Y wire coming out of the solenoid, which temporarily provides a full 12V DC to the ignition coil. This is intended to increase the spark voltage from the coil, but only during the period that the engine is being cranked. This "hotter" spark makes it easier to start the engine. When the key is released, the voltage coming from the solenoid to the the coil is discontinued, which leaves only the lower voltage coming from the 20 W/R/B resistor wire (always present with the ignition switch key ON). The voltage through this resistor wire is reduced to approximately 7V DC. The purpose of reducing to this lower voltage is to extend the life of the stock ignition points, by reducing the operating voltage across the points during engine operation.

The red wire going to the Ignitor II module in the distributor requires a full 12V DC, as shown in the last illustration from the Ignitor instruction sheet. If the 20 B/Y wire from the starter solenoid is left disconnected, the voltage at the (+) terminal of the coil will always be at the lower 7V DC level, even during engine cranking.

You did not mention which ignition coil you are using with the Ignitor II. A standard or Flame Thrower coil has about 3 ohms primary internal resistance, but a Flame Thrower II coil has only 0.6 ohms internal resistance. With a full 12V DC source voltage and no resistor wire in the circuit (as you described earlier), and with only 0.6 ohms coil resistance you would have about 20 amps circuit current, and this may be the reason your ignition wire overheated and melted. (12V DC through 3 ohms coil resistance would produce only about 4 amps of current flow). The low resistance of the Flamethrower II coil coupled with a straight power wire with no resistor wire reducing the source voltage and resulting current might have overheated the circuit with too much current flow. With the resistor wire in the circuit, the current flow through the coil would be reduced, which should reduce potential heat in the primary ignition wire.

Without points, the lower ignition voltage needed to extend the life of the points is no longer an issue. If you are running a standard or Flamethrower coil with 3 ohms primary resistance, bypassing the resistor wire in the circuit would probably be OK and would give you a hotter spark to the spark plugs at all times. But I am not sure what is recommended if you are running a Flamethrower II coil with only 0.6 ohms internal resistance. Such a coil with the resistor wire in the harness bypassed might draw too much current and overheat the wiring harness.

Depending on the coil you are using, you might want to contact Pertronix tech support via the website or by phone, to ask them whether or not to bypass the wiring harness resistor wire in the circuit—especially if you are using the Flamethrower II low resistance coil. The resistor wire can be bypassed by simply moving the 20 B/Y wire that used to be connected to the starter solenoid to the other side of the resistor wire, picking up 12V DC at the 12 pin multi-connector 20 B/P wire, which provides a full 12V DC before it reaches the resistor wire in the wiring harness.

PerTronix, Inc.
440 East Arrow Highway
San Dimas, CA 91773
Phone: (909) 547-9058
Fax: (909) 599-6424
http://www.pertronix.com/default.aspx

According to the Pertronix website, the Ignitor II "Senses engine startup and increases dwell time, providing more energy for starting sparks." This may mean that a lower feed voltage to the coil (through the wiring harness resistor wire) at all times—even during engine cranking—may be OK and will provide adequate spark for starting. This reduced voltage may be desirable to limit current flow in the coil primary circuit. The Flamethrower II coil provides a hotter spark than a standard coil at all times because of the increased current with only 0.6 ohms internal resistance, even at only 7V DC input voltage.

Full normal circuit operation can be restored by adapting a Ford solenoid to your Corvair, in conjunction with the Clark's aftermarket starter, as shown at the end of this post.

1965-1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Harness Starter Connections.jpg (80.88 KiB) Viewed 5920 times

1965-1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Harness Multi-pin Connector.jpg (33.79 KiB) Viewed 5920 times

I did not realize the aftermarket starter sold by Clark's did not provide the switched 12V DC output provided by the standard starter solenoid when it is engaged. This would be a bigger problem with a car that still uses ignition points, since bypassing the resistor in the circuit would cause premature wear, burning and arcing of the points, and running without the solenoid circuit might produce an engine that is more-difficult to start with the resultant lower spark voltage while cranking the engine. A switching solenoid is needed to provide this function, and apparently Clark's has not considered this. I suppose a separate solenoid such as the one used in some Ford products could be adapted and substituted for this missing ignition system switching function when using the high-torque starter. Placing the Ford solenoid in the starter circuit, as shown, and connecting the 20 B/Y wire (that was originally connected to the stock starter solenoid "R" terminal) to the "I" terminal on the Ford solenoid would restore normal operation in the starter and ignition wiring.



Please let me know if you have any questions.

[TonyCorvair]

Brad - thank you very much for such a detailed explanation of what I have going on with my '65 Corvair.
Yes I do have a Flame Thrower 2 Coil W/ an Igniter 2 electronic ignition in the D-Cap. I hope I did not "Cook" the coil
with the wonderful suggestion of Clarks - to bypass the Yellow & Black wire with a direct wire to the Positive side of the
Coil . . it was not running this way for very long, maybe 5 minutes (I noticed the harness melting by the electrical tape it's wrapped in unraveling
like a snake shedding it's Skin !) Stalled the car immediately and noticed that the wires were still intact .. but the white and brown
striped wires were in there way to becoming clue ! I have to say the OLD harness was brittle and was on it's way out to begin with but
I never hand any issues with it. But I guess this was one way to see if the Yellow & Black wire in the starter harness was having an issue, that's why Mark
from Clarks wanted me to bypass it and go directly to the coil. He did not ask me if I had a Flamethrower 2 . . maybe if he did . . we might have not done
this. Anyway - I got a NEW HARNESS it's installed . . all lights and signals are working and I checked the fuse box to see if the overheating issue made it's way under the dash and into the fuse box. No blown fuses . . headlight work brights work and radio and cockpit lights all work.

So . . your suggestion is diode ? ! or Ford Selenoid ?! or is there a way I can tap into the existing NEW Harness at the fire wall (in the engine compartment) and connect to a switched 12 Volt as Clarks suggested ? I am open to whatever is the RIGHT way to do this . . I prefer to do it right once, and not have to think about it failing at the most unexpected time !

Here is a picture of my engine and ignition layout ! THANKS Again for all your help Brad

Tony Corvair

[bbodie52]

The installation of a Ford solenoid simply restores the missing solenoid to ignition coil connector that was lost when you upgraded to the high torque starter. If I were using the high-torque starter provided by Clark's on my Corvair, I would bolt a Ford starter solenoid to the firewall in the engine compartment, near the battery, and route the positive battery cable through it. The other high current side would be routed by a short positive battery cable to the positive terminal on the starter, and a 12 gauge jumper wire would be wired at the new starter solenoid to the start terminal, as shown in the wiring diagram. The original Corvair starter harness would be relocated to the Ford solenoid. The Purple wire would be connected to the "S" (Start) terminal on the Ford Solenoid, and the 20 B/Y wire would be connected to the "I" (Ignition) terminal on the Ford solenoid.

Wired in this manner, when the ignition switch key is turned to START, 12V DC is applied via the Purple wire to the Ford solenoid "S" terminal. This closes the Ford solenoid switch and allows full battery current to pass through from the left to the right large battery terminal and on to the starter. (The jumper wire installed on the starter causes the starter solenoid to engage the drive gear and simultaneously apply voltage to the starter motor, which cranks the engine). At the same time that battery voltage is tied to the starter motor, 12V DC battery voltage also appears at the Ford solenoid "I" terminal, which feeds a full 12V DC to the ignition coil positive terminal—temporarily bypassing the 7 volts resistor wire voltage and bringing the coil voltage to a full 12 Volts, as originally intended and designed in the Corvair wiring. When the key is released the ignition switch returns to ON and the Ford solenoid turns off, which stops the starter and lowers the voltage to the ignition coil from 12V DC to about 7V DC.




The Ford 12 Volt SW3 Starter Solenoid Relay sells for about $17.49 on Amazon.com, but can be purchased locally too at any auto parts store.

http://www.amazon.com/Ford-SW3-Starter- ... d+solenoid


By the way, the Ford solenoid provides a convenient point to connect a remote starter switch when performing maintenance in the engine compartment that requires remote cranking of the engine. One connector terminal of the remote starter switch is clipped to the left battery terminal, and the other clip is attached to the "S" terminal. Pushing the remote starter switch button then allows the mechanic to actuate the starter and crank the engine from the rear of the Corvair.

[Scott V]

If I were using the high-torque starter provided by Clark's on my Corvair, I would bolt a Ford starter solenoid to the firewall and route the positive battery cable through it.

that would work good but take a look @ the mini-starter instructions that i posted. if the clarks and american-pi starters are compatable i would just get the mini-starter harness from american-pi. that install is alot easier & less work than istalling a ford starter solenoid.

-Scott V.

[myhotrod]

I must have missed why a Hi-Torqe was needed for your 65 Monza 110 hp. My friend in Colorado with 65 140 Corsa and 180,000 miles and both of my 65 Monza 110 PG's have never failed to start with no problems ever ( hot 105 deg here in Texas and cold 05 deg in Colorado). Good battery and good wiring and good starter have never failed. Just wondering .

[bbodie52]

I went to the American Pi website and couldn't find any reference to a "mini starter". Do you have a website URL that depicts the components you referred to?

[TonyCorvair]

My starter failed - just turned the key one day . . nothing. I checked the wires - checked the teeth on the torque convertor - all good.

I looked up the problem . . found a number of peeps on the Corvair forums had issues with starters and re-builds. So . . I decided to
go with the Clarks suggestion of a NEW Heavy Duty starter that would work better and weigh less. They felt out the part that the wiring
was NOT STOCK and when I called to ask how do I wire this . . . I got a number of different suggestions. None of them worked. The Starter
turns the engine over and it has started twice without the Yellow & Black wire connected to the coil . . but I suspect it was not getting the
correct juice. I regret getting this starter . . . BIG TIME at this point. It was expensive . . and it was not ready for my wiring config. I melted
my harness by one of the Clarks tech suggestions . .(bypass Yellow & Black wire to Coil by going directly to positive on Coil to see if harness has an issue)
Car started alright . . but tech left out the part where I should remove the wire once started . . my harness has a problem now . . it's melted. Needless to say I've had about enough of this Hi-Torq starter. I blame it on my lack of knowledge of the car . . BUT . . . BUT !

Clarks gives you NO heads UP about it not being STOCK wiring, I don't know why they would do this. I have had many great experiences ordering parts from Clarks over the years . and this is my first gripe about the company. I guess I should have asked more questions. . BUT I did ask a number of times. . "this is made for a '65 Monza w/ Powere Glide . . right ? !" . . ."Yes it is . . !" was the answer.

So here I am . . after I put it in . . drained my battery twice cranking it and melted my harness.

Tony Corvair

[Scott V]

I went to the American Pi website and couldn't find any reference to a "mini starter". Do you have a website URL that depicts the components you referred to?

its not listed on the web site - like a bunch of other stuff they have. i guess they need to spend more time updateing the site than building engines & makeing parts. lol.

take a look @ the instructions i posted. that tells all the info.

-Scott V.

[TonyCorvair]

Hey Scott - where did you post instructions ? !

Thanks !

Tony

[Scott V]

Hey Scott - where did you post instructions ?

look @ my 1st post on this thread. its attached there. i couldnt figure out how to display the pdf file on the forum - so the file is attached.

-Scott V.

[TonyCorvair]

Got it Scott ! Looks exactly like the one I got ! Mine was 235.00 dollars Can I ask how much this one is ? I spoke to Clarks, they are going to do right - by getting me an exact wire to use as a 12 Volt switched wire that will work. Thank you for sending me this info - very helpful !

Tony

[davemotohead]

i got a mini-starter for my 65 car. it didnt need a relay or ford starter solenoid or other stuff. the wires from the starter went right to the stock starter harness.

here are the instructions.

-Scott V.

Hey Scott,so the american Pi Starter comes with a wiring harness and the clarks starter does not? Is it basicaly the same starter but the A-pi one comes with a modifide harness that has provisions to be more "Plug and play" and work out the resistor bypass problem and the clarks starter does not? Do you have a scematic of the Harness? does the American pi starter only have 2 connections like the clarks or 3 like the stock starter?

[bbodie52]

The overheated primary wire you mentioned earlier may have been caused by the Flamethrower II coil, which may complicate things a bit with your starter and ignition system modifications.

I have not seen the high-torque starter harness or a schematic, but it sounds like a second connector was created by simply splicing in a connector for the ignition connection (to the ignition coil circuit) from the starter solenoid trigger circuit (from the ignition switch). Doing so would apply 12V DC to both the starter solenoid AND to the ignition coil whenever the key was turned to START. This is essentially what is done internally in the stock solenoid (or in the suggested Ford solenoid), except that the solenoid taps off of the high current main battery terminal instead of tapping off of the low current wire from the ignition switch. (See the internal solenoid electrical connection illustration below).

In either case, the 12V DC connection that feeds the ignition coil is only a short-duration connection that remains only as long as the key is held in the START position. A standard coil has about 3 ohms of internal primary resistance, but the Flamethrower II coil provides a hotter spark by drawing more current from the 12V DC circuit by lowering the primary resistance from 3 ohms to only 0.6 ohms, so potentially the higher total current draw by both the solenoid actuation circuit and the low resistance Flamethrower II could cause problems with the starter switch START circuit wiring (more than 20 amps). For comparison, a 3 ohm standard coil would only draw 4 amps at 12 volts.

The wire gauge does impact the current carrying capacity of the circuit. The 12 Gauge ignition switch start circuit is a relatively high-current wire gauge, but the coil wire is only a thin 20 gauge with less current capacity. I don't know how much current the solenoid actuation circuit draws, but since the GM engineers designed that circuit with a 12 gauge wire it may be somewhat high.

With the Flamethrower II high performance coil (and its low internal resistance of 0.6 ohms) it is possible that you might encounter overheating of the 20 gauge primary circuits in the Corvair. This is true of both the bypass circuit that carries 12V DC directly to the coil, and the resistor wire circuit that reduces the voltage to approximately 7V DC. In both cases, the current carried by the thin 20 gauge wires would exceed that expected by the GM engineers, because the coil presents only 0.6 ohms of primary circuit resistance, instead of the standard 3 ohms. At 12V DC a 3 ohm coil draws approximately 4 amps, but the Flamethrower II coil will draw 20 amps. Even at 7V DC (from the resistor wire) this coil will draw approximately 11.7 amps, instead of the designed expectation of only 2.3 amps. This higher current draw of the Flamethrower II coil could cause the thin 20 gauge wire used in the Corvair primary circuit to overheat and melt the insulation. A solution would be to replace the 20 gauge wire with new 12 gauge wire. The thin resistor wire can be replaced by 12 gauge wire and an external resistor (sometimes seen in Corvair Spyders). The external coil resistor is shown below, as is an illustration depicting the Ford solenoid wiring in conjunction with an external primary resistor.





The following video demonstrates the internal electro-mechanical function of an automotive solenoid...



If you detect an overheating primary wire in your Corvair, or if you are concerned about the high current draw expected from the Pertronix Flamethrower II coil, you might want to consult with Pertronix technical support at the phone number I posted earlier. It is possible that the on/off switching nature of the ignition coil and distributor may reduce the effective current load on the primary wiring in the car. But leaving the ignition key on might draw continuous current that could overheat the wiring. The Pertronix system may not permit a continuous on condition with an engine that is not running, so this may not be a problem with the Pertronix ignition system coupled with the Flamethrower II coil, which is only designed to be used with the Pertronix ignition system and is not compatible with standard ignition points.

[Scott V]

Hey Scott,so the american Pi Starter comes with a wiring harness and the clarks starter does not? Is it basicaly the same starter but the A-pi one comes with a modifide harness that has provisions to be more "Plug and play" and work out the resistor bypass problem and the clarks starter does not?

i havent seen the clarks starter so i dont know how to answer.

i posted...............my starter didnt need a relay or ford starter solenoid or other stuff. the wires from the starter went right to the stock starter harness................i guess you can call that plug & play.

Do you have a scematic of the Harness? does the American pi starter only have 2 connections like the clarks or 3 like the stock starter?

a scematic of the harness? its 2 wires............just like it says in the instructions i posted. thats all i have. sorry.
the starter has 3 connections. i havent seen a clarks starter so i dont know.

-Scott V.