1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

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Grandpacorvair
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1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Grandpacorvair »

Hi guys..

Hope everyone is having a great holiday weekend..


Need to replace my plugs...having a misfire around 3000rpms..car has an older Pertronix I in it, hoping plugs will fix it...

In any case what type and manufacturer spark plug can I use. Did some reading but a bit confused....

Kerry
Kerry Borgne
1963 Spyder Convertible
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Scott V »

stock would be bosch w8a, 7502, 7902 or WR8AC+.
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by miniman82 »

From personal experience: 8 is way too cold, mine did nothing but foul out with 8's. I have much better luck with something in the 6 range, but YMMV. It depends a lot on the carb, and how accurately it's metering fuel.
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Grandpacorvair »

Hello again..

Appreciate the responses. Still need help in the way of plug number and recommend manufacturer. What plug has worked the best in a turbo. Bosch, NGK etc..I like the idea of a hotter plug as I have issues with the plugs holding up.

Thanks,

Kerry
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by miniman82 »

Try WR6AC. If you have suppression wires you can probably do without resistor plugs, in which case W6AC is what you want. If the ignition system is noisy you'll hear it through the radio, that's the reason for resistor plugs.
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Grandpacorvair
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Grandpacorvair »

Hi again,

Ok...problem... at least with the WR6AC, which I assume is a Bosch plug. It appears to be made of unobtainium! Online searches show it to be available only from sources in the UK, Germany or AU! Also not having any luck with an NGK equivalence.. I THINK the 3922 might be the same heat range but not sure...? I have NGKs in the car right now and they didn't hold up.
Kerry Borgne
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by bbodie52 »

Sparkplug Cross Reference Logo.jpg
Sparkplug Cross Reference Logo.jpg (25.63 KiB) Viewed 4237 times
:link: http://www.sparkplug-crossreference.com/
http://www.sparkplug-crossreference.com ... H_PN/WR6AC
BOSCH WR6AC - Alternative spark plugs:

Possible spark plugs for BOSCH WR6AC: Brisk NR14, Denso W22FSR, Denso IWF22, Eyquem R850, Magneti Marelli CW8NR

Denso W22FSR spark plug - NGK equivalent BR7HS (NGK B6HS, Bosch W7AC may be equivalent of AC 42FF)

Image
California Corvair Parts lists NOS NGK 46H Corvair spark plugs in stock for $8.95 (set of 6) (A bargain price???)
Availability: 594 items in stock
New set (6) Precision (NGK) spark plugs for 1960-69 Corvair engines. Part no. 46H
These are new old stock plugs designed for use in Corvair engines

:link: http://californiacorvairparts.com/produ ... product=68
eBay :link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CORVAIR-New-Set ... 0243157962
Image
California Corvairs wrote:These are new old stock (NOS) Precision spark plugs.
Designed specifically for use in Corvair engines. Copper core, 14mm x 1/2".
Manufactured in Japan by NGK under the name "Precision".
Individually wrapped.
We are listing these fine quality plugs at less than $1.00 each!
You can't get a better price on Corvair plugs anywhere.
Shipping is $6.50 (USA).
Clark's shows a hotter NGK B5HS (P/N: C1236A), standard NGK B6HS (P/N: C1236E) [Possibly AC 42FF equivalent] and a colder, extended tip P/N: C1236F

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... N&page=75A
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NGK B6HS

Details about NGK B6HS:Thread diameter: 14mm
Thread reach: 12.7mm
Seat type: flat Hex size: 21mm
Tip configuration: non projected
Construction: Standard construction
Terminal type: Removable


This website may prove to be helpful, although I have no idea concerning its accuracy.
:dontknow:
Sample from Spark Plug Cross Reference database...

Alternative spark plugs:

Possible spark plugs for NGK B6HS:AC Delco 42F AC Delco 425FAC Delco 46F AC Delco 43F AC Delco M43FFAC Delco 44F AC Delco 425Z AC Delco 42FF AC Delco R44FAccel 156Autolite 414Autolite XS4093Autolite 424 Autolite 413Autolite 4093Autolite 2655Autolite 425 Beck Arnley 176-5031Beru Z 57Beru 14Z-6A2 Beru D175/14 Beru Z 85 Beru 14-XAU Beru 14-7A Beru 190/14Z Beru Z 85Beru Z 57 Beru 14-7AU Beru 175/14 Bosch W7ABosch W7AC Bosch W175Z1Bosch W8AC Bosch W7AOBosch W6AC Bosch W175T1 Bosch W7AP Bosch W7A0 Bosch stk 7502Bosch stk 7596Brisk N17C Brisk N15 Brisk N17 Carlton 71050Carlton C7SChampion L10S Champion L85C Champion OE037 Champion OE096 Champion L86 Champion L82Champion L7Champion L10 Champion L7J Champion OE037/T10Champion L85 Champion L87C Champion L9J Champion L86CC Champion RL86C Champion L86CChampion L82C Champion OE096/T10Champion stk 811Champion stk 306Champion stk 830Citroen AM212207ACitroen 95605398Daihatsu 9004851021000 Daihatsu 90048-51022-000 Denso TR20Denso W16FS-UDenso 3073 Denso W20FS-UDenso IWF22 Denso W20FSUDenso W20FSDenso 6054 Denso stk 3073Denso stk 3034Enker F75CEyquem 755 MOTO Eyquem 75M Eyquem 700 MOTO Eyquem 755 Eyquem 755M Eyquem 700 Eyquem 775X Eyquem 70M Fuji 065-01400-60Fuji 065-01400-31General Motors 5613658General Motors 5613525General Motors 5612394General Motors 5612125General Motors 5613229Gutbrod 000.80.071Honda 98076-56710Honda 98076-56724 Honda 98076-56711 Honda 98076-56740Honda 98076-56741 Iskra F75S Iskra F70 Isolator 7AIsolator M14-175Isolator M14175KLG F75 Kubota 13451-6771-6Kubota 13582-6771-1Lodge HN Lodge H Magneti Marelli F7CN Magneti Marelli CWC6NJ Magneti Marelli FC7N Magneti Marelli CW67NJ Magneti Marelli CW6NJ Magneti Marelli CWC67NJ Magneti Marelli CW7NJ Magneti Marelli CWC7NJ Magneti Marelli CW225A Magneti Marelli CW6N Magneti Marelli CW7N Marchal Valeo 35BMarchal Valeo 35/36RMarchal Valeo 35PMarchal Valeo 35 / 36DMarchal Valeo 35Marchal Valeo 35 / 36RMarchal Valeo 35/36PMarchal Valeo 35MMarchal Valeo 35 / 36PMarchal Valeo 35/36DMazda 0190 18 110 Mercruiser 33-306 Mercruiser 33-82370M1 Mercruiser 33-82370M Mighty M4E4Mitsubishi MS 851 133 Motorcraft AE3 Motorcraft AE3X Motorcraft AES4C Motorcraft AE3C Motorcraft AV3CUMotorcraft stk 41Napa X531NGK stk 7534OMC 502177PAL (Brisk) 14-8PAL (Brisk) N7PAL (Brisk) N17CPrestolite 14E3Prestolite 1,40E+004Renault 77 01 366 533Splitfire SF409CSubaru 820541810Suzuki 09482-00095Tacti V91103073Torch E7CUnipart GSP550 Unipart GSP2049 Valley Forge 134Yamaha 90890-78094Yamaha 94701-00039Yamaha 94702003910Yamaha 94701 00039 Yamaha 94700-00039Yamaha 94702-00039Yamaha 94703-00039Yanmar 160110-78011

Nostalgia...
=============================================================================================

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AC 44FF.jpg
I can't believe I came across 2 NOS sets of old Champion spark plugs, wrapped in cosmoline too!

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Brad Bodie
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by miniman82 »

Go for the B6HS. I run something very similar in my 1915cc turbo/EFI Beetle (BPR6HS), it's the perfect heat range in that app.
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Grandpacorvair
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Grandpacorvair »

Wow, talk about information overload!

Ok...a bit of an update and a plea for suggestions. Turns out the last time I changed the plugs I used the NGK B6HS so my theory/hopes for a higher heat range helping my problem has gone up in...smoke?

A bit of background. I have been chasing this issue on and off for several years. The car will hesitate/buck significantly at around 3000rpms and up under load. Under boost it gets even worse. As the plugs 'age' the problem gets much worse. Replacing the plugs will 'cure' the issue for a while. (maybe 200 to 300 miles.) when it starts over again. The plugs look just fine, not fouled that I can see.

I have replaced the spark plug wires (used silicon, 8mm, wires), the coil (Pertronix flame thrower (car has a Pertronix I)), the distributor cap and rotor and of course the plugs. There is no resistor wire on the lead to the coil and voltage is @ 12vdc. The carb was rebuilt by Grant Wolf. Air filter is new. No vacuum leaks that I can find. Car has an electric fuel pump that delivers the correct pressure.

I've checked compression and all is well....

Each time, replacing the plugs resolves the problem...temporarily.

The Pertronix I is an older one, circa 1997 or so..and is the only thing I can think of that I haven't tried...

Any thoughts certainly appreciated!

Kerry
Kerry Borgne
1963 Spyder Convertible
Birmingham, Michigan
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by miniman82 »

Sure the coil isn't overheating? Is the carb(s) tuned right?
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by bbodie52 »

:think: If the Pertronix I unit is in question, why not install the original points/condenser configuration and reinstate the resistor (to keep the points alive and not pitting/burning with excessive operating voltage) to see if that gets you better performance. The work and cost required to test the operation in the original factory ignition system configuration would prove the questionable Pertronix I one way or the other. This problem sounds like you have been struggling with it for a long time, and so far replacement of significant components has not resulted in a solution presenting itself. You have no effective way to test the operation of the Pertronix I except to take it out of the system and see what result that produces. Also confirm the proper operation of the vacuum and centrifugal advance so that you absolutely are certain that everything in the ignition system is functioning correctly. A methodical, step by step process of elimination of each major subsystem as a suspected cause should ultimately reveal the cause of your grief. You have already addressed the carburetor and fuel pump, cylinder compression, plug wires and plugs -- it seems that the electronic ignition module and possibly the associated coil is the only area left as a suspect. Perhaps changing that component out will reveal something. :pray: :dontknow: :fingerscrossed:
Grandpacorvair wrote:I have replaced the spark plug wires (used silicon, 8mm, wires), the coil (Pertronix flame thrower (car has a Pertronix I))
It is a little confusing, but if you look carefully at the three pages of the clark's Corvair Parts catalong below, you may have an inappropriate ignition combination:

1. Pertronix Flame Thrower II Coil -- #5, #6, #7 WILL NOT WORK WITH IGNITOR (C6790) OR ELECTRONIC IGNITION but can be used with stock points.

2. It sounds like you have a Pertronix Flame Thrower coil, but you are using it in conjunction with the IGNITOR I (C6790). Clark's says they will not work properly together, if I am reading this correctly! CATALOG SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT FLAMETHROWER II COIL WILL NOT WORK WITH C2851 (CORVAIR CRANE LED ELECTRONIC IGNITION) OR C6790 (MAGNETIC IGNITOR). It further states that you MUST use an IGNITOR II with a FLAMETHROWER II COIL. I am not clear on the Flamethrower coil. Is your coil a Flamerthrower or Flamethrower II coil? Whatever coil you have, will it work in conjunction with the older Pertronix I ignition? I'm not clear on this, but you may be running a combination that will not function properly together. It does say that the IGNITOR can be used with the Crane "Fire Ball" coil, but not with the FLAME THROWER II coils.

3. It also says that the IGNITOR ignition system can be damaged if the key is left on without the engine running. Could this have occurred on you car? Catalog also mentions that since 1991 they were manufactured to be more resistant to high heat. Could your unit be an older unit that was more sensitive to heat?

When you read all of this background information, it puts your Pertronix I and coil combination very much in question. I would suggest reverting (at least temporarily) back to the standard points and condenser, with resistor, and see what the results are.

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=74
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:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=75
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:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... N&page=75A
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FROM CORVAIR UNDERGROUND...
Ignition Coils.jpg
Brad Bodie
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Grandpacorvair »

Yeah, I've been chasing this dog across the years...

One more fact, the Flame Thrower coil is new. The problem has persisted through three coils. The first was replaced because of very low output with one supplied by my mechanic. The Flamethrower was installed last Summer along with the NGK plugs in hopes higher voltage spark would help.

I do have a question, what is the purpose of using extended tip plugs?

Kerry
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by bbodie52 »

There are some topics that just seem to breed debate and controversy... electric vs. mechanical fuel pump, spark plug choices, etc. It is my undertanding that Extended Tip spark plugs are supposed to run like a variable heat range plug -- hotter at low RPM, and cooler at high RPM. I used to run Champion UL-15Y plugs in all my family Corvairs with no problem. I believe this was an extended tip design. Some people like 'em and some don't. Champion advertised that their UL-15Y extended tip plug was specifically engineered for the Corvair. The Champion UL-15Y can generally no longer be found, and Champion recommends their RL87YC copper core plug.

SPARK PLUG INTERCHANGE TABLE
150/180 HP Turbocharged Engine

AC ORIGINAL: AC 44FF
AC CURRENT: AC 44F One thread shorter in length)
CHAMPION: L87Y (RL87YC)
NGK: B6HS
BOSCH: W7AC
DENSO: W16FS-U
MOTORCRAFT: AE3
AUTOLITE: 2656
SOURCE: Performance Corvairs, How to Hotrod the Corvair Engine and Chassis, by Seth Emerson and Bill Fisher, Chapter 4, Page 33
martyscarr wrote:Bosch 7502 (old number W8AC) is a good, reliable plug for stock Corvairs. You might even have some laying around being a former VW guy

NGK B6HS is another good plug. The OEM plugs, AC 44F are difficult to find but work well.

What not to use? In the past there were some reports of owners having problems with extended tip plugs, especially the Autolite brand. This was quite a few years ago.... In the more recent past, some have reported problems with Bosch Platinums not working well. I've never tried either of these plugs, just some stories I've read over the years.
Back to ignition coils...

The fact that you state your Flamethrower coil was a recent addition... does that mean it is a Flamethrower II? Clark's no longer lists a Flamethrower coil... only a Flamethrower II in three flavors. The Clark's catalog also seems to indicate that the Flamethrower II coil WILL ONLY WORK WITH POINTS OR WITH A PERTRONIX II ELECTRONIC IGNITION, and that the Flamethrower II will not function properly with the earlier Pertronix ignition or other electonic ignitions. So if your coil is a Flamethrower II design, the combination you have on your Corvair is very much in question. Since the Flamethrower II is shown in the catalog to work properly with ignition points, my suggestion still stands. Reinstall the points and condenser, check the centrifugal and vacuum advance for proper and smooth operation, and check the condition of the breaker plate and ignition points to coil wire. Also reconnect your coil circuit resistor so you don't burn your points using a full 12VDC. Make sure the connection to the starter solenoid is still intact, so that the coil receives a full 12VDC while the engine is cranking. Then see how your Corvair runs, minus the old Pertronix ignition unit.

NOTE: My information seems to indicate that installation of the Pertronix I unit also replaces the distributor breaker plate with its own mounting plate. If you revert back to standard points and condenser, you will also need the original breaker (points) plate, wire, screws, etc. If you obtain these parts from another used distributor, be sure to retain the original centrifugal advance weights and springs and pressure retard mechanism. This ignition timing mechanism is critical and unique to the turbocharged engine.

link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=75
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:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=77
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Grandpacorvair »

Hello again,

Yup, this is the correct coil per Pertronix. It didn't come from Clarks but rather off Amazon after an email exchange with Pertornix.

Interesting side bit. I replaced the plugs yesterday with NGK B6HS this time. I had the same flavor plug but it was a resistor type. Since I have resistor wires it seemed a bit redundant (Probably won't make a difference but it made me feel better...if briefly). Once again the car runs great through the full RPM range both under normal load and boost.

Anyway in replacing the plugs I ran into an issue I had forgotten about. about 4 of the plugs didn't seem to torque right. Seemed like they kept turning. I remember now that I had run into this last time and simply tightened them as far as I felt comfortable, fearing that I was going to strip the heads! Being a little smarter this year (marginally) I took a look at the plugs of the involved cylinders and noticed carbon on the threads. I decided to buy a spark plug thread chaser and have a go. It was more than a bit nerve racking as I was sure I was going to strip out the holes as I wasn't sure how far in to turn the tool! (checked each hole be sure there wasn't a piston at the top.) In the end it took several turns to get the threads cleared and now I can properly torque the plugs. Will that make a difference in my problem? Naa....but one can hope.

Thankfully there was no evidence of burnt spark plug seats caused by the improperly seated plugs.

Also you are correct, installation of the Pertronix I requires removal of the points plate which will make reinstalling the points problematic at best. The modification to the distributor was done before I owned the car, so no plate in hand.

Kerry
Kerry Borgne
1963 Spyder Convertible
Birmingham, Michigan
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by bbodie52 »

If you suspect a possible problem with your Pertronix unit, here are some prices from Clark's and from Corvair Underground for various distributor components or for a basic rebuilt distributor to return your car to the original ignition points. It does look like it would coast you $50-$100 to return your distributor to a stock configuration.

Part number C7825: HIGH PERFORMANCE POINT PLATE-62-69** ** THIS IS NOW A REBUILT UNIT **

NOTICE: Price includes core value: $15.00. You will be issued a refund of $15.00 when you return the used part.

Weight: 0 lbs 8 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 77(9)
Price: $ 45.80



Part number C1722E: "BEST" TUNE-UP KIT-62-69 INCL: DIST CAP (BRASS CONTACTS)/VENTED POINTS/ROTOR/CONDENSR

Weight: 1 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 75
Price: $ 61.50



Part number C1029: SCREW-IGNITION POINT

Weight: 0 lbs 1 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 75,77(4),77(6),183
Price: $ 0.70


:link: http://www.corvairunderground.com/dist2.htm
Corvair Underground wrote:OVERHAULED, REBUILT DISTRIBUTOR -BASIC - same as a Basic Minus but a Corvair Underground rebuilt points plate is also included* $89.95 plus core charges for 110, turbos and 140's.
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Re: 1963 Turbo ( stock) Spark Plugs

Post by Grandpacorvair »

How's this for reviving an old(er) thread?

But since I started it, maybe I can get away with it...;)

I thought I should update this as it appears the problem with plugs failing too soon has been resolved and I have 3 plus years of proof.

I have just replaced my three year old NGK B6HS plugs. They didn't fail but the miles are adding up and it's time. So what did I do to fix my problem? I stayed with my Pertronix I ignition but switched to a Crane Fireball coil (Clarks# C8391) that is specific for the Pertronix I. This coil is rated at 45,000 volts! Since the change there has been no return of the 3,000rpm surging that progresses to the point where the car is not fun to drive within 300-500 miles of installing new plugs of ANY heritage! I'm also using the NGK B6HS (non-resistor) plugs. Hopefully my luck will continue with the new plugs too!

While this doesn't address WHY the car would go through plugs so fast, it, at least, resolves it.
Kerry Borgne
1963 Spyder Convertible
Birmingham, Michigan
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