Prep for paint, Convertible.

[Gasman63]

I like to gather info way in advance. Guessing I will have the car painted next year. I will do as much as I can to get it ready, i e removing emblems and such. Im not a painter and sanding drives me nuts so I will pay to have the job done but if I can save a buck...

I was talking to a neighbor who has a body shop. He says removing the windshield is the way to do it right. My windshield is original so this worries me.

Is he correct? Best to remove windshield so sanding, priming, paint and clear coats are under the rubber. Any rust can be fixed. My car doesnt really have much rust being a CA car. Would i need a new seal? Does the chrome on the rubber come off or do I have to by new chrome strips for the new rubber seal? Or is it ok to paint up to the windshield and not remove it? I want to do this once so whatever is best or correct...

Is this something I can do or best to pay someone to remove it if it has to be done?

Thanks

[Frank DuVal]

Of course removing the windshield gets the body in the same shape it was when the car was painted by GM. But, it comes with GREAT risk! Early windshields are not cheap these days, and getting rarer.

In my collision shop I had some plastic cord that one can put under the rubber to lift it off the body without removing the glass. Not a perfect solution, but sure beats having to buy new glass.

OK, Google has no hits on the vinyl cord, but did get a 3M product that might work:

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b5005036357/

[Gasman63]

Thanks for the link Frank. I do like this idea a lot more than pulling the glass if it can be stuffed under the lip of the rubber. It could be pretty stiff. But thats a big help. This is why I like to ask. Thanks again.

Im open to any other pointer someone might have when it comes to preparing a car for paint that I can do.

[Dennis66]

As another EM convertible owner on the verge of painting, I'm following. I too am leery of disturbing the windshield rubber. Fortunately for us, we only have ot deal with the bottom. I will say this in dealing with "old rubber": Heat is your friend. For this, a heat gun. In dealing with old rubber hoses, I use my propene torch (carefully, and not around fuel lines).

[Gasman63]

Good point Dennis.
I did recently learn about heat guns and old rubber as i was trying to remove and reuse the grommet that the wire harness goes through from under the dash to the trunk. That sucker felt like hard plastic. I was replacing the wires so i cut the old out, fought and fought that grommet until i put a few seconds with a heat gun on it. That grommet felt like new rubber and came right out. As soon as it cooled it was like hard plastic again. But i learned about old hard rubber.

Thanks for the comment and good luck on your painting. Be sure to post any tricks you learn.

[66vairguy]

Good comments. I'll add there is a BIG difference between EM and LM glass mounting.

First ---- there is always a risk of breaking the glass when you remove or install it. Done correctly the risk is low, but exists!

The EM used rubber gaskets to hold in the glass AND the windshield has the deep turned corners that makes removal and install more difficult vs. flat glass. Add to that glass frames that were less than precise and it takes some knowledge to do it correctly. Sadly it is almost a lost art. So finding a good shop is tough, and doing it yourself can result in broken glass. IF the windshield frame has no corrosion, AND the glass rubber gasket is in good shape (no cracks or splits) you might want to leave it in for painting.

The LM used what I cal "glue in glass". A butyl adhesive bead holds the glass to the windshield frame and stainless trim snaps on to cover the gap. UNLESS the glass was installed in the last couple decades the butyl adheasive has dried out and the seal is letting water up under the butyl AND YOU HAVE RUST. You must remove the glass and and paint the frame to eliminate continuing corrosion.

I have removed "glue in" windshields and back windows in four cars I've done. There is ALWAYS CORROSION!!!! Most of the 60's GM car DID NOT galvanize the glass frame. The old butyl and paint eventually fails and the metal frame rusts. The requires sand blasting, the application modern sealer primer, then application of the body paint. New sealer and glass goes in AFTER the paint cures!

[Frank DuVal]

You didn't mention it, but are the ends of the convertible belt molding already broken off? A very common failure. Anyway, with the belt trim removed you can lower the top slightly to cover it very well so paint does not get on it. Cover it VERY well! Paint spray goes everywhere. I've even hung masking paper from the rockers to the floor of the booth. Of course a downdraft booth negates that working....

And if you decide to just remove the top as a whole, the lag screws on the side trim stick are SHORTER than the lag screws through the long rear trim stick. If you put a long lag screw through the side trim sticks you will be repairing the new hole in the side of your freshly painted car.... Pay attention when you remove these lag screws.

[Gasman63]

I dont know what part is called the belt molding. And I was thinking painting could be done with the top down not removed. More to learn

[66vairguy]

I dont know what part is called the belt molding. And I was thinking painting could be done with the top down not removed. More to learn

Frank makes an important point about those tack strip lag bolts.

On my LM convertible I removed the old poorly installed top AND then the folding frame mechanism PIECE BY PIECE. I WOULD NEVER ATTEMPT TO REMOVE A TOP AND FRAME AS ONE UNIT! I have read that folks have done it, but it is heavy and the joints were NOT designed to support a lot of weight with the frame unbolted from the rear. Just my

As Frank said - masking is very important, I would leave it up to the painter to determine if TOP UP OR DOWN is best for masking.

BEWARE of trying to do things to save money. If there are issues then YOU will be blamed by the painter. Always have a talk with the painter to agree on what you do vs. what he does and insist on his inspection to O.K. your work BEFORE he paints. Paint work is expensive and you don't want to spend a lot of money only to end up with a mediocre paint job.

[Frank DuVal]

I have several complete frames for tops both early and late. Yes, they are heavy, but they come out as one assembly. The top does add weight. At least one of the assemblies still has the rear tack strips still hanging from it. Not a one person lift and remove! It has to come up a long way to clear the body of the car.

I'm not sure what you mean by the joints aren't designed to support weight when not bolted to the car. They certainly were supporting their own weight before they were installed in the car. The assembly line did not install them one piece at a time, Wait, that was a Johnny Cash song...

[Frank DuVal]

Belt molding is more correctly the molding separating the top from the bottom, like shirt from pants.

Here I used the term for that stainless steel molding separating the convertible top from the body.

Sometime the term is used for moldings separating the greenhouse (glass area) from the body/doors. On early Corvairs it is also used for the moldings separating the hood/trunk/flat areas from the lower body on some models, not Monzas.

[Gasman63]

I think I will see what the painter wants to do about the top. Up or down or remove. And i think i understand what your saying frank... The trim that covers where the top is connected to the car in the rear by the hood/rear? As far as broken, I dont know that anything is broke.

My wife tells me i can not have the neighbor paint the car. She said if i have a problem with the job he does then we dont need bad blood/feelings happening on the block as we all get together fine right now, but... I know she is right.

At this time Im thinking i eill be removing any emblems, trim, door handles and bumpers. Then leave the rest to the pros. Im scared to ask what a paint job costs. Ive never had a car painted. But i guess it depends on what is found when the sanding and priming is done as the body on my Vair has had some work done. I know a bit of putty is involved in a couple places and id like to get the antenna hole welded up/filled.

[Dennis66]

Ask around on the paint job. I just asked last week at my first attendance of a local Corvair club. Nobody seemed to have any suggestions on either top replacement or painting. Pobably go to a car show or two and ask folks.
When I had my Subaru Baja painted a couple of years ago, I used an "old school, one man" place that a couple f friends recommended. He did a great job (base coat / clear coat) and it came to around 3K. I stripped th ecar od all trim myself before taking it to him. It took him about 5 weeks because of his workload and pollen season. What's worth having...
I see no reason to remove a top or have it down for painting an EM convertible (other than for a complete restoration or an anal color change). Removing the SS trim strip that goes around the back of th etop should be sufficient. FWIW, I pulled mine out and washed it yesterday (it was fiflthy from the transport trip up) and found my windshield rubber to still be nice and pliable.

[Gasman63]

Thanks for tossing out a cost Dennis. I understand different areas, shops and what needs done can make a big difference in price. Including paint and style but its good to hear what others have paid. My neighbor said 6k to start until he finds what might be hiding underneath.

Anyone else want to quote what they paid or heard of for paint?

[Frank DuVal]

I was saying that removing the belt trim* and making behind the body next to the top will be just about as good as removing the whole top assembly and a lot less work. When I painted them (removing the top assembly was when I was parting out a car) that is what I did, and un-cliping (un-fastening? just release the handles holding the top bow to the windshield header) the top bow let the fabric sag at the rear gives more room to put in masking paper/tape.

Not discussed yet. If you are planning on replacing the fuzzies (the what? the glass rub strips that are fuzzy on Corvairs), take them off before paint and install new ones after paint. If in good shape and they don't want to come off (those clips can be problematic and hurt the fuzzie on removal) then leave them and they will tape them as best they can. I suggest new ones. Oh, no, more expense!


*So the end of the trim at the quarter window was a separate piece welded onto the L shaped piece at the molding factory. They have been breaking off since the late 60s. Several of the snaps have Phillips screws in them, they help hold the molding in place. Remove them first. And there is a Phillips screw inboard of the end piece at the quarter glass. After screws removed, it "slides" off the pichweld. OK, might need the wood block/hammer gentle persuasion. Hammer towards the top, not down to body.

I did a lot of painting of cars for neighbors before I opened a shop. Sure, made mistakes! Has he been doing it for several years or just starting? i.e. have you seen his work and are OK with the level of success?

[66vairguy]

Thanks for tossing out a cost Dennis. I understand different areas, shops and what needs done can make a big difference in price. Including paint and style but its good to hear what others have paid. My neighbor said 6k to start until he finds what might be hiding underneath.

Anyone else want to quote what they paid or heard of for paint?

Great comments by Dennis66. WOW - $6K is about what a GOOD shop would charge for a decent (not show quality) paint job if some minor body work was required (little dents). While your wife is WISE to suggest NOT using a neighbor, I assume he has a professional paint shop for that kind of estimate. While a car can be painted without a booth, it rarely is as good as using a professional booth.

BEWARE of low bids. DO ASK AROUND and go look at others cars. I've heard far more stories of BAD or problem paint jobs vs. good ones.

I talked to one fellow who did top notch collision repair paint. I asked him why he didn't do "old" cars and he said "To guarantee a job as good as I do on a new car I would have to go down to bare metal, repair corrosion and that costs a lot more than repairing/painting a new car. Also when someone pays what I would charge ($8K and up) they expect a PERFECT paint job!! There is no such thing and fixing all the little issues ends up a money looser for me. Insurance work is easier, pays well, customers area happy.

I paint my own cars (I'm an amateur) and body prep is costly as it is time consuming if there are a parking lot dents and "somebody sat on the trunk lid", or leaned against the car wavy panel stuff. New shiny paint will show all body flaws. If you plan on keeping the car for years, then decades old paint on the car should be removed to bare metal. If you plan to sell the car in a year or so, then the painter can block out old paint and cover it, BUT don't expect it to last as long. I've seen cars painted that looked great for a year, but after a few years you see cracking, peeling, bubbles due to the old foundation failing under new paint.

Do the door frames need painting (yes if color change)?? Next to impossible to do them well unless the doors are removed.

Keep in mind ---- it comes down if you want - a good driver paint job, or a show paint job. Still even a "driver" paint job should look presentable. Your neighbor is correct about leaving the price open until he finds what is "under" the old paint.

Oh - paint regulations have changed MANY times of the last two decades. New cars use a water based color coat sealed with a urethane clear coat and if you want to keep that 60's blue metallic look water based paints DO NOT WORK. Now the EPA has approved new solvent base paint for the hobby car crowd that will give the proper metallic look even with a urethane clear coat (I have done a few of my own cars). NOTE none of the OEM paint companies bother with this "solvent" base coat/clear coat paint. Last I looked it ALL came in from off shore companies. Quality is good, but it is EXPENSIVE. Now with import tariffs even more so.

NEVER use a shop that will give a great price if you let them "WORK IT IN BETWEEN INSURANCE JOBS". I have NEVER heard anybody say this works out. Car is in shop for years before it is done, parts go missing, or finally the owner gets tired and pick up half done car only to pay a lot more for another shop to do it right.

Sorry if this is information overload, yet I probably have forgotten something.

Considering the expense you should do your homework. Good luck.