Seeking Lifter and Cam Advice

[pgvair]

I'm going to build an engine for my 62 PG wagon. I plan to use an '64 FC block and probably 110 heads with NOS GM cylinder/piston units. I have some NOS lifters and an NOS "304" cam, and would like advice about them.

The lifters I have are as follows:

GM 5232450 with HL-54 on the box. The dimple depth is about 11/32" deep. I only have 10 of these.

GM 5232810 with HL-54 on the box. The dimple depth is about 9/32" deep. I only have 2 of these.

Can I use the 450 & 810 lifters to make a full set or since the 810 lifter dimples aren't as deep, should I not mix them?

A picture of these lifters is attached. Left to right is a stock lifter, an 810 lifter and an 450 lifter.

Does anyone have experience with lifters from "The Source"? I bought a set of these lifters in 2008. The dimple depth is about 11/32" deep. Are they good for a street engine? Is it needed to adjust them different from the GM lifters? They look just like the GM 450 and 810 lifters, and have about 11/32" dimple depth, same as the GM 450 lifter.

Any thoughts about the 304 cam? From what I've read in Seth's book and other places this is a good street cam, and I understand is a GM replacement for the 889 cam.

Thanks,
Wade

[texas yenko dude 199]

The lifters from The Source are excellent and all I use. On the street and in YS-199 on the race track.

[Vairone]

You can use the 450 & 810 lifters to make a full set. If you are checking your pushrod geometry you may need shorter pushrods with the 810 lifters.

The 450 & 810 GM lifters and the lifters from The Source are excellent.

[jimbrandberg]

Since your name is pgvair I have to wonder if you're using a 304 cam with a PG. If so I wonder if you given any thought to the cam timing.

[pgvair]

Jim,

My username is pgvair because I live in Prince George, VA. But yes as I mentioned, the engine is for a wagon with a PG. From what I read the 304 cam is a replacement for the 889 cam, so I thought the stock cam timing would be okay. If not, please advise.

Wade

[jimbrandberg]

The 889 cam was in 95 HP engines with about a 104 degree Intake centerline. They also used it in 140 PG engines with about a 108 degree centerline.
The 304 cam was used in turbo engines with manual transmissions. I would guess it's usually at about a 108 Intake centerline. I would say it's more of a replacement for the 891 cam.
The 891 cam was used in both Manual and PG 110 HP engines at about a 108 degree Intake centerline. So your 304 is probably okay there although advanced a few degrees to 106 or 104 will have the peak torque at a lower RPM, which is desirable for everyday driving with a PG. It seems like when I check cams a lot of them have the cam card showing 108 but they're actually at more like 106.
If you've already got the cam gear installed you can't do much about it. I always check cam timing when assembling an engine, I've found some aftermarket cams that were wonky.
Hopefully some others will relate their experiences.

[66vairguy]

Good comments by Jim B.

I always "degree" a cam in the block on a new rebuild to check timing As Jim mentioned you may find a couple degrees "off" from the cam card timing. Yes getting things "just right" is nice, but not a serious problem at one or two degrees.

The "304" cam was the default replacement for the 110HP and 140HP engines. It is called the "turbo cam" because it was developed for the turbocharged engine. It has "friendlier" lobe lift and drop ramps and a little less lift. It is quieter and easier on the valves and seats per GM documents Bob Helt researched. The only downside of the "304" is a little less HP at higher RPM in the 140HP engine as documented by Bob Helt.

Since you have a PG car, the engine most likely will never exceed about 4,500 RPM so the "304" is a good "all around" choice for you IMHO. Others are free to disagree.

[joelsplace]

Matt had trouble with some NOS lifters that had gummed up oil in them from age. You may want to disassemble and clean them.

[pgvair]

Thanks to all that have replied. I got mixed up on my cam numbers, so 304 is replacement for the 891, not the 889 as I thought.

I have not built the engine yet, so I'm trying to figure out what I have on hand that will work and what I'll need to buy.

Wade

[caraholic4life]

IF I were building an engine for any of my air cooled Corvair's these days, I would have a tendency to use a set of 95HP heads.

It is my understanding that the 95 heads would work better with today's Ethanol infected fuels which might reduce spark knock/pinging more so than the 110 heads. IF I am misguided in this thought, Please correct me.

[66vairguy]

IF I were building an engine for any of my air cooled Corvair's these days, I would have a tendency to use a set of 95HP heads.

It is my understanding that the 95 heads would work better with today's Ethanol infected fuels which might reduce spark knock/pinging more so than the 110 heads. IF I am misguided in this thought, Please correct me.

Well it depends ------ octane rating vary a little from state to state. In the old days you had only RON octane numbers. Today in the U.S.A (and other countries) pump numbers are an average of RON + MON / 2 and are lower then just RON for the same detonation resistance. California 10% ethanol "PREMIUM" has a RON + MON / 2 octane of 91. This is about the same as 1966 octane rating of 97 RON octane. Not bad. I have a 140HP with A/C and no pinging issues, even on a hot day in Calif. The Corvair, compared to other high compression engines of the 1960's, "high compression" 110/140HP of 9 to 1 is modest. It is thought 10 to 1 is the practical limit for today's PREMIUM for older NON-COMPUTER CONTROLLED engines.

I have read about folks claiming they run "REGULAR" 87 octane in a 110HP or140HP and say it is fine, no knocking (not something I would do). As for ethanol --- it is actually an octane booster in spite of any other issues it has. Tests show as long as you stay below about 12% ethanol, then old engines are fine. When the "corn mafia" was trying to get Congress to up it to 15% it was a serious problem for old car folks, but so far that has not happened. Now that China will probably tariff our farm products the "corn mafia" will no doubt try to jamb 15% ethanol into our gasoline to make money. All this is in the business news.

Be prepared to write your congressman AGAINST raising ethanol to 15% in gasoline!!!!

[jimbrandberg]

Does the cam have the gear installed?

[jjohnsonjo]

Beware of a 304 cam that has been sitting around for a long time. Check it closely for straightness. I ended up buying a Clarks 304 repro for mine because of this concern. Some say they GM line assemblers wouldn't use these and they ended up in the spare parts supply line. Others say they were not stored properly and that caused the problem. Either way check it, I would also install with nothing else in the case halfs and make certain it turns freely.

[66vairguy]

Beware of a 304 cam that has been sitting around for a long time. Check it closely for straightness. I ended up buying a Clarks 304 repro for mine because of this concern. Some say they GM line assemblers wouldn't use these and they ended up in the spare parts supply line. Others say they were not stored properly and that caused the problem. Either way check it, I would also install with nothing else in the case halfs and make certain it turns freely.

Good suggestion. Unfortunately a "bent" cam is more common that one would think. I always check a new cam in "V" blocks with a good dial gauge to make sure it is not bent. I had one machine shop bend an Isky cam trying to install a timing gear. They took it to Isky who straightened it!!! The Isky guy said sometimes cams get bent by poor storage or during shipping and he said they straighten them, no problem.

I'll add that now I use Jeff at Califronia Corvair to install cam gears. He has a heating plate so the gear stays HOT while the cam is installed.

[66vairguy]

Either way check it, I would also install with nothing else in the case halfs and make certain it turns freely.

I also Plasti-gauge the block cam journals with only the cam in the block. Usually O.K., but once in a while you find one that is worn beyond spec. No fix at this time. I know of a few folks with a number of spares blocks. As long as spares are available I doubt anybody will ever make a fix for worn out engine block cam journals.

[pgvair]

Thanks again for the advice. The gear is not on the cam. I'll install it in the block and check clearance with plastigauge as recommended.

Wade