Fast XR700 E-Ignition Questions

[66vairguy]

'63 Spyders also used the external ballast resistor. I think that the '62 and '3 Spyders used a "hotter" coil and my guess is that a different resistance value was needed with this coil and so it was easier to just use the external resistor. I was probably lees confusing on the assembly line also.

Yes it was a hotter coil and it tended to result in shorter points life. GM/Deco developed a better coil that worked with the standard 1.8 ohm ballast. This coil (#1115202) was also used on the 140HP engines. Years ago a few Corvair guys tested different coils for maximum spark gap and the 140HP/turbo coil performed better than the so-called HOT coils from Pertronix and other "HOT" coil companies. The #1115202 is unobtainable now, obsolete. I've heard a company makes a reproductions for Corvette engines - not sure if this is true.

That 62-3 turbo ballast and coil was also used on the Hi output SBC engine in the Corvette and Chevy issued a technical bulletin #557 to the dealers to change the ballast from 0.3 ohm to 1.8 ohm. Customers were complaining the engines would not stay in tune due to the short points life. Frankly the SBC engine was built for competition, but to qualify the engine Chevy had to sell it to anyone. It was a lousy daily street engine. The change back to a 1.8 ohm ballast solved the points problem (for street use), but of course the engines lost high RPM power due to lower coil output at high RPM. In a turbo engine boost increases air resistance across the spark plug gap and a higher voltage is needed at maximum boost.

Oddly the Corvair was NEVER mentioned in the dealer bulletin even though the turbo had the same ballast and coil as the Corvette Hi-Po enigne.

[2LZ]

To answer your question, the XR-700 with the 0226 suffix is the only one that will work with the GM 6 cylinder. I have called Fasts help line and ordered the correct bracket for a kit I bought used.
I like them because I have been using them for almost 30 years with zero failures.
Try Ebay, they show up occasionally. Also I think Clarks carries them.

Which kit did you order used? If the correct bracket is available, this could be the way to go.

[Monzaguy]

I got the XR700 from Clarks a couple years ago which came with the correct parts. I would suggest calling them first to make sure they have them in stock.

[dcmarciano]

I found the resistance wire in the main engine compartment plug. I will depin it and pin in a fresh wire. Hopefully I can find the right terminals on Amazon or Clark's. Oddly, I only see 8-9 volts coming out of the starter solenoid posts when in start position. I'll trace back to the ignition switch to find the voltage drop.

[2LZ]

Ok....has anyone had any experience with the Ignitor I or II from Clarks? See the link please.
https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... ow_page=74

Or again, has anyone used one of these with any luck? I have yet to see the condition of my distributor shaft/bearings but I like to leave options open.
https://californiacorvairparts.com/elec ... black.html

[Frank DuVal]

https://bid.grindstaffauctions.com/ui/a ... 9/14856994

You may already know this, but for others, the procedure for measuring small resistances is to first touch the probes together to see what their resistance is, then subtract that number from the measufred resistance of the tested object (object under test OUT in lab work). i.e. touch leads of a DMM and get .8 when you test an object and it reads 1.8 you know the resistance of the object is 1 ohm.

Or buy a several hundred dollar low resistance meter that has four leads (to cancel out the lead resistance). No, I'm too cheap!

[66vairguy]

I found the resistance wire in the main engine compartment plug. I will depin it and pin in a fresh wire. Hopefully I can find the right terminals on Amazon or Clark's. Oddly, I only see 8-9 volts coming out of the starter solenoid posts when in start position. I'll trace back to the ignition switch to find the voltage drop.

The starter solenoid has three terminals. The BIG battery cable terminal, an "S" terminal from the ignition key "START", an a "R" terminal that puts out voltage to the ignition coil ONLY when the starter is engaged.

When a starter is engaged the battery voltage drops. If cold or the battery is not fully charged, then 9VDC is possible.

The point of the "R" terminal is to send battery voltage coming to the starter to the coil to by-pass the ballast voltage drop. This helps gives a hotter spark from the coil during starting to help during cold weather starts.

A fully charged battery that has sat for 24hours should read about 12.8VDC. If down to 12.4VDC the battery needs charging. If you fully charge a battery, let it set a day, then it goes to 12.3VDC or less the battery is bad, or you have a power drain.

[66vairguy]

Ok....has anyone had any experience with the Ignitor I or II from Clarks? See the link please.
https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... ow_page=74

Or again, has anyone used one of these with any luck? I have yet to see the condition of my distributor shaft/bearings but I like to leave options open.
https://californiacorvairparts.com/elec ... black.html

Good questions. No electronic "drop in" ignition will fix a worn out distributor. The DELCO distributor is a good design and the only "bearing" is a bushing. Usually good for 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Depends on maintenance and abuse. DO NOT install double bushings. This was a MISTAKEN idea that the little shaft end play was BAD. GM designed the distributor to allow for alignment into the oil pump to vary. EVERYTHNG has a tolerance so some distributor shaft "wiggle" when out of the engine is NORMAL that allowsfor variations in the oil pump shaft hole and variations in the machined mounting flange for the distributor base. When the distributor is in the engine there should be almost no "wiggle" as the distributor bushing AND the hole in the oil pump housing will hold the shaft in place with little play compared to when the distributor is out of the engine. I've seen double bushing distributors WELD the shaft in the oil pump housing due to excess side loading caused by a lack of "play".

The Pertronix instructions are not adequate and I've lost track of how many INCORRECTLY installed Pertronix units I've fixed. KEEP IT SIMPLE --- Make sure the distributor is good. Install Ignitor (called Ignitor I) with the stock Corvair ballast and coil. Your 1.5 ohm coil should be fine WITH the ballast. I WILL NOT USE A PERTRONIX FLAMETHROWER COIL as I encountered too many failed units over the years. If you need a new coil go buy a quality coil for a 1965 Chevrolet Impala 283c.i. V8 engine. As close as you'll get today to the original Corvair coil. I've done many like this without issue. NOTE this is NOT recommend for turbo engines that need a higher output ignition.

Do NOT use the Pertronix Ignitor II. It has a know problem with mis-firing at low RPM, especially cars with PG since they idle at low speeds in drive. This module has a shut down circuit if you leave the key on with the engine off. I suspect it was designed for a V8 so at around 600 RPM for a six (V8 has more pulses per RPM) it shuts off, then on, then off, etc.

Some will say the Pertronix Ignitor (I) will go bad if you leave the key on with the engine off. Yes after many minutes and even points will burn up if you do that. This is why LM cars have the "ACC" position to run things with the engine off so the points and coil do not overheat with the engine off. Keep in mind this only happens when the points (or electronic switch) are closed so it's about a 50/50 chance of happening if you leave the key on and the engine off. Bottom line - never leave the key "ON" with the engine off for more than a few minutes.

The only issue I've had with the Pertronix Ignitor kits is a couple of base plates that were not machined correctly and sometimes the little wire with eyelets that bolts between the moving vacuum advance plate and the base plate (for a proper ground) is missing. Kits were replaced by the seller.

[RexJohnson]

Each cell should be 2.1v fully charged so that comes out to be 12.6v.

[2LZ]

Ok....has anyone had any experience with the Ignitor I or II from Clarks? See the link please.
https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... ow_page=74

Or again, has anyone used one of these with any luck? I have yet to see the condition of my distributor shaft/bearings but I like to leave options open.
https://californiacorvairparts.com/elec ... black.html

Good questions. No electronic "drop in" ignition will fix a worn out distributor. The DELCO distributor is a good design and the only "bearing" is a bushing. Usually good for 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Depends on maintenance and abuse. DO NOT install double bushings. This was a MISTAKEN idea that the little shaft end play was BAD. GM designed the distributor to allow for alignment into the oil pump to vary. EVERYTHNG has a tolerance so some distributor shaft "wiggle" when out of the engine is NORMAL that allowsfor variations in the oil pump shaft hole and variations in the machined mounting flange for the distributor base. When the distributor is in the engine there should be almost no "wiggle" as the distributor bushing AND the hole in the oil pump housing will hold the shaft in place with little play compared to when the distributor is out of the engine. I've seen double bushing distributors WELD the shaft in the oil pump housing due to excess side loading caused by a lack of "play".

The Pertronix instructions are not adequate and I've lost track of how many INCORRECTLY installed Pertronix units I've fixed. KEEP IT SIMPLE --- Make sure the distributor is good. Install Ignitor (called Ignitor I) with the stock Corvair ballast and coil. Your 1.5 ohm coil should be fine WITH the ballast. I WILL NOT USE A PERTRONIX FLAMETHROWER COIL as I encountered too many failed units over the years. If you need a new coil go buy a quality coil for a 1965 Chevrolet Impala 283c.i. V8 engine. As close as you'll get today to the original Corvair coil. I've done many like this without issue. NOTE this is NOT recommend for turbo engines that need a higher output ignition.

Do NOT use the Pertronix Ignitor II. It has a know problem with mis-firing at low RPM, especially cars with PG since they idle at low speeds in drive. This module has a shut down circuit if you leave the key on with the engine off. I suspect it was designed for a V8 so at around 600 RPM for a six (V8 has more pulses per RPM) it shuts off, then on, then off, etc.

Some will say the Pertronix Ignitor (I) will go bad if you leave the key on with the engine off. Yes after many minutes and even points will burn up if you do that. This is why LM cars have the "ACC" position to run things with the engine off so the points and coil do not overheat with the engine off. Keep in mind this only happens when the points (or electronic switch) are closed so it's about a 50/50 chance of happening if you leave the key on and the engine off. Bottom line - never leave the key "ON" with the engine off for more than a few minutes.

The only issue I've had with the Pertronix Ignitor kits is a couple of base plates that were not machined correctly and sometimes the little wire with eyelets that bolts between the moving vacuum advance plate and the base plate (for a proper ground) is missing. Kits were replaced by the seller.

EXCELLENT information, 66vairguy! Thank you! This is what I was looking for.
As suggested, I'll get the thing fired with the points setup and make sure i don't have any other pending issues (like a blown motor). Then after I get it dialed in, switch to the Ignitor I or the XR700-0226 (if it ever becomes available) at a later date.

The car is still very much a mystery to me and I haven't had much time to work on it, especially with this dang storm and freezing temps we've had the last week here. I'm chompin' at the bit to get out to the shop and wrench, but at the moment, a hot wood stove and petting the dog sounds more appealing.

[dcmarciano]

Some good information in this thread.
I found 8V up by the ignition switch so yes, I think it's a run down battery. It's on a charge now.
For turbos Im guessing the xr3000 might be a better route

[gbullman]

Sorry, this thread got a bit long to read through it all. The bracket kit you need for the Corvair’s distributor is;

XR700/XR3000 Installation Kit For Domestic 4, 6 And 8 Cylinder Applications
SKU: 700-2226

It was an easy install with that kit.

It looks like they are out of stock again, I had to wait for the kit to be manufactured back in spring 2022 as well.

[66vairguy]

2LZ - Your welcome. Yes a warm stove and a good dog beat working in the cold any day.

Gbullman --- Thanks for the Fast part number update.

[cnicol]

I found the resistance wire in the main engine compartment plug. I will depin it and pin in a fresh wire. Hopefully I can find the right terminals on Amazon or Clark's. Oddly, I only see 8-9 volts coming out of the starter solenoid posts when in start position. I'll trace back to the ignition switch to find the voltage drop.

Assuming you're working on your '68, the terminal in question is a Packard "Twin-Lok" or Twin-Lock" terminal. They're obsolete but you can still find them. Note that, as the name suggests, they have two locking tabs and they must be simultaneously releases. The release tool has two parallel blades spaced to put one on each side of the box-shaped terminal housing. Oddly, Twin-lock terminals are uni-sex, there is no male or female side.

[dcmarciano]

Assuming you're working on your '68, the terminal in question is a Packard "Twin-Lok" or Twin-Lock" terminal...

Yes, thanks, I found them on the Clark's website and a few others. Interesting design but a bit pricey. I'll just use a heat shrink crimp joint, bypass the connector and go to the ballast.

[Vairone]

The DELCO distributor is a good design and the only "bearing" is a bushing. Usually good for 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Depends on maintenance and abuse. DO NOT install double bushings. This was a MISTAKEN idea that the little shaft end play was BAD.

Distributor shaft end play is BAD, if out of specifications. End play is controlled by thrust washers, not by the bushing, or bushings. The bushing controls shaft radial play.

GM designed the distributor to allow for alignment into the oil pump to vary. EVERYTHNG has a tolerance so some distributor shaft "wiggle" when out of the engine is NORMAL that allowsfor variations in the oil pump shaft hole and variations in the machined mounting flange for the distributor base. When the distributor is in the engine there should be almost no "wiggle" as the distributor bushing AND the hole in the oil pump housing will hold the shaft in place with little play compared to when the distributor is out of the engine. I've seen double bushing distributors WELD the shaft in the oil pump housing due to excess side loading caused by a lack of "play".

Agreed that a poorly aligned distributor shaft will cause a problem and can damage the hole in the oil pump housing. This can happen with a single bushing, or double bushing. The cause of this is a poorly made or defective part, not the fact that a single bushing or a double bushing is used.

There are many double bushed Corvair distributors running in engines without any issues. A double bushed distributor can be made with the proper distributor shaft "wiggle" to allow for the variations you mention.

All GM HEI distributors which were modified for Corvair engines have double bushing and they do not suffer failures in the oil pump housing.

The new electronic distributors sold for Corvair engines have a ball bearing on the top and a bushing on the bottom. No mass failures of the oil pump housing have been reported.