Stinger Distributor

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lalkie01
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Stinger Distributor

Post by lalkie01 »

I am in the process of installing a Stinger Distributor in my 65 Corsa. I have purchased the linkage adapter for the carburetor and in the process of install 12 volts to the coil. I did not want to run a wire from the ignition switch but planned on tapping on the 8 pin connector on the left side of the engine compartment. When I check the voltage there it shows 14.2 volts at that point. Is this too much? What wire have other members tapped into? Any help would be appreciated. thanks Larry

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terribleted
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by terribleted »

14.2 volts when the engine is running or was just shut off would be fairly normal. The alternator or generator will make voltage in this range normally. You want to tap into the wire just before the braided cover resistor , where the ignition wire from the front of the car ends. Seems like tapping this wire before it enters the body side plug of the engine harness/body harness connector is easiest and leaves the resistor wire and other wiring intact should you want to revert to a resisted system. 20GA B/P wire by my 65 shop manual.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
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Located in Snellville, Georgia

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bbodie52
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by bbodie52 »

The nominal voltage of 12 Volt lead-acid car batteries is 2 volts per cell, however when measuring the Open Circuit Voltage (OCV), the OCV of a charged and rested battery should be approximately 2.1V/cell. (There are six cells in an automotive lead-acid battery. 2.1V X 6 = 12.6V in a stable (rested) battery). The Alternator/Generator charging system in the Corvair raises the measured open circuit voltage to approximately 14.2 VDC to provide normal operating and battery-charging levels with a running engine. When measuring the voltage impact of the 1.8 ohm resistor wire in the circuit (at the ignition coil terminals), the OCV will remain at battery voltage (nominal 12 VDC), but a TERMINATED (grounded) circuit that is conducting electrical current to ground (as with the points closed and current flowing through the ignition coil primary winding) will show the voltage as reduced by the resistor wire to approximately 7 VDC.
A battery is an electrochemical device that produces a voltage potential when placing metals of different affinities into an acid solution (electrolyte). The open circuit voltage (OCV) that develops as part of an electrochemical reaction varies with the metals and electrolyte used.

Applying a charge or discharge places the battery into the closed circuit voltage (CCV) condition. Charging raises the voltage and discharging lowers it, simulating a rubber band effect. The voltage behavior under a load and charge is governed by the current flow and the internal battery resistance. A low resistance produces low fluctuation under load or charge; a high resistance causes the voltage to swing excessively. Charging and discharging agitates the battery; full voltage stabilization takes up to 24 hours. Temperature also plays a role; a cold temperature lowers the voltage and heat raises it.

Manufacturers rate a battery by assigning a nominal voltage, and with a few exceptions, these voltages follow an agreed convention. Here are the nominal voltages of the most common batteries in brief.


Lead Acid
The nominal voltage of lead acid is 2 volts per cell, however when measuring the open circuit voltage, the OCV of a charged and rested battery should be 2.1V/cell. Keeping lead acid much below 2.1V/cell will cause the buildup of sulfation. While on float charge, lead acid measures about 2.25V/cell, higher during normal charge.
Probably the easiest way is to identify the wire that brings the ignition voltage from the ignition switch to the coil with the key in the ON position. This wire enters the large multi-connector in the engine compartment. A that point it has full 12 VDC available when the key is in the ON position. on the other side of the connector, the same circuit exits the multi-connector and enters the resistor wire. The output of the resistor wire connects to the two-connector plug that connects to the starter solenoid. The wire is spliced at that point and continues on to the ignition coil input (positive terminal). When the solenoid is not active, the reduced resistor wire voltage passes via the spliced connector to the coil. When the starter solenoid is engaged, 12 VDC is applied to the same wire (from the solenoid), which overrides the reduced resistor wire voltage and temporarily applies full 12 VDC voltage to the coil (to provide a "hotter" spark plug voltage to help start a cold engine).

If you go back to the large multi-connector and tap into the wire from the ignition switch (on the firewall side of the multi-connector) you can pick up the 12 VDC from the ignition switch there and run a straight bypass wire to the coil positive terminal. This bypasses the resistor wire circuit and the starter solenoid output connection.
bbodie52 wrote:The illustration below shows the point where you can tap in to the existing engine compartment wiring harness to bypass the existing ballast resistor circuits and provide a direct tie to the ignition switch 12 VDC power source for an aftermarket electronic ignition system that requires 12 VDC full-time. 1962, 1964, and 1965 Corvair harnesses are shown...

Image
Image
1965-1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Multi-Connector

As far as I know, the Crane Cams optical trigger XR700 is the only unit that is designed to have its electronics run on a voltage source that has already been lowered by a ballast resistor. In fact, the instructions state that connecting the Crane Cams electronic unit to a full 12 VDC power source may cause it to overheat and begin to malfunction.

Image

Pertronix Ignitor Specifications
Operating Voltage: 8-V to 16-V DC

According to Pertronix, the Ignitor can operate with an input voltage power source of 8-16 V DC. The ballast resistor in the Corvair primary circuit will drop the 12-14 V DC seen with the engine running and the alternator charging down to approximately 7-9 V DC. So if you are tapping voltage for the red Ignitor wire at the coil positive terminal, you are already close to the minimum tolerable specification. Active circuits in the car such a headlights, the heater fan, etc. can draw the average voltage down.

The stock Corvair Delco coil is also designed to run on continuous voltage that has been reduced by a ballast resistor or resistor wire. The Corvair circuitry is designed to feed the stock coli a full 12 VDC briefly from the starter solenoid while the engine is being cranked, which boosts the secondary output voltage to the spark plugs to help get the engine started during cranking. But the voltage to the coil is reduced by the ballast resistor wire in the harness to a nominal 7-8 VDC as soon as the key is released and the starter solenoid disengages. This lower voltage helps the ignition coil to run cooler, yet still produces a spark that was deemed adequate by GM engineers for normal engine operation. The reduced voltage also helps to prolong the operational life of the ignition points by reducing arcing and burning as the points open and close.

Most high performance aftermarket ignition coils — such as those produced by Crane Cams and Pertronix — are designed for higher voltage output to the spark plugs, and are designed to handle a full 12 VDC power source during continuous engine operation without overheating.

Image

HOWEVER, THE PERTRONIX FLAME-THROWER COIL IS AVAILABLE IN BOTH 1.5 OHM AND 3.0 OHM VERSIONS. PERTRONIX RECOMMENDS A FULL 12 VDC INPUT WITH NO EXTERNAL BALLAST RESISTOR FOR THEIR FLAMETHROWER COILS, BUT ALSO RECOMMENDS THE 1.5 OHM VERSION FOR V8 ENGINES AND THE 3.0 OHM VERSION LISTED BELOW FOR THE 4 AND 6 CYLINDER ENGINES.

The 3 ohm version of the Flame-Thrower coil reduces current flow through the primary winding, which causes the coil to run cooler with the longer 4 and 6 cylinder engine duty cycle (the amount of time the coil primary winding is ON between ignition firing cycles). This average charging time before discharge to fire a spark plug is longer at a given RPM on a 4 or 6-cylinder engine due to the reduced number of cylinders. The coil is able to produce its advertised 40,000 volt output with a reduced current 3.0 ohm primary winding and an associated reduced current flow, which allows the coil to run at a cooler temperature. The duty cycle with an 8 cylinder engine is shorter, so the 8 cylinder engine needs more current flow through the coil from the 12 volt input, therefore a 1.5 ohm primary is specified for an 8 cylinder engine.

In either configuration, bringing a full 12 VDC to the coil positive terminal provides a convenient power source for an electronic ignition, such as a Stinger distributor or a Pertronix Ignitor or Ignitor II module. This would not be recommended for the Crane Cams XR700 electronic ignition module, however, since it is designed to operate with a voltage that has already been reduced by a factory ballast resistor or resistor wire.


Image

40611 Black Epoxy Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

28010 Black Industrial Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

40511 Black Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

40501 Chrome Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

:angry: :nono: Note that it is never wise to leave the ignition key in the ON position for a long time without the engine running. If the points are closed or the electronic ignition module is conducting electricity continuously to Ground from the coil negative terminal without the engine running, the battery will be draining and the coil may overheat and possibly be damaged. Some early Pertronix Ignitor I electronic modules were also known to be damaged if the key was left ON without the engine running.
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

lalkie01
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by lalkie01 »

Thanks for the help. I will follow the above instructions. Larry

66vairguy
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by 66vairguy »

The "Stinger" is suppose to be a GM HEI style that used a low impedance coil and no ballast, so yes it runs off the system voltage of 12.8 to 14.8 VDC. UNFORTUNATLEY the after market HEI style parts are often inferior. Seth Emerson sold the Stinger for awhile and had a number of issues with them so he quit selling them (expect for racing setups), but he posted on the CCF that amperage should be reduced by running a higher impedance coil.

Seth didn't have an exclusive deal with the manufacturer and a number of companies undercut his price, but offered NO service or assistance. Word has it folks stated calling Seth for "FREE HELP" and Seth stopped selling/supporting the Stinger.

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bbodie52
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by bbodie52 »

Seth Emerson did mention that the Stinger distributor does appear to have some reliability issues. Pertronix also recommends a 3.0 ohm coil to reduce current loads with 4 and 6 cylinder engines, as shown below. Perhaps the reduced current will improve Stinger distributor reliability. :dontknow: :pray:
Most high performance aftermarket ignition coils — such as those produced by Crane Cams and Pertronix — are designed for higher voltage output to the spark plugs, and are designed to handle a full 12 VDC power source during continuous engine operation without overheating.

Image

HOWEVER, THE PERTRONIX FLAME-THROWER COIL IS AVAILABLE IN BOTH 1.5 OHM AND 3.0 OHM VERSIONS. PERTRONIX RECOMMENDS A FULL 12 VDC INPUT WITH NO EXTERNAL BALLAST RESISTOR FOR THEIR FLAMETHROWER COILS, BUT ALSO RECOMMENDS THE 1.5 OHM VERSION FOR V8 ENGINES AND THE 3.0 OHM VERSION LISTED BELOW FOR THE 4 AND 6 CYLINDER ENGINES.

The 3 ohm version of the Flame-Thrower coil reduces current flow through the primary winding, which causes the coil to run cooler with the longer 4 and 6 cylinder engine duty cycle (the amount of time the coil primary winding is ON between ignition firing cycles). This average charging time before discharge to fire a spark plug is longer at a given RPM on a 4 or 6-cylinder engine due to the reduced number of cylinders. The coil is able to produce its advertised 40,000 volt output with a reduced current 3.0 ohm primary winding and an associated reduced current flow, which allows the coil to run at a cooler temperature. The duty cycle with an 8 cylinder engine is shorter, so the 8 cylinder engine needs more current flow through the coil from the 12 volt input, therefore a 1.5 ohm primary is specified for an 8 cylinder engine.

In either configuration, bringing a full 12 VDC to the coil positive terminal provides a convenient power source for an electronic ignition, such as a Stinger distributor or a Pertronix Ignitor or Ignitor II module. This would not be recommended for the Crane Cams XR700 electronic ignition module, however, since it is designed to operate with a voltage that has already been reduced by a factory ballast resistor or resistor wire.


Image

40611 Black Epoxy Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

28010 Black Industrial Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

40511 Black Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

40501 Chrome Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

66vairguy
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by 66vairguy »

We've been over the Pertronix recommendations before. Not very good as they are generalizations that mislead.

Fact is you DO NOT want to run a 3.0 ohm coil WITH a Corvair ignition ballast. Except for a few very high Chevy performance engines, the ballast AND primary coil resistance was a little over 3.0 ohms plus specified tolerances. Chevy used different coils per engine configuration, but they all had the same primary resistance (except the "special" V8's). If the ballast resistor wire is missing, then yes use a 3.0 ohm coil.

Of course using the 3.0 ohm coil will degrade the performance of the HEI type distributor. This is why I do a proper rebuild of the stock Corvair distributor, run a simple Pertronix Ignitor (not Ignitor II) with the stock ballast wire and a good quality coil for a mid 60's Chevy small block V8 (which had nearly the same specifications as the Corvair 140HP coil). Works great for me.

erco
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by erco »

Don't nobody even mention Pertronix' 0.6 ohm coil: https://www.amazon.com/PerTronix-45001- ... B00199DPY4

or their 0.32 ohm coil: https://www.amazon.com/Pertronix-44011- ... B002Q363XM

because that would open up another can of worms.

66vairguy
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by 66vairguy »

One of the local "Corvair repair experts" put a O.6 ohm Pertronix Flamethrower coil on a stock Corvair to make it "run better". The owner is in our club and called me because "something is smoking in the engine". The low impedance coil had caused the ballast wire in the harness to overheat and damaged the harness.

The actual problem is the "expert" set the timing wrong when he tuned it up and the car would not go over 65MPH!!! So the "expert" talked the owner into spending more money for a coil that was incorrect.

This is why I avoid Corvair repair shops.

joelsplace
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Re: Stinger Distributor

Post by joelsplace »

There are several knowledgeable Corvair repair shops and none of them would have done that. I avoid repair shops of any kind.
113 Corvairs, 5 Ultravans and counting
Northlake, TX

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