Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

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Walt
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Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by Walt »

So this past week I drove my 1,000th mile in my 64 convertible 110 w/pg... it's been great! I love this car! It's been driving great besides some pinging under load when it's hot, but I was planning on a full tune-up check this weekend complete with compression check, spark gap, points, timing, carb synch... all learned from here on this forum! Thank you all for the knowledge you share here!

But yesterday, my daughter wanted to start the car to show her friend and...'click' and nothing. She called me out and I tried... I turned the key and got one 'click' but then also a 'whirring' sound after. Ugh. I tried jumping the car but same result. So much for my tune-up check today! So I figured, battery, solenoid or starter or some connection between them. I read through some posts here and last night tried a test I came across since it was dark: Turned headlights on, turned key, got the click and whir, headlights dimmed while key was turned, but as soon as I turned the key off, the headlights came right back on brightly. Apparently that means the starter is the issue. Needless to say, I had a new battery around already, so I threw that in... same result so not the battery. Hooked up remote start button to battery and purple wire heading to the starter at the connection in the engine compartment and same result: One click and whir. Battery connections are solid. Starter and solenoid connections are solid as well and from the photos below you can see that the starter and solenoid are clearly very new - but put on the car before I purchased 5 months ago. So is there anything else I can do - oh, I did try to whack the starter a few times which didn't do anything either - anything else to try without pulling the starter out? I've read a few posts here saying folks got that thing out in 15-30 minutes, but I look at it and wonder how in the world do I reach it!

Thank you for any insights :)
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terribleted
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by terribleted »

What you describe can often be traced to bad connection at the battery. Look at and clean battery and ground connections first. Yes you could have a starter issue, but, bad battery connections or weak battery are at least just as likely if not more likely.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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Walt
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by Walt »

I will double check them, thanks :)

66vairguy
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by 66vairguy »

If the starter solenoid is good the starter should NOT rotate until the starter gear is fully engaged with the torque converter ring gear. You description indicates the starter is turning on, but not engaging the torque converter ring gear.

The starter motor switch in the solenoid cxould be supplying power to the starter motor before it is fully engaged or the starter one-way sprag clutch has failed. Other issues could be: the solenoid lever that slides the one-way sprag clutch AND starter gear to engage the torque converter ring gear could be worn to the point you don't get full engagement, the aluminum housing on the end of the starter could be broken, or the ring gear on the torque converter is bad.

So --- time to take out the starter and examine things. Hopefully it is just a bad solenoid or engagement lever.

joelsplace
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by joelsplace »

"the starter one-way sprag clutch has failed"
This is the #1 issue I've had on any starter for the whirring symptom.
The click with no whirring is almost always a bad connection at the battery or a bad solenoid.
A broken nose or bad ring gear almost always makes grinding noises.
113 Corvairs, 5 Ultravans and counting
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Walt
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by Walt »

So the ground connections seem solid and I just threw in a brand new battery so that should be good. The odd thing to me is that this all happened so suddenly and out of the blue without any warning... I took the car for a nice hour long drive after work one evening this past week, the next afternoon went to start it and here we are. And I guess because the starter and solenoid seemed to be brand new when I got the car I was hoping not to have any starter issues so soon!

So any good tips on the starter removal process? obviously I will jack it up take off the rear wheel and see it from the side there it just seemed pretty far in there I don't see any videos available of anyone doing it on the corvair but I've heard people get it out pretty darn quickly!

Just seeing a new post before I submit this it is definitely a single click with a whirring sound after it

Thanks!

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terribleted
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by terribleted »

Extension and 9/16 socket wrench. Disconnect the battery, then note positions of the wires on the starter and disconnect them. Use socket and extension to remove the 2 9/16 head bolts holding it in place. The upper one is a pain but can be reached. I usually remove the lower bolt first on these. pull the starter forward out of the bellhousing and rotate and move it around until it clears the governor. It will clear just hold your mouth right:)
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joelsplace
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by joelsplace »

What is your thinking on removing the lower bolt first? I usually do the hidden one first so the starter stays in place.
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by terribleted »

I have no issue getting the top one out. with the lower one removed I can move the starter around to facilitate removing the upper bolt. Perhaps only loosening the lower a little would be enough to be sure the upper does not bind, but I have never really had an issue holding the starter up in place and removing the top bolt/
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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Located in Snellville, Georgia

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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by bbodie52 »

Walt wrote: » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:44 pm

...I turned the key and got one 'click' but then also a 'whirring' sound after. Ugh. I tried jumping the car but same result. So much for my tune-up check today! So I figured, battery, solenoid or starter or some connection between them. I read through some posts here and last night tried a test I came across since it was dark: Turned headlights on, turned key, got the click and whir, headlights dimmed while key was turned, but as soon as I turned the key off, the headlights came right back on brightly...
The headlights dimming while key was turned, but coming back on with the key off is perhaps a clue. Did you actually have to turn the key OFF to get the bright headlights back, or did you mean that you just released the key from the START position?

While a faulty starter solenoid is certainly a possibility, there are a couple of other things that can affect the voltage/current flow to the ignition switch and other vehicle accessories that are wired via a portion of the wiring harness other than the main battery cable to the starter solenoid. All other vehicle accessories, including the headlights, the voltage fed to the starter solenoid from the ignition switch (to trigger the solenoid into action), etc. are powered by a 10 gauge wire (10 R) from the battery positive terminal via the voltage regulator and then the large multi-connector in the engine compartment. That wire feeds everything in the vehicle other than the starter motor.

The large multi-connector (8 or 10 wire) in the engine compartment is subjected to age, vibration, moisture, corrosion, burned, bent, or damaged metal connections inside the connector shell, etc. Even when the two halves of this multi-connector are pressed together, the actual electrical connection inside between the pairs of metal pins could be degraded by arcing or corrosion. I would recommend separating the two halves and inspecting/cleaning the metal pins inside. Doing so may improve the current flow to the rest of the vehicle components.

If you suspect that moisture, dirt, corrosion, or some physical damage or misalignment between the pins in the multi-connector could be a problem, you can separate the two halves and clean/inspect/repair the metal pins inside the plastic shell.
Most rear circuits route through the engine compartment multi-connector (below the voltage regulator, near the firewall). The number of metal connector pins inside depend on the Corvair model year, ranging from 8-12 pins. This rear multi-connector is a common source of trouble, as it is subjected to age, vibration, heat, and moisture for many years. Even when the outer plastic shell halves appear to be tightly connected, the internal metal pins may not be providing good electrical connectivity, as they may be loose, dirty, corroded, or bent.

:link: https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-22058-D ... ric+grease
Permatex 22058 Dielectric Tune-Up Grease, 3 oz. Tube

Image
Left-Click the schematic to enlarge for better viewing. Click a second time for maximum enlargement to move around the close-up view for maximum detail...
1964 Corvair Passenger Car Combined Schematic
1964 Corvair Passenger Car Combined Schematic
Another possibility is an improperly grounded battery connection. The Corvair requires two ground connections from the battery — one thick cable directly to the engine, and a 10 gauge thin wire (or a dual-connection ground cable) from the battery negative terminal to the car chassis. Some people forget this second vehicle chassis ground if they replace the ground cable. If the only ground connection is between the negative terminal and the engine, the car chassis is somewhat isolated from battery ground by the rubber engine and transaxle mounts, which not only isolate the car from powertrain vibration, but isolate it electrically as well! The early model (1961-1964) schematic diagrams only show a single ground connection to the battery — but there are physically two ground connections — one to the engine and one to the body/chassis. (This was corrected in the 1965 Shop Manual schematic diagram, which depicts both a chassis ground AND an engine ground connection).

Image

Image

Recommend you check the condition of the multi-connector AND the ground configuration in your engine compartment.

For additional Corvair wiring diagrams, see CORVAIR COMBINED WIRING SCHEMATIC DIAGRAMS :link: viewtopic.php?f=225&t=12968

:chevy: :wrench:
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1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 8 - Electrical Systems.pdf
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Walt
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by Walt »

1st of all thank you for the removal tips I think I'm pretty clear on it I guess I just need to get in there and try :) 2nd the headlights came back on brightly when I just released the key from the start position to the on position I did not have to turn it all the way to off. I just went out and checked the multi connector pulled it apart certainly seems old and a little dusty but nothing corroded or horrible looking I pushed it back together tried to start it but nothing new. And thank you I've learned something new about grounding the car and fortunately you can see from the picture I am grounded properly :)
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by terribleted »

Should be well grounded if there is not corrosion where the wire goes into the replacement battery terminal or where the ground wires hook together on the frame rail.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia

Walt
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by Walt »

So something dawned on me this morning and I got a good laugh from it... in wondering how in the world this starter comes out, I'm imagining the challenge of reaching in there AND having to turn a socket wrench... the job would be a whole lot easier with an impact wrench and compressor right?! Which of course I do not have... is it possible with hand tools or do all of you have the power tools?

Walt
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by Walt »

Also I came across the attached photo in the Clark's catalog... should I consider this? Are my symptoms a common Corvair issue that could be fixed with a relay or is this nothing to consider? Thanks!
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66vairguy
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by 66vairguy »

Walt wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:00 am
Also I came across the attached photo in the Clark's catalog... should I consider this? Are my symptoms a common Corvair issue that could be fixed with a relay or is this nothing to consider? Thanks!
NO!! The relay is to compensate for low voltage/amperage at the starter solenoid. It's a fix to compensate for old wiring and corroded contacts. As I like to remind folks - about two million Corvairs worked just fine IF the wiring and connections are in good shape. You problem is not a solenoid activation issue as indicated by just a clicking sound and no starter running that the Clark's relay is suppose to fix. To me it's a shade tree mechanic fix instead of fixing the wiring and one more part to give trouble down the road.

First find your problem before throwing a fix at it that may be a waste of time and money. As Ted confirmed, you starter motor is running, it's just not turning the starter gear, or the torque converter ring gear is broken.

Walt
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Re: Sudden starting issue with 64 110 pg

Post by Walt »

Ok very good, thank you for your reply!

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