Pro Series Distributor

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lalkie01
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by lalkie01 »

Thanks again. I really appreciate the information. I hope other can use it too. Larry

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bbodie52
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by bbodie52 »

If you decide to install a Stinger distributor, the wiring diagrams below show the easiest location (in the engine compartment) to tap into the Ignition Switch 12 VDC output — bypassing the resistor wire — to power both the distributor electronics and the replacement coil. The Flame-Thrower application chart shows that Pertronix recommends the 3.0 ohm version of their Flame-Thrower coil (or their Flame-Thrower II coil) for use in 6-cylinder applications (coil powered by a full 12 VDC, bypassing the resistor wire). Either coil is designed for full-time 12 VDC operation and will work properly with the Stinger distributor.

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I don't think that the Stinger distributor looks that big. Note that the coil in the above picture has been re-positioned to mount on the engine compartment frame, rather than the standard mounting location on the right cylinder head. Moving the coil mounting bracket away from the hot cylinder head mount will reduce the environmental heat the coil is exposed to.
bbodie52 wrote:The illustration below shows the point where you can tap in to the existing engine compartment wiring harness to bypass the existing ballast resistor circuits and provide a direct tie to the ignition switch 12 VDC power source for an aftermarket electronic ignition system that requires 12 VDC full-time. 1962, 1964, and 1965 Corvair harnesses are shown...

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1965-1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Multi-Connector

As far as I know, the Crane Cams optical trigger XR700 is the only unit that is designed to have its electronics run on a voltage source that has already been lowered by a ballast resistor. In fact, the instructions state that connecting the Crane Cams electronic unit to a full 12 VDC power source may cause it to overheat and begin to malfunction.

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Pertronix Ignitor Specifications
Operating Voltage: 8-V to 16-V DC

According to Pertronix, the Ignitor can operate with an input voltage power source of 8-16 V DC. The ballast resistor in the Corvair primary circuit will drop the 12-14 V DC seen with the engine running and the alternator charging down to approximately 7-9 V DC. So if you are tapping voltage for the red Ignitor wire at the coil positive terminal, you are already close to the minimum tolerable specification. Active circuits in the car such a headlights, the heater fan, etc. can draw the average voltage down.

The stock Corvair Delco coil is also designed to run on continuous voltage that has been reduced by a ballast resistor or resistor wire. The Corvair circuitry is designed to feed the stock coli a full 12 VDC briefly from the starter solenoid while the engine is being cranked, which boosts the secondary output voltage to the spark plugs to help get the engine started during cranking. But the voltage to the coil is reduced by the ballast resistor wire in the harness to a nominal 7-8 VDC as soon as the key is released and the starter solenoid disengages. This lower voltage helps the ignition coil to run cooler, yet still produces a spark that was deemed adequate by GM engineers for normal engine operation. The reduced voltage also helps to prolong the operational life of the ignition points by reducing arcing and burning as the points open and close.

Most high performance aftermarket ignition coils — such as those produced by Crane Cams and Pertronix — are designed for higher voltage output to the spark plugs, and are designed to handle a full 12 VDC power source during continuous engine operation without overheating.

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HOWEVER, THE PERTRONIX FLAME-THROWER COIL IS AVAILABLE IN BOTH 1.5 OHM AND 3.0 OHM VERSIONS. PERTRONIX RECOMMENDS A FULL 12 VDC INPUT WITH NO EXTERNAL BALLAST RESISTOR FOR THEIR FLAMETHROWER COILS, BUT ALSO RECOMMENDS THE 1.5 OHM VERSION FOR V8 ENGINES AND THE 3.0 OHM VERSION LISTED BELOW FOR THE 4 AND 6 CYLINDER ENGINES.

The 3 ohm version of the Flame-Thrower coil reduces current flow through the primary winding, which causes the coil to run cooler with the longer 4 and 6 cylinder engine duty cycle (the amount of time the coil primary winding is ON between ignition firing cycles). This average charging time before discharge to fire a spark plug is longer at a given RPM on a 4 or 6-cylinder engine due to the reduced number of cylinders. The coil is able to produce its advertised 40,000 volt output with a reduced current 3.0 ohm primary winding and an associated reduced current flow, which allows the coil to run at a cooler temperature. The duty cycle with an 8 cylinder engine is shorter, so the 8 cylinder engine needs more current flow through the coil from the 12 volt input, therefore a 1.5 ohm primary is specified for an 8 cylinder engine.

In either configuration, bringing a full 12 VDC to the coil positive terminal provides a convenient power source for an electronic ignition, such as a Stinger distributor or a Pertronix Ignitor or Ignitor II module. This would not be recommended for the Crane Cams XR700 electronic ignition module, however, since it is designed to operate with a voltage that has already been reduced by a factory ballast resistor or resistor wire.


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40611 Black Epoxy Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

28010 Black Industrial Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

40511 Black Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

40501 Chrome Oil Filled Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt Coil — 3 Ohm

:angry: :nono: Note that it is never wise to leave the ignition key in the ON position for a long time without the engine running. If the points are closed or the electronic ignition module is conducting electricity continuously to Ground from the coil negative terminal without the engine running, the battery will be draining and the coil may overheat and possibly be damaged. Some early Pertronix Ignitor I electronic modules were also known to be damaged if the key was left ON without the engine running.
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

lalkie01
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Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:02 pm

Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by lalkie01 »

I was able to check my distributor plate today. I could not get it to move while sucking on the vacuum line. I hooked the vacuum line up and increased engine speed and there was no movement. The vacuum at the increased speed was about 12 to 13 pounds. Elevation is 4500 where I live. I pried the vacuum advance linkage with a screwdriver and the engine speed decreased. The plate seems reasonable solid but was very hard moving it with the screwdriver.
I took the vacuum canister off and hooked it to the vacuum line running the engine it seemed to move like it should and would hold position. Again I manually moved the lever attached to the vacuum advance and it slowed the engine down. It had some resistance and I could feel the points putting pressure on the plate against advancing the timing. My distributor number is 1110330. I was surprised to find that moving the advance expecting the engine speed to increase but it would decrease. The number on the canister is 370 and pulls on the distributor plate.

Should the canister pull or push on the plate?

If the plate was moved counter clockwise and a push vacuum advance unit was used it should advance the timing.
Larry

joelsplace
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by joelsplace »

It pulls on everything but a turbo. Clark's doesn't show a 370.
114 Corvairs, 5 Ultravans and counting
Northlake, TX

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terribleted
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by terribleted »

lalkie01 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm
I was able to check my distributor plate today. I could not get it to move while sucking on the vacuum line. I hooked the vacuum line up and increased engine speed and there was no movement. The vacuum at the increased speed was about 12 to 13 pounds. Elevation is 4500 where I live. I pried the vacuum advance linkage with a screwdriver and the engine speed decreased. The plate seems reasonable solid but was very hard moving it with the screwdriver.
I took the vacuum canister off and hooked it to the vacuum line running the engine it seemed to move like it should and would hold position. Again I manually moved the lever attached to the vacuum advance and it slowed the engine down. It had some resistance and I could feel the points putting pressure on the plate against advancing the timing. My distributor number is 1110330. I was surprised to find that moving the advance expecting the engine speed to increase but it would decrease. The number on the canister is 370 and pulls on the distributor plate.

Should the canister pull or push on the plate?

If the plate was moved counter clockwise and a push vacuum advance unit was used it should advance the timing.
Larry
It should pull. It should be fully off (to the left) at idle. It should be active from just above idle until some midrange rpm when the engine is accelerated. It will be off or near off with the engine at higher rpms. Sucking with you mouth will not move it. To test them I push the lever to the right into the canister until it stops. I then put my finger over the hose nipple and let off the the lever. The lever should not return to the out position until I remove my finger. If it does the vacuum diaphragm inside is bad and the advance should be replaced. A 370 vacuum advance delivers 10 degrees of advance when fully on. Most 330 distributors (this is a 140 HP distributor I am assuming you have a 140HP 4 carb engine...if not it would be a good idea to get a correct distributor for the engine), use a 248 or 217 vacuum advance. The 248 gives 10.5 degrees when on and the 217 gives 11 degrees. Clark's offers a 248 in repro. I would not expect big differences from changing vacuum advance from 370 to 248 IF the 370 is functioning, but I might replace it with the correct item anyway.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
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Located in Snellville, Georgia

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bbodie52
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by bbodie52 »

:think: From your description, it sounds like your vacuum advance canister mechanism may be able to move when subjected to engine vacuum, BUT NOT WHEN IT IS LINKED TO THE DISTRIBUTOR BREAKER PLATE, WHICH IS PROBABLY STUCK, OR JAMMED AND UNABLE TO MOVE. When the vacuum advance lever that is tied to the breaker plate retracts into the canister (when the internal diaphragm is subjected to engine vacuum) it pulls the moving part of the breaker plate (and the attached ignition points) to the right, in relation to the distributor cam lobe. This means that the rubbing block on the points is struck by the cam lobe EARLIER, so the timing is advanced.

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An animated refresher... in this video a 4-cylinder engine operating with ignition points is depicted. The distributor rotation
is depicted to be CLOCKWISE, which matches the Corvair. So in most ways the animation matches the Corvair operation.

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It may be a little hard to visualize mentally, but VACUUM ADVANCE occurs by moving the BREAKER PLATE AND POINTS Counter-Clockwise in relation to the distributor cam. This means that the cam — which is rotating clockwise — pushes the points rubbing block earlier, which advances the timing. The CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE mechanism moves the rotating distributor cam (not the breaker plate) CLOCKWISE, which again means that the ignition points rubbing block is moved by the cam lobe earlier, which advances the timing. So moving the points to the right, or moving the cam lobe to the left (in relation to the points) causes the points to open sooner, which adds degrees of timing advance in relation to the position of the crankshaft.

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Centrifugal Advance Weights.jpg

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The pictures and descriptions (captions) in the attached guide, Tuning the Corvair Engine, may help you to understand and mentally picture the operation of the engine components...


Tuning the Corvair Engine — Part 1



Tuning The Corvair Engine — Part 2

Attachments
Tuning the Corvair Engine.pdf
Tuning the Corvair Engine
(4.6 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
Brad Bodie
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Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

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terribleted
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by terribleted »

lalkie01 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm


Should the canister pull or push on the plate?

If the plate was moved counter clockwise and a push vacuum advance unit was used it should advance the timing.
Larry
Canister pulls the plate to the right or CCW this advances the timing.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia

lalkie01
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by lalkie01 »

The plate on the distributor moves easily when the engine is not running. The vacuum canister seems to work well but can't move the plate when suck on it or when the engine sucks on it while connected to the plate. I will continue checking to find the problem. The canister is relatively new. The plate moves to the stop and returns without any problems and seems to move smoothly. I hate to spend the money on a new distributor if I don't need one. Larry

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bbodie52
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Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by bbodie52 »

The main advantage in upgrading to the Stinger distributor for the Corvair owner with a stock engine is increased reliability and low maintenance (because of the electronic breakerless ignition system. Ignition points begin to wear on the first day of installation, with the point gap (dwell) generally decreasing as the normal arcing, burning and material transfer between the contacts changes engine timing and reduces coil output as coil charging time is reduced. With the breakerless ignition system, there is no physical wear, so nothing changes and control of the ignition coil remains optimum. With the exception of periodic replacement of the spark plugs, an ignition tune-up becomes a thing of the past.

Basic distributor periodic tune-up parts cost: $22.25-$33.70 for new points and condenser (Clark's Corvair Parts Prices)

In the past, the only option for a breakerless system upgrade was the 1962-1969 Corvair GM Delco distributor upgraded using a Pertronix Ignitor or Ignitor II (magnetic trigger) or a Crane Cams/FAST XR700 (Optical Trigger) upgrade kit.

Cost Estimate (Does NOT include repair or replacement components to recondition the base GM distributor/cap/rotor/vacuum advance):
$94.65 (Pertronix Ignitor) or $132.70 (Pertronix Ignitor II) plus $41.99 (Pertronix Flame-Thrower 3.0 Ohm Coil) or $49.10 (Pertronix Flame-Thrower II Coil) Total: $136.64 - $181.80.

$187.40 (Crane Cams/FAST XR700 and PS40 Coil)

New Stinger Distributor: $211 (Stinger Distributor with original-style cap) or $194 (Stinger distributor with HEI style cap)
HEI Spark Plug Wire Kit: $49.35
New 12 Volt Performance Ignition Coil: $41.99 - $49.10

As you can see, the cost for upgrading/reconditioning the Corvair GM distributor or switching to a brand new Stinger distributor is comparable, depending on personal preferences, coil selection, plug wire upgrade, the condition of the original distributor, if reused, etc.
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

lalkie01
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:02 pm

Re: Pro Series Distributor

Post by lalkie01 »

I ran the car today with the vacuum advance off the distributor and the vacuum line plugged. It had very little surging and ran better at higher rpm's. It appears as if I need to replace the distributor and will probably go with the stinger unit based on the last post by brodie52. There is a lot of information on this post I hope others can use it. I really appreciate the information by other members. Thanks Larry

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