Jacking up the rear...?

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65CherryMonza
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Jacking up the rear...?

Post by 65CherryMonza »

Guys as I have some rust on my rear frame rails I don't really want to Jack the car up from the rear pick up points left and right frame rails. But I do have to get the back wheels off. Where would be another point I can pick the rear from ? I got one 4 tone jack and jack stands. Any suggestions would be appreciated !

65 Corvair Monza 110 automatic.
Thanks
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bbodie52
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by bbodie52 »

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I think you can safely use the flat surface area inside the triangle for a jack stand or a jack, but when you lift the car follow the guidelines outlined below...

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actual pics of jacks in proper locations

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actual pics of jacks in proper locations
:link: http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,665888

BE SURE TO USE JACK STANDS OR VEHICLE RAMPS TO SAFELY JACK UP YOUR CAR! DON'T TRUST A HYDRAULIC OR SCISSORS JACK ALONE.

Use proper lift points, and do not jack up the rear of the vehicle with a jack placed under the engine or transaxle. The powertrain mounts are not intended to support the weight of the car by placing a jack under the differential!
bbodie52 wrote:
bbodie52 wrote:Not a Good Idea!

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While it seems like a natural jacking or lift point (I used to do it too), jacking a Corvair or placing jack stands under the differential is not a good idea! The engine and powertrain are isolated from the chassis by rubber engine mounts — two in front of the transmission and one at the rear. These are strong rubber and steel mounts designed to hold the weight of the engine and transaxle as they hang from the chassis. When you jack up the car by placing a jack or jack stands under the differential, you reverse this load and you have the entire weight of the rear portion of the Corvair hanging from the engine mounts! The mounts were not designed for this, and the rubber that holds the mounts together can be compromised or weakened by placing this kind of unusual stress on the engine mounts. This could shorten the life of the engine mounts and ultimately result in an engine mount failure.

No Corvair shop manual shows the Engine/Transaxle as an approved or recommended lift point when jacking the car off of the ground, as shown below...

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Early Model (1960-1964) Corvair Lift Points

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Late Model (1965-1969) Corvair Lift Points





Most jack stands will fit inside the triangular area at the rear. There are pleanty of lifting points in the front.

I keep a pair of these compact jack stands in my trunk. NEVER TRUST A SCISSORS JACK, HYDRAULIC JACK, ETC. TO SUPPORT YOUR CAR IF YOU ARE GOING UNDER IT! Also, never use concrete cinder blocks to support your car. They can fracture or crush under the weight without warning!

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Compact Jack Stands:
Torin T43004 3 Ton Aluminum Jack Stands (Sold in Pairs)
:link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007X ... PDKIKX0DER

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I have a little scary and bad experience with using a manual scissors jack. Here is my tale that I posted some years ago...
bbodie52 wrote:
SteveH wrote:...My car came with its original scissor jack but it was a solid immobile chunk. it works great now. I shot a coat of paint on it last night, just because I was so happy that it works now.

Your mention of an ancient scissors jack brought forth a shudder, as I remembered the last time I used an original Corvair scissors jack in the early 1980's. A failed rear axle bearing in my 1965 Corsa coupe during a cross-country journey in 1981 brought about a potentially fatal experience while passing through Cheyenne, Wyoming. Although I've told this story on the Corvair Forum before, I thought that you might enjoy hearing it. If you will bear with me for a few paragraphs...

::-):
bbodie52 wrote:A failed rear axle bearing was the only breakdown event where I've ever been stranded with one of my Corvairs while on a long journey. My family was with me as we were traveling from Thousand Oaks, California to Incline Village, Nevada — Lake Tahoe (573 miles), and then on to a shipping port in New Jersey, near McGuire AFB. We were shipping our 1965 Corsa coupe to Germany, to drive there during our three-year tour of duty with the Air Force near Ramstein Air Base.

My wife and two young sons (ages 5 and almost 3) were with me in September 1981. The journey was uneventful as we drove across a lot of barren and desolate country from Lake Tahoe, across Nevada, past the Bonneville Salt Flats, and spent the night in Salt Lake City, Utah (551 miles). The next day we traveled on to F.E. Warren Air Force Base, at Cheyenne, Wyoming (436 miles). Upon our arrival, we found overnight family quarters available on base. We were leaving the base to get a meal when I heard it: a squeaking, grinding sound from the right rear wheel! The wheel bearing was failing!! In something of a growing state of panic, I grabbed a phone book and began calling local auto junk yards in the late afternoon. Believe it or not I found a junk yard where the person on the phone thought he had a late model Corvair back in the yard somewhere. Leaving my family in the transient family quarters, I grabbed a taxi to the junk yard, and anxiously followed the manager out to the Corvair. It was a stripped vehicle with no powertrain and no wheels, sitting with the body on the ground. The right side was up against an adjacent junked car. The left rear wheel bearing assembly had already been removed, but I could see that the right-side bearing assembly was still in there! I couldn't reach it, but I could see it!

The manager loaned me some tools and a flashlight (it was getting dark, and the salvage yard was closing). I jacked the body up off of the ground using a bumper jack jammed into the body opening — where the engine normally exhausted heat. With the rear up in the air, I pushed the car to the left so that it fell back on the ground — but this time a foot or so from the adjacent wrecked car. Another turn with the bumper jack produced another foot of clearance for me to work in. The bearing hub seemed to turn smoothly, so I assumed that I had a good one!! I grabbed a socket wrench and an extension and removed three of the four nuts that secured the bearing assembly to the rear suspension. But then... DISASTER! The fourth nut was not coming off! It just kept turning while the blind stud that was not supposed to move was turning! I ended up working into the evening darkness with a flashlight, chisel and hammer, desperately trying to chisel the nut to release the bearing assembly from the stud that did not want to let go. The manager of the junk yard was waiting long past closing on a Saturday night as I labored to get the bearing assembly from the junked Corvair. Finally the nut split and I was able to remove it and the bearing assembly. I paid the manager and he agreed to drive me back to the Air Force base, where I went to sleep — cold, tired and dirty. I don't believe anyone in the family ever had any dinner that evening — we just went to bed tired and hungry.

But there is more to this story! On a cold Wyoming Sunday morning I went out to the parking lot and jacked the right rear of the Corvair into the air using the old scissors jack that came with the car. I had no jack stands to hold the car in the air, so I just decided to risk working on the car with only a 16 year old factory scissors jack holding the car up. :nono: The scissors jack worm screw squeaked as I raised the car, but I ignored it. I removed the wheel, half shaft, and worked to remove the bad wheel bearing assembly and brake backing plate. It was cold and the work went slowly because my fingers didn't work well in the cold. I was laying at times under the engine with nothing holding the car up except that jack. The right wheel and brake assembly was sitting on the pavement. Finally, after some hours in the cold I finished re-installing the "new" bearing assembly.

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With the rear wheel and tire back on, I began to lower the jack. I gave it about ¼ turn counter-clockwise, heard another squeak, AND THE JACK COLLAPSED!! The threads in the fixed nut that held the worm screw mechanism pulled right out of the nut!

My life had quite literally been hanging by a thread! If that jack had collapsed with me under the car, I would probably have been crushed by the heavy engine and powertrain. For much of the time when I was under the car, removing and re-attaching the half shaft between the differential and the bearing assembly, I was laying under the car with only a brake drum and my body there to support the car when it would have hit the ground.
:whoa: :eek:
After I quit shaking, I examined the broken jack. The worm screw moved freely back and forth through the now-stripped fixed nut, with no threads in the nut to prevent its movement. The scissors mechanism moved freely up and down.

There was an opened dumpster some distance away, and I hurled the broken jack into that dumpster — never to be seen again. I cleaned up, packed up, and we began travelling the remaining 1,743 miles to McGuire AFB, New Jersey. (I did stop at a Sears to pick up a replacement jack for the car, and I also managed to get two speeding tickets in Iowa on the next day! But otherwise there were no more significant events during our journey).

Now you can see why I stress safety when working on a car, and I ALWAYS secure the car with jack stands before I work under it! I was foolish that day, working unsafely out of necessity. Obviously, the risk was not worth it.
I had another bearing fail on my 1965 Convertible in the middle of winter when I was stationed near Ramstein Air Base, near Kaiserslautern, Germany (1980-1983). My father shipped a replacement bearing assembly from California to West Germany. I replaced it (using jack stands, this time) while sitting on a pile of snow in a Kapaun Air Station parking lot near the military post office mail room.
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

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terribleted
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by terribleted »

His flat plates may not be strong enough. They and the subframes by them look pretty compromised. I would not try to jackstand or jack on the normal rear spots as I can see in at least one of your photos that the flanges are tearing apart already. Jack and particularly jackstand might go right through these compromised areas.

I would try jacking on the vertical flange forward of these points using a piece of 2x8 with the grain perpendicular to the flanges to spread the load along the flange. Jack carefully and look for distortion of the flange. If it starts to bend stop! You could jack under the differential. This is not recommended and might damage your engine or trans mounts, but, it will work to get the car off the ground if needed. If the mounts get trashed by this they were in poor condition anyway. Plenty of these cars have been jacked from the diff with little issue. When you go to replace the steel in these rusty areas I would you would need the powertrain out of the car as well as the rear suspension out for access for cutting and welding. Once this weight is out jacking will not be as much of an issue and jacking and standing under say the rear crossmember where the rear engine mount is would work.
Last edited by terribleted on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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65CherryMonza
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by 65CherryMonza »

Thanks for the reply I'll try the triangles then maybe I'll cut some wood to fit in there and give me more surface area.

I usually have the back on ramps and the front in jack stands. But this time I need to reverse it.

Thanks for the advice it's much appreciated !

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65CherryMonza
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by 65CherryMonza »

Ya they are pretty rusty inside... It does have me worried...
To bad there isn't anything further back I could use..
terribleted wrote:His flat plates may not be strong enough. They and the subframes by them look pretty compromised.

I would try jacking on the vertical flange forward of these points using a piece of 2x4 to spread the load along the flange. Jack carefully and look for distortion of the flange. If it starts to bend stop! You could jack under the differential. This is not recommended and might damage your engine or trans mounts, but, it will work to get the car off the ground if needed. When you go to replace the steel in these rusty areas I would you would need the powertrain out of the car as well as the rear suspension for access. Once this weight is out jacking will not be as much of an issue and jacking and standing under say the rear crossmember would work.
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terribleted
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by terribleted »

65CherryMonza wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:44 pm
Ya they are pretty rusty inside... It does have me worried...
To bad there isn't anything further back I could use..
terribleted wrote:His flat plates may not be strong enough. They and the subframes by them look pretty compromised.

I would try jacking on the vertical flange forward of these points using a piece of 2x4 to spread the load along the flange. Jack carefully and look for distortion of the flange. If it starts to bend stop! You could jack under the differential. This is not recommended and might damage your engine or trans mounts, but, it will work to get the car off the ground if needed. When you go to replace the steel in these rusty areas I would you would need the powertrain out of the car as well as the rear suspension for access. Once this weight is out jacking will not be as much of an issue and jacking and standing under say the rear crossmember would work.
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Check out your engine and trans mounts. if they are already dryrotted and cracked you would likely not hurt them any more by jacking under the diff. If the are dryrotted they need to be replaced anyway.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia

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65CherryMonza
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by 65CherryMonza »

terribleted wrote:
65CherryMonza wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:44 pm
Ya they are pretty rusty inside... It does have me worried...
To bad there isn't anything further back I could use..
terribleted wrote:His flat plates may not be strong enough. They and the subframes by them look pretty compromised.

I would try jacking on the vertical flange forward of these points using a piece of 2x4 to spread the load along the flange. Jack carefully and look for distortion of the flange. If it starts to bend stop! You could jack under the differential. This is not recommended and might damage your engine or trans mounts, but, it will work to get the car off the ground if needed. When you go to replace the steel in these rusty areas I would you would need the powertrain out of the car as well as the rear suspension for access. Once this weight is out jacking will not be as much of an issue and jacking and standing under say the rear crossmember would work.
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Check out your engine and trans mounts. if they are already dryrotted and cracked you would likely not hurt them any more by jacking under the diff. If the are dryrotted they need to be replaced anyway.
I'll check that tomorrow thank you.

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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by joelsplace »

I would jack under the control arm in his situation. I've never hurt one doing that.
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bbodie52
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by bbodie52 »

Image

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Good idea! The floor jack lifting cradle is somewhat concave, and the outer portion of the rear strut rod is directly beneath the coil spring. You would be lifting under the axle by the torque control arm, with the strut rod end resting in the jack lifting cradle. There would be very little stress on the rusty body parts.

But I would still place a jack stand under the flat lifting pad inside the triangle area, as a safety backup to the floor jack.

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:link: http://www.jackpointjackstands.com/
Brad Bodie
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Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

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65CherryMonza
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Re: Jacking up the rear...?

Post by 65CherryMonza »

bbodie52 wrote:Image

Image

Good idea! The floor jack lifting cradle is somewhat concave, and the outer portion of the rear strut rod is directly beneath the coil spring. You would be lifting under the axle by the torque control arm, with the strut rod end resting in the jack lifting cradle. There would be very little stress on the rusty body parts.

But I would still place a jack stand under the flat lifting pad inside the triangle area, as a safety backup to the floor jack.

Image










:link: http://www.jackpointjackstands.com/
That seams like a good idea I will probably try that first. I will definitely have my jack stands under the car...!

Thanks bbodie52 !

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