LM drivetrain in EM

[Taterdamnsalad]

I spent some time perusing the forum looking for an answer to my question but haven’t found it yet.

I have a 62 coupe with the 80hp engine and a 3 speed. It’s dreadfully slow and I’m looking for more performance. Now I do understand anything can be done with enough time and money, “if you have to ask you can’t afford it”.
I’m trying to figure out if it is simple enough to be worth it for me.
I’d like to swap a 180/4speed into my 62. I’d like the increase in power and the IRS to replace the swing axle.
How much, if any, will bolt right in? What kind of suspension differences are there? Is it worth it?
I’m not a die-hard purist... I’d have no moral regret swapping in a v8, ford ecoboost, or anything else. I’m really just looking for a decent amount of power, better handling, and the simplest installation. Any advice, experience, or links to other posts would be greatly appreciated.

[azdave]

Plenty of people have put a late model engines into earlier models but much fewer have done the suspension swap because it is not a bolt-in solution. Engine wise, I myself would not bother with swapping in a 180 turbo but would choose the 140-4 carb.

Some old but still valid info is here.
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,391531

[bbodie52]

Welcome to the Corvair Forum!

A Fantasy Early Model Corvair...

My earlier 2015 post (shown below) and the link it provides should give you a basic answer to your question. I wish I owned the car in the pictures. It is beautifully well-done and retains the Early Model (EM ) style and appeal while successfully transplanting the rear suspension and powertrain benefits of the 1965 and later Corvair. This is the only EM Corvair I have seen modified in this way.

I think if I were going to do it I would choose a 140 hp or 110 hp 164 CID engine over the more temperamental and rare 180 hp turbocharged engine. The result would be a more-tractable daily driver that provides good performance and better gas mileage. But any Corvair engine could be fitted once you get past the complex difficulty of properly fitting a 1965-1969 suspension and powertrain to the EM body. It could even be done with the 2-speed Powerglide transaxle, if desired. The larger drum brakes could be fitted front and rear, and the 1964-1969 front suspension configuration with its front anti-sway bar could also be included. An alternator-based charging system could easily be fitted. 14 inch rims and modern tires, and perhaps front disc brakes would be great. I think I would consider the installation of Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) and a Distributorless Ignition System too to produce an ultimate EM/LM/21st Century Corvair hybrid while retaining the appearance of the EM Corvair that would look almost original and unmodified. The best of all worlds!

Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:31 pm

...Has anyone here successfully done an Independent rear suspension (IRS) conversion for a 1st gen Corvair?

The rear suspension design used in the mid-1960's Corvette Stingray was adapted to fit the 1965-1969 Corvair, to replace the somewhat controversial swing axle design that was originally copied from the Volkswagen beetle in the 1960-1964 Corvair. The Corvette utilized a transverse leaf spring (I assume because of the fiberglass body), while the Corvair used a similar design but supported the car with coil springs.

Here is a link to a Corvair Forum thread that shows an Early Model Corvair that has been modified to install a late model Corvair rear suspension. But this is not a common or simple modification!

viewtopic.php?f=176&t=349

You can see that the rear suspension mounting was entirely different in the late model Corvair. The differential was also changed to permit suspension components to attach to the bottom of the differential, and to support the half shaft design in place of the older swing-axle design. Also, late models used larger GM intermediate platform (Chevelle, Tempest, etc.) brakes.

64 Hardtop - Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:24 pm

There might be an article about this in the Communique that goes into some detail but basically it isn't all that tough. I got a '65 shell and made a jig that attached to the rear motor mount (or is it the front) by the back bumper. I also attached it to the two torque arm mounts at the front of the rear wheels. Then I cut the mounts away from the '65 and bolted them to the jig. Locating the mounts in the '64 was fairly easy because I had both cars on jack stands at the same height. I just measured up from the ground and centered the jig to locate the mounts, then I removed whatever was in the way and welded them in. Later I boxed and reinforced the whole mess to make sure it would stay put. I learned that the LM unit needs to be narrowed 1/2 inch on each side to fit the EM car properly and get the same track as the front. Also, the OD of the LM spring is too big so I used the ones from my '64 by fitting them into the LM perches. There is a bit more to it and I'd be happy to provide more detail if anyone is interested. Thanks for asking!
Ted

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=10271&p=69988&hili ... ion#p69988

http://www.corvair-efi.com/

I would like to encourage you to expand on your earlier post and tell us more about your Corvair. Some additional pictures that include the interior and engine compartment would be helpful.Your personal assessment of your mechanical skills and abilities helps a lot. Members of the Corvair Forum love to be helpful in assisting other Corvair owners with technical support and advice, but it helps if we have some understanding of your technical background and mechanical abilities, your Corvair-related knowledge, etc. Helping us to know more about you will help us to write comments to you that are tailored to your needs and experience. Knowing your specific location would also be useful, because knowing where you live can sometimes suggest possibilities.

The link below will provide you with a list of useful websites that are Corvair-related. Some of the links will lead you to an extensive technical library that will allow you to download shop manuals and other technical references in Adobe Reader format at no cost. There is also a link that will help you to locate nearby CORSA (Corvair Society of America) club chapters. While the Corvair Forum can be very helpful as you work on your Corvair, having local friends and contacts in your region who are knowledgeable about the Corvair can also be very helpful. These family-friendly CORSA chapters often offer picnics, group scenic drives, technical training and assistance, car shows, and competition events that can greatly enhance your enjoyment of Corvair ownership. You will also find a list of essential Corvair parts suppliers. Clark's Corvair Parts in Shelburne Falls, MA is the biggest and oldest Corvair supplier in the world. You will find a link that can provide you with a series of videos that amount to a tour of the Clark's Corvair Parts facilities. I think you will be amazed at the quality of the reproduction components they offer — particularly the interior carpeting and re-upholstery items. Parts suppliers such as this truly make our Corvair hobby possible.

Common and Useful Corvair Websites

viewtopic.php?f=225&t=6007

[terribleted]

A later model engine ( 1964 on, 164 cubic inch) and an early model 4 speed transmission would be your simplest upgrade. A 110 or 140HP engine would be an ideal choice IMO. I would opt for a 110 version perhaps overbored with a moderate camshaft upgrade. The 110 engine are very reliable and produces nearly the same power as the less reliable and more complex (4 carbs and associated linkage) 140HP engines, until you are at or near highway speeds. Be advised that rear suspension crossmember modifications will be needed for the 4 speed trans to clear (crossmember must be notched out for clearance at the front of the trans). You would use your existing differential or perhaps and early model standard trans diff with a different gear ratio and an early model 4 speed to avoid doing very involved modifications to the car trying to make a late model axle and suspension setup (or hybrid of the 2) fit and work. What is your current differential gear ratio? Where do you want more get up and go, stop light to stop light? If you want better off the line performance and currently have a 3.27 diff then a switch to a 3.55 diff will make a significant difference. The swap from a 145cubic inch 80HP engine to a 164cubic inch 110HP engine would also be quite significant. The 4 speed trans would just make available power more usable as you can select gears to stay in the engines power band better.

[66vairguy]

Tater ---- Some good advice given here, BUT you may find it easier to just buy a 64 Corvair with a four speed and 110HP engine and sell your car.
In 64 the engine size increased so the old 102HP became a 110HP and the swing axle suspension was updated and got good reviews for ride and handling.

Another approach is to find a complete 64 transaxle with 4 speed, subframe, and springs to install in your car. I saw one recently that needed a rebuild for $300.00. In 64 the swing axle suspension was revised to add the transverse spring and the coil spring rate was softened. Better handling and ride. You ou can install a later engine. I've seen many EM cars with the 140HP engine, but I do agree the 110HP is easier to live with and up to 3,000RPM the 110HP pulls nearly as well as the 140HP. The STOCK turbo engines are noted for not making a lot of power until the boost comes on typically when you get into 3rd and 4th were you can keep the boost up. So if your looking for go in 1st, then Ted gives good advice to suggest the 3:55 differential with a carbureted engine.

Good luck.

[Taterdamnsalad]

Wow thanks for all the replies! In all my years of using forums for advice I’ve never had so many responses, and positive ones at that.

As it was mentioned a little more info might help.
I live in Oklahoma City, my vair is a 62 700 coupe 80hp with a 3 speed. It’s a project car, current engine definitely needs a tune up, lifters are ticking and it has no power. Easily the slowest car I’ve ever driven. I have no windshield, all the trim and interior is out of the car. I bought it this way about a month ago. I have no clue on the diff ratio.
I am rather mechanically inclined, I’ve been wrenching on cars since I was 15. 3 years in auto in high school, I’ve had a few jobs at tire places and mechanic shops. I’ve done all my own work on cars, mostly Chevys from the 80s. I’ve owned 14 cars since I was 16, I’m 23 now. My fastest cars were a 2005 Mustang GT, 1994 Camaro, and my 1981 Caprice with a 455 Olds swap. All these cars had a decent amount of work in them and none of them were “slow”. The slowest one probably ran in the mid 13s in the quarter. They all had very good off the line power.
I’ve also owned other cars that were more handling oriented.
The two things I love most in a car is a big torque figure, and great handling. This is what I want in a car. I’d like to get my Corvair to somewhere I’d be happy with, if not I’ll probably fix it enough to trade it for something else that I can play with.
I know the 110 would be a decent increase from the 80, but it’s still not enough. Based on the cars weight I’d like to be in the 250-300whp Range. I feel like this may not be the platform to build a decent performing car without shelling out huge amounts of money.
Sorry, I’m kind of just thinking out loud at this point.

It seems a 110 engine and 4 speed might be the best way for me to go. What sorts of power increases might I see from a before mentioned 110 bored with a cam? Are there any other things I could do, maybe different carbs or FI? HEI swap?

I’m not interested in just buying a 64 with everything I want already, the only reason I have own is because I got it for a steal and I feel I can make something fun out of it. I’m willing to throw a few thousand at it, but I don’t want to put too much into it.
I want a driver’s car, not a show car.

[dave t]

Any Corvair engine can be swapped in. simply use the shrouds from the existing car. there are a few other parts but is rather simple. you might consider just swapping the engine as a first step.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Corvair Forum mobile app

[joelsplace]

250 at the wheels is pretty unrealistic for a Corvair unless you spend a ton of money on a turbo and run a lot of boost. Then you will have a really expensive grenade. Remember the Corvair numbers were at the crank. The 102 is a nice engine. The 3 speed is killing the fun since 1st isn't synchronized. The 4 speed is a must. Get the 80 running correctly before you give up on it. You might like it and you could sell it if you don't. The early 4 speed changed a lot through '65. The 64-65 has a larger input shaft, better synchros and is closer ratio than the earlier versions. The taller 1st gear in the 64-65 wouldn't be a good match to the 80hp engine.

[bbodie52]

If most of your driving experience is in the realm of V-8 large-displacement water-cooled American iron, you need to do a reset when it comes to driving in the Corvair world. The concept of the Corvair was modeled after the European design concept with a smaller engine — a small, economical but sporty car with independent suspension and manual transmission. The Corvair is in its own world, with its own unique style, handling, performance, etc. It is a car to be understood and enjoyed on its own terms. If you have expectations of owning a Classic Corvair that would run, handle and accelerate like the other cars you listed, you will always be somewhat disappointed.

The Corvair engine has limited displacement, a limited ability to dissipate engine heat, and a limited compression ratio that is commensurate with design expectations for a rear-engine air-cooled economy car. It is fun to drive, if you don't expect it to pull like a 350 or 400 CID V8. Performance hot rod modifications that work for the Corvair engine don't exactly parallel typical V8 techniques that might include swapping intake manifolds and carburetors, experimenting with various camshafts, etc. Changing a camshaft in a Corvair is not an easy task, since it requires a complete engine tear-down.

If you want to know something about what works in the Corvair world, you might start with a reading assignment. This book contains a great deal of performance information about the Corvair. As a teenager I read the earlier version of this book in 1970 and found it to be very valuable and informative. It is a personal favorite, and here is a recent update...
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Corv ... +to+hotrod

Many Corvair enthusiasts will remember the original version of this book. I have had a copy since about 1970...


How to Hotrod Corvair Engines by Bill Fisher (1971)

As I mentioned earlier, you might benefit for joining a local Corvair club chapter. Talking to other Corvair owners about performance might be informative to you. Perhaps some club members will let you test drive their Corvairs to get a feel for what is normal in driving a Corvair. This may help you to tailor your expectations to what is realistic in Corvair performance. The link below can help you to look up the closest CORSA club chapter...

Common and Useful Corvair Websites

viewtopic.php?f=225&t=6007



Central Oklahoma Corvair Association Midwest City OK http://www.cokcca.org/

Sample Newsletter:

Central Oklahoma Corvair Association - August-2018 - COCA Newsletter.pdf

Central Oklahoma Corvair Association - August-2018 - COCA Newsletter

(4.07 MiB) Downloaded 40 times

[terribleted]

Overbored and cammed 110HP without doing anything else crazy to it might get you a reliable 120-125HP. Keep in mind that the parts and machine work to fully rebuild a Corvair engine usually run $2500-3500. As other have suggested you really should play with the existing 80HP engine to see what it really has. Start with a compression test and if the compression numbers are under around 110PSI stop at that point it is pretty worn out. These engines run quite well on one carb but have little power when doing so. Make sure both carbs are working Rebuild them perhaps using the GM shop manual as a reference (available from Clark's Corvair Parts...you would need the 61 manual and the 62-63 supplement to fully cover your car). One test is to cover a carb opening with the engine running. If covering one side effects the engine significantly differently than covering the other there is an issue. If one covering one side does little or nothing that side is not flowing at idle. You can hold the throttle partially open and repeat this test. If there is significantly less suction on one side than the other again an issue is indicated. If and issue is found remove clean and fully adjust both carbs per the manual. Pay particular attention to cleaning all fluid passages. 80 hp cars are not fast but they are not generally particularly slow either.

[Taterdamnsalad]

Performance hot rod modifications that work for the Corvair engine don't exactly parallel typical V8 techniques that might include swapping intake manifolds and carburetors, experimenting with various camshafts, etc. Changing a camshaft in a Corvair is not an easy task, since it requires a complete engine tear-down.

I was afraid this might be the case. Perhaps I should just do a tune up on my 80, and focus on making the rest of the car look decent so I can sell it and move on.

I’ve priced out the typical tune up parts from rockauto, which I will list below. Please let me know if I’m missing something or if these prices don’t seem right.
Plugs $15
Wires $20
Cap $10
Coil $15
Belt $10
Air cleaner $10
Fuelfilter $5
Oil filter $10
Valve cover gasket $10
Oil pan gasket $10
New oil $30

I may also remove the carbs and clean them. I hate messing with multiple carbs, and I would really rather not rebuild them.
There is also a rather loud ticking noise, seemingly coming from both cylinder banks. Do I just lash the valves like I would a sbc? Or will I be needing new lifters and rods?

[terribleted]

Perform a running valve adjustment would be my plan. With engine running and valve covers off loosen each rocker nut in turn until that valve clatters, wait 30 secs and turn out some more if needed until clatter is constant. Turn in the rocker nut until clatter stops and then an additional 3/8-1/2 turn. Move to next rocker and repeat. This is a messy job unless you use some partial valve covers to catch the oil that will spill with the valve covers removed. If you are going to clean the carbs internally, they will be off the engine and disassembled, you may as well do the 4-5 basic adjustments listed in the GM shop manual. If you do not own a Gm shop manual the relevant pages for your early model Corvair can be found here http://corvair.org/chapters/corvanatics/manuals.php . Carb kits, carb base gaskets, and all your other parts can be found here Clark's Corvair Parts (Corvair.com). I would not trust Rock Auto to have correct parts myself. I recommend Bosch sparkplugs W8-AC as an ideal replacement for the original AC plugs.

[66vairguy]

Tater - My complements on being honest about what you want. I've driven big block cars, Vettes, Euro cars, etc.

As we age our interests change, we move on to other things. You have to appreciate the Corvair for what it is or you'll be disappointed. I have talked to others interested in the Corvair and sometimes I have to tell them the Corvair isn't a good fit for what they want.

BTW - if spending money and fixing a car is not a problem then the Crown V8 mid engine Corvair might be of interest. The LM cars with the 66 and later transaxle will handle a small V8 if you don't hammer them off the line.

Check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hKn8idEaZE

[bbodie52]

The excitement in this video is contagious!

You can do both, you know! My father drove and enjoyed both of these...

Brad with Dad's 1958 AC "Mongoose". All aluminum body with tubular frame, the British-made AC Ace was the basis for the Ford-powered 289 CI Shelby Cobra, built by Carroll Shelby. Dad's home-built custom utilized a 327 CI Corvette engine with solid lifters, Borg and Beck clutch, Muncie T10 transmission with modified Hurst shifter, Italian Borrani wire wheels (rear only) Goodyear Blue Streak tires, and custom hand-rubbed lacquer paint. Unlike the Shelby Cobra, this car retained oversized, finned aluminum drum brakes on all four wheels. Standard AC differential was retained. The car weighed about 2000 pounds with a full tank and did very well at local autocross events. — in San Jose, California.

Warren and son Brad Bodie in 1965, soon after he bought our Mist Blue 1965 Corsa convertible. This Corvair remained in our family from 1965 to 1995. It was later painted dark green (1969), and then red 1979)

Pregnant Tracy standing next to our 1965 Corvair Corsa convertible, parked in front of our apartment in Warner Robins, Georgia (Fall, 1973)

The same family 1965 Corvair Corsa Convertible 140hp 4x1 in Spring 1980 - Base Housing - Hanscom AFB, MA. My family and I drove this Corvair all over the USA — Biloxi, MS, Warner Robins, GA, Boston, MA, then Kaiserslautern, West Germany, back to California, Texas, Pennsylvania...

[bbodie52]

...I may also remove the carbs and clean them. I hate messing with multiple carbs, and I would really rather not rebuild them.
There is also a rather loud ticking noise, seemingly coming from both cylinder banks. Do I just lash the valves like I would a sbc? Or will I be needing new lifters and rods?

When working on the Corvair engine, you will need to develop good habits with regard to working with aluminum components. Much of the Corvair engine was manufactured using aluminum, which is a relatively soft and easily damaged material. Bolts that screw into aluminum threads should be carefully threaded by hand to avoid the possibility of cross-threading. The use of anti-seize compound to coat the threads is recommended. A torque wrench should be utilized to properly tighten all fasteners using specifications listed in the Corvair shop manual. This will help you to avoid damaging any threads in the Corvair engine.

When working with a dual carburetor engine, try not to be intimidated by two physically separated carburetors. They really function very much like a single two-barrel carburetor, but are physically separated from each other out of necessity due to the layout of the flat air cooled engine with cylinders opposed to each other. The Corvair engine layout is in many ways similar to many motorcycle engine configurations. It usually takes an experienced automobile mechanic a little adjustment time to get used to the way things are done on a motorcycle. The aluminum, air cooled flat six Corvair engine often is seen as a challenge to an automobile mechanic, who is not used to the "strange configuration" found in a Corvair.

I recommend you order all of your parts here, and do it in a single shipment to save shipping costs, if you can. No sales tax helps to offset shipping costs which aren't that much if you do a single consolidated shipment instead of many small shipments. Good quality and you can be certain they are the right items from an EXPERIENCED Corvair parts supplier!


http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=57


http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=75


http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... AIN&page=6

[Taterdamnsalad]

Thanks for all the links and great information. The last few hours I've spent looking at parts online, most cross referencing them between clarks, amazon, and rockauto. I've ran into a few problems as i'm doing this. It seems nobody carries the proper air filter for my car, between the three websites ive been on they all try to say I need two small filters, whereas my car has one large filter in the middle. They have a diagram of it on Clark's, but when I click on the part number, it directs me to a page showing only the small filters, and advising I purchase two.

Something else I'm having a problem with is a replacement starter. It seems $300 is the going rate and that just seems a little ridiculous to me.
My starter doesn't engage every time the key is turned, and makes a loud buzzing sound. Almost as if its spinning but not grabbing the flywheel.

I am reluctant to spend too much on this engine, seeing as a new flywheel, starter and full tune-up would be approaching the $1000 mark.... when I have seen used engines priced at just a few hundred.