Starter Shims???

[Crazed2881]

Ok Corvair Guys. I've seen the posts where you claim corvair starters should never need shims. So I just purchase my very first Corvair. 1964 700 with stock motor. Of course it was sold to me with a no start issue. Got it home, pulled the starter and of course, broken starter nose cone. Next, I inspected the ring gear and of course, it too had issues. All the teeth were munched up and ground down to almost nothing. So, I continue by purchasing a rebuilt Torque Converter with new ring gear and starter from California Corvair. After pulling the motor, cleaning everything up and replacing many seals while it was out, its starts great. Well, Sometimes it starts great and other times it sounds like the starter is just not connecting with the ring gear properly. It sounds as if maybe the starter is engaging the ring gear too tight ?? No grinding or seeming misengagement. The starter just makes a whinning noise as if its kicking out but not spinning the motor, like the engine is seized. Does this a time or two or three, then engages ok and starts as it should. All bellhousing bolts, flex plate bolts and starter bolts are tight and all matting surfaces cleaned. My guess is that since the ring gear has been replaced and not factory welded on to the torque converter, perhaps the starter does need shimmed??????? Please let me know what your opinions are. What else could be causing this??? I'd just like to figure this out before the cone on the starter breaks or damages the new ring gear. Thanks in advance

[terribleted]

Sounds like a bad starter solenoid or low voltage issue (not enough voltage to fully kick the solenoid). Solenoid may be sticking sometimes and not kicking out the starter gear so it can engage. Could be a cracked starter nose or a ring gear problem as well...and yes I understand that you have new parts installed. New parts can be faulty as well. Corvair starters are not shimmable. Think about how it installs. In order to shim it farther out from the ring gear it would have to move it sideways which is impossible (without grinding away some of the differential case as well as the starter mounting bolt holes) as the nose locates pretty tightly into the mounting hole in the diff.

If the starter was locking up (like a seized engine) it would go clunk and perhaps hum and that's it. Whining noise is likely the starter gear spinning but not engaged.

[bbodie52]

I have driven and worked on Corvairs since the 1960s, and in all of those years I have never heard of requirements or procedures for shimming the starter on the Corvair. I do know that Clark's Corvair Parts makes a big deal about properly installing and welding a replacement ring gear on a Corvair torque converter.

We strongly suggest you not buy the separate ring gear — this is a very specialized procedure... POWERGLIDE TORQUE CONVERTER RING GEAR — INSTALLED BY EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL ONLY. REBUILT TORQUE CONVERTERS with NEW ring gear... Professionally disassembled, cleaned, inspected & rebuilt including welding on a New Clark Ring Gear using special equipment. The PG ring gear is much narrower, only .096" across the top flat. Check yours carefully as these really wear!

I do not know anything about the quality control of torque converter rebuilds at California Corvair. Also, you could have inherited a problem with your rebuilt starter — perhaps a bad Bendix drive or a faulty solenoid that is not properly engaging the torque converter ring gear every time. Have you tried discussing the problems you are having with a technical representative at California Corvair? Did you purchase the rebuilt starter from them? Are you reusing the old solenoid from your broken starter, or did you replace the solenoid too?

I would guess that an improperly aligned and welded ring gear on your replacement torque converter could cause such problems — especially if the ring gear misalignment was only at one point on the torque converter. The engagement problems you are having may appear to be random, but the problems could coincide with the random positioning of the torque converter when you shut off the engine. A faulty Bendix drive or solenoid could also be the cause of an apparently random problem with engaging the starter drive gear.

The fact that the starter fails to engage "a time or two or three, then engages okay and starts as it should" sounds more like a problem with the Bendix drive or solenoid, and not necessarily a problem with the ring gear alignment on the torque converter. I would suggest that you discuss these problems with the vendor that sold you the Corvair components. They may suggest exchanging the replacement starter and solenoid to see if the problem goes away.

Starter Solenoid and Drive - Copy.jpg (31.87 KiB) Viewed 1236 times

The potential for a low-voltage problem causing faulty solenoid action could also be caused by a faulty ground condition. Some Corvair owners replace the negative battery cable with a standard cable that only has a single connection point. They simply bolt that cable to the car chassis and assume that the engine components will also be properly grounded via the chassis ground. The Corvair powertrain is mounted by suspending the powertrain from three rubber mounts. Those mounts (two at the transmission bracket and one at the center-rear next to the crankshaft pulley) were intended to isolate the chassis from engine vibration. However, they also isolate the engine and transaxle electrically from the chassis. It is necessary for the battery ground connection to be made to BOTH the chassis AND the engine, so that the charging system, ignition system, and starter system are all properly grounded. The ground return cable from the engine to the battery should have an equal gauge that matches the gauge of the positive cable that is connected directly to the starter solenoid. A thin 10-12gauge wire is used to connect the positive battery terminal to all other electrical components throughout the car. For that reason, a thin 10-12gauge ground cable between the chassis and the negative battery terminal is sufficient as a ground return for the car electrical systems. But the current demands of the starter motor are much greater, so the ground cable that is attached to the engine must be the equivalent of the positive cable that is attached to the starter solenoid.

[Crazed2881]

Great. Thank you so far guys. I though I'd just see the same old responses that the corvair absolutely does not need starter shims. Which I for sure understand now and won't question whether it needs them or not. It does not. As for what the issue at hand really is just yet, I do not know as I'm not with the at the moment. When I left it earlier I did find one concerning issue that must have been a problem for some time. The engine lid prop was coming down and laying on top of the positive battery terminal. I'm not sure if that could have added to the problem yet or not. When I get home I will be sure to double check everything an keep you all posted. Thanks again for all of the helpful information thus far.

[terribleted]

If the lid prop is hitting the positive post there is a good chance that the wrong battery is installed. Would the same size battery with the posts reversed to the other side (still + forward) fix the issue? If the wrong post orientation is installed this short can be an issue. Most batteries come in a normal and reversed post versions.

[bbodie52]

If you need a new battery, the odd size and shape of the EM battery box might confuse things a bit. Clark's charges quite a bit for a battery that is similar in appearance to the originals...

Part number C12541: 61-64 CAR & 61-65 FC SCRIPT BATTERY *1960 SEE C13056

Weight: 30 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 79
Price: $ 264.55

But there are some other choices that will fit, will provide better service, are locally available, and cost less. The battery information below has proven to provide a good fit in the standard early model Corvair (1961-1964) battery box.

Here is a battery tip for early model Corvairs like yours that may help you to get an affordable battery for your early Corvair. Be sure to compare the battery dimensions with the available battery space in your Corvair. The dealer catalogs and references are unlikely to tell them if this battery will fit your car...

In my EM i ran a Interstate 51 battery, might have been a 51R can't remember off the top of my head. its a honda civic batter, its small so it fits in there, but it doesnt fill in the whole space. worked perfectly fine for me. cranked everytime, never let me down

MEGA-TRON 51-R AUTOMOTIVE BATTERY 75 MONTHS 500 CCA

Get long life and premium performance with Interstate Batteries' Mega-Tron 51R. With 24-months free replacement and five-year performance, this 500 CCA automotive battery will meet or exceed your vehicle's starting requirements in any hot to moderate climate.

Sugg Retail Price: $107.95
List Price: $129.95
Dealer prices will vary

Product ID: MT-51R
Amps: 625
Cranking Amps: 625
Cold Cranking Amps: 500
Voltage: 12
Termination: A
Weight: 27.9
Width: 5.13
Length: 9.38
Height: 8.88
Plates: 24
WET/DRY: W

Here is some additional info on the use of the Interstate 51 battery...

you have to make sure your tie down is tight or it will slide side to side. or you can make some plastic pieces to wedge it into shape. but interstate are strong good batteries. when i blew the motor up i had the lights on and the interior light on for almost a hour and when i went to start it up the next day it cranked right over

It appears that the only difference between the Interstate MT-51R and the MT-51 is the location of the positive and negative battery terminals...

MEGA-TRON 51-R AUTOMOTIVE BATTERY 75 MONTHS 500 CCA
https://www.interstatebatteries.com/pro ... oryid=true


MEGA-TRON 51 AUTOMOTIVE BATTERY FIVE-YEAR PERFORMANCE 500 CCA
https://www.interstatebatteries.com/pro ... oryid=true


The correct battery appears to be the Interstate MT-51R, which places the positive terminal correctly on the right when the battery is placed in the battery area with the terminals facing the engine.

Selecting a battery with the terminals on the right side of the battery box would seem to clear the rear deck support...

[Crazed2881]

Again, thanks for all of the helpful advice. I appreciate all of you guys with so many years of corvair experience sharing your knowledge with me. So it seems a proper battery is in need but not my starter problem. The voltage tests ok at the battery and generator. Ground seems ok but still need to check the rest. I cant wait until i can feel confident turning the key isnt going to result in needing to pull the motor, again. Ill keep yall posted.
I did however just notice this battery only has 450CCA and 560CA. Any cause for concern there??

[terribleted]

not really but that one is backwards posts from what you should have...the reverse of that battery will have the + toward the outside of the car and at the front of the battery. Main wire to starter looks very small as well. Should be a larger gauge wire. Also the starter wire looks corroded. Replacing that it with a fresh 6 gauge wire like what should be there may help your starter issues.

[Crazed2881]

Ok guys. Real simple stuff, but ive gotta ask. Im going to refer to my Corvair manual in the meantime. I removed the starter and jumped it with a set of jumper cables and battery. The starter gear comes out and spins every time. The backing nuts on the solenoid seemed a little loose, so i tightened them some. I' m sure there is only one way to connect the two small wires but like i said, cant hurt to ask while i go get my book. One wire is black with yellow stripe. The other wire is purple. The two small terminals on the starter are labled "S" and "R". Now of course i connected them the way they originally came off. Thought id just double check. I dont believe if connected the wrong way, it would even work. Im hoping the loose backing nuts could have been causing my troubles. I doubt it though, they werent that loose. Again, just hoping its something super stupid causing such big problems. Its not much of a problem now, but after seeing it after i purchased it and knowing what i had to do to correct it. Its still not 100% and i know whatever it is has got to be what caused the old starter and ring gear to fail for the prior owner. I dont want to have the same problem again after all this work. Thanks again. You guys have been a great wealth of knowledge so far. I really do enjoy these air cooled Chevys. Ive always been an aircooled VW junkie. Im glad i got the Corvair!its a blast to drive.

[terribleted]

Look at the wiring diagram in your GM Corvair shop manual...if you do not have one buy one from Clark's they are worth their weight in gold. The big wire (should be purple goes to S this is what powers the solenoid. Replace the small weak main wire from battery to starter as well (you can use a 4 or 6 gauge for this...6 is stock...what you have there look like a 10 or 12 which is ALOT smaller) and see what you get. Small wire can not pass enough current to properly operate a large motor like a starter.

[bbodie52]

Left-click the image to enlarge it for better viewing or "Pan & Scan" (Click a second time for maximum enlargement)...

1964 Corvair Passenger Car Combined Schematic

From CORVAIR COMBINED WIRING SCHEMATIC DIAGRAMS

viewtopic.php?f=225&t=12968

Remember, the ground side of the battery connection MUST be the equivalent gauge of the positive wire connections (at least 6 gauge to the engine and 10 gauge to the chassis). In this illustration the wide, braided flat ground cable that was originally used in EM Corvairs provided a ground connection that was MORE THAN 6 GAUGE to both the chassis and to the engine.

...The Purple wire is to the solenoid coil winding. Inside the solenoid there is a large washer-like contact. When the solenoid pulls in far enough, the washer completes the circuit between the two LARGE terminals (BATTERY and STARTER MOTOR) on the solenoid.

The purple wire on the solenoid connects to the Start terminal. If you trace it on the full schematic diagram you will find the other end of that wire connected to the ignition switch. It is energized when you turn the key to START. The Black/Yellow wire connects from the solenoid R terminal to the ignition coil positive terminal via a 2-wire plastic connector. If you trace that wire you will see a second wire spliced (20 B/P) to the Black/Yellow wire. If you trace the 20 B/P wire you will see that it leads to a resistor wire. If you continue tracing it you will end up at the ignition switch again. This wire receives 12 VDC from the battery when the ignition key is in the ON position. So the ignition coil receives voltage from TWO SOURCES. It receives voltage from the ignition switch whenever the key is ON (so the engine can run). That voltage is reduced from 12 VDC to a nominal 7 VDC by the resistor wire. But the ignition coil also receives voltage directly from the starter solenoid (a full 12 VDC), but ONLY WHEN THE ENGINE IS BEING CRANKED BY THE STARTER. This boost voltage increases the coil voltage for a hotter spark to the spark plugs to promote easier starting of a cold engine when the engine is being cranked. As soon as the driver releases the key when the engine starts, the boost voltage from the solenoid disconnects, leaving only the lower 7 VDC from the resistor wire circuit, which keeps the engine running with a lower voltage to the coil. The lower voltage prolongs the life of the ignition points and causes the ignition coil to run cooler. The reduced spark voltage is deemed sufficient by GM engineers for normal engine operation.

[Crazed2881]

Hmmm. Once again, all helpful stuff you guys. Im not going to give up on this issue and will continue this forum. After removing and reinstalling the starter, checking all the wires, connections and grounds, the issue still remains. The wire going from the battery to the starter is the correct 6 guage. Wire ends, terminals and grounds cleaned and all connections tight. When the starter makes its whinning noise, it sometimes takes a couple bumps of the key to get it to engage. Ive checked the position of the ring gear and it is not turning when the so called miss happens. I will be swapping out the solenoid with the old one, if possible to see if the problem continues. I would normally at this point just send the starter back, but ive already had to do that when the first one i installed broke the nose cone because i was unaware that the ring gear was all messed up when i bought the car. The vendor made me pay shipping on the return, so i wont be doing that just yet. This is so frustrating. Im just glad this issue hasnt broke the cone just yet rendering the car useless, cause like i said, i do enjoy driving it. Turning the key to start it, not so much. Any other suggestion on things to look for, please feel free to chime in. Thanks again you guys!

[terribleted]

Ring gear not turning generally indicates starter is not engaging. I assume that your whining sound is the starter motor turning without being engaged. You can turn the engine with a 3/4 wrench on the crank pulley just to be sure it is not locked up, but, I doubt this is the case as I have never heard a starter whine when engaged to a locked up engine ( at least I would not call that noise a whine). Are you positive that the battery voltage is 12V or better? Try directly powering the starter solenoid. Jack rear of car and put on stands. Put shifter in neutral. You do not need the ignition on as we don't want to start the car just operate the starter. Either use a large screwdriver or other suitable steel shorting tool and gloves (shocks suck) to short at the starter between the big feed from the battery at the starter and the S post of the solenoid, or jump a piece of 10 gauge wire directly from the battery + post to the S terminal on the starter. If this engages the starter every time the solenoid is likely not the issue. If it does not solenoid is faulty or battery voltage is low. IF the solenoid is determined good from this test you have a low voltage issue likely from corrosion between the starter and the ignition switch. Most like place for this corrosion to be is at one of the 4 plugs along the way ( but could be in the wire itself). 1 plug is in the engine bay feeding the S wire to the main body wire harness. The 2nd is under the dash where the main body harness comes out of the tunnel and plugs to the dash harness. 3rd plug is at the neutral safety switch which is located on the back of the shifter.4th plug is to the back of the ignition switch ( S terminal). Could be within the ignition switch itself as well. Systematically check and clean all plug connections and look at the wires going into the plugs. If the wires are expanded or show signs of (usually green) corrosion that wire section is suspect but may function ok as long as the plug connectors are clean.

[66corsaguy]

Ok guys. Real simple stuff, but ive gotta ask. Im going to refer to my Corvair manual in the meantime. I removed the starter and jumped it with a set of jumper cables and battery. The starter gear comes out and spins every time. The backing nuts on the solenoid seemed a little loose, so i tightened them some. I' m sure there is only one way to connect the two small wires but like i said, cant hurt to ask while i go get my book. One wire is black with yellow stripe. The other wire is purple. The two small terminals on the starter are labled "S" and "R". Now of course i connected them the way they originally came off. Thought id just double check. I dont believe if connected the wrong way, it would even work. Im hoping the loose backing nuts could have been causing my troubles. I doubt it though, they werent that loose. Again, just hoping its something super stupid causing such big problems. Its not much of a problem now, but after seeing it after i purchased it and knowing what i had to do to correct it. Its still not 100% and i know whatever it is has got to be what caused the old starter and ring gear to fail for the prior owner. I dont want to have the same problem again after all this work. Thanks again. You guys have been a great wealth of knowledge so far. I really do enjoy these air cooled Chevys. Ive always been an aircooled VW junkie. Im glad i got the Corvair!its a blast to drive.

I had a lot of problems with starting a little while ago. It turned out to be the solenoid and the battery. 2 problems and I was stuck thinking just one problem. I had only tested the starter and not the solenoid. Definitely test both, two different test. And than the battery.... I brought it to the store to test they said it was good but it wasn’t cos it wouldn’t hold a charge and dropped quickly. New solenoid and New battery and my car starts right up!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Corvair Forum mobile app

[bbodie52]

There is a reason why the taillights and brake lights only need a thin 20 gauge wire to support the needed electrical current that originates from the dashboard area, but the starter solenoid gets a much thicker 12 gauge wire... the starter solenoid draws a lot of current through the solenoid windings to create the electromagnetic field necessary to move the solenoid plunger!

The strange thing is that the starter motor is not energized until the plunger moves enough to cause the plunger contact disc to close the heavy battery contacts. That same plunger motion shifts the position of the shift lever to move the drive pinion gear into position before the power is fed to the starter motor. For the motor to spin freely the plunger disc would have to move to close the electrical contacts without the pinion gear moving. If the pinion gear and shift lever were stuck, how would the solenoid plunger move to power the motor?

ANSWER............................The MESHING SPRING!

Also, it might be necessary to check for a faulty starter drive. ... If the starter engages and cranks the engine, then skips and spins freely, there are two likely causes: Misalignment of the replacement starter. The overrun clutch on the replacement starter may be malfunctioning.

If swapping solenoids fails to correct the fault, and if bypassing the ignition switch and wiring with a remote starter switch also does not correct the problem, perhaps a faulty drive and OVERRUNNING CLUTCH may be where the starter gremlin is residing!

As mentioned above, a voltage drop can be caused by electrical resistance from a faulty wire or corroded/burned contacts in any of the four electrical connectors between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid.

The solenoid itself could be faulty, or there could be bad contacts inside the ignition switch or inside the neutral safety switch. Shorting between the positive cable and the "S" terminal on the solenoid will bypass all of those wires, switches, and connectors to provide a direct battery voltage connection to the solenoid windings. The use of a good remote starter switch (a handy tool) like the one pictured below accomplishes the same thing. (Did you also check to ensure a direct connection between the battery negative terminal and the engine via a 6 gauge cable?)



The whole process of troubleshooting and fault isolation involves a systematic elimination of different possibilities throughout the system, until the actual cause is identified and eliminated.

Bad Starter Symptoms: Why Won't My Car Start?

Diagnosing a Problem With a Starter: What Noise Does It Make?

• "I hear a whirring sound."
• "It's a buzzing sound."
• "I hear a loud click."
• "It's more like a grinding noise."
• "I don't hear anything!"
• "My headlights don't work."
• "Cranking the car makes my headlights dim or go out."
• "My headlights are fine, but my car still won't start."

"I Just Hear A Whirring Sound."

Car starter motors use a small device called an overrunning clutch, or one-way clutch. When you turn the ignition key to the run position, the starter solenoid interlocks the starter's pinion gear with the flywheel on the engine to rotate the engine at "cranking speed". Once the engine starts and exceeds cranking speed, the overrunning clutch releases the pinion gear from the flywheel.

However, if the solenoid mechanism is too worn to engage the flywheel, all you'll hear is a swishing sound as the armature in the starter spins all by itself, unable to crank the engine to a start. So this sound may indicate that the solenoid in the starter is worn out.

https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/bad_starter_symtpoms

[Crazed2881]

Again, more great info you guys. Even if it doesn't help me correct this situation, I am retaining all it as I'm sure it'll be of use for me some day down the road, even if it's not my Corvair.
The starter solenoid operation and battery voltage check out ok. My next task is to check fr any corrosion that may be hiding in any wire harnesses in the ignition to starter system. I'll keep you posted. I'm not giving up until I can comfortably turn my key without cringing. I'm anxious to know what is causing this. I'll be surprised if it resides with a bad wire connection.