Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Replacement. Now with more pics!

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lostboy
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Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Replacement. Now with more pics!

Unread post by lostboy » Thu May 25, 2017 5:51 am

Ok guys, its spring and so its the perfect time for something to go awry. I started to hear a small rattling last summer but it was very feint and went away when I would touch the clutch pedal. As of a few weeks ago, the noise has gotten louder but still goes away with even the slightest touch of the pedal. To me, it sounds like a throw out bearing, but I imagine that my 61 with 59k on it probably has a loose flywheel. Either way the repair is to yank the trans, and when i do it i will replace everything. I would like to put this off until next winter as i want to drive the car. The noise has settled at a certain level and not gotten any worse in 1500 miles. What are your thoughts?
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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by cnicol » Thu May 25, 2017 6:30 am

Correct analysis. Flywheel noise stops when you press the clutch pedal. Throw out bearing starts when you push the pedal.

My advice would be to spend a Saturday and repair it. When the flywheel is loose, it becomes more and more out of round and out of balance. The out of round part can break the starter nose at any time leading to additional expense and a tow. Better to nip this one in the bud IMO.
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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu May 25, 2017 8:08 am

lostboy wrote:Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:57 am

I've been creeping for a while, but on Saturday I finally purchased a 1961 (not a Monza) 700 sedan. I'm a mechanic by trade, with a background in custom exhaust and welding so hopefully I can get this bad boy driving... I live in east Brunswick [NJ], however I spend most of my day (at work) in Edison...
I looked back into your previous posts to try to identify your location and to get more details about your mechanical background and about your Corvair. I pulled the above quotes from those entries to help "fill in the blanks".

:wrench: If you have never pulled the powertrain from a Corvair before it may take you a little longer. Unless you have access to a special dolly, most people perform the job using a hydraulic floor jack and a piece of plywood to protect the underside of the powertrain as you lower it from the car. It is something of a balancing act as you carefully locate the correct lifting point under the clutch housing and oil pan area. I have attached a GM publication Corvair and Corvair 95 Power Train Removal & Installation that you should review to supplement the information found in the factory shop manual. The picture at the bottom of page 10 should give you an idea of where you would find the balance point. Once you position your jack and have disconnected all of the hardware around the perimeter of the powertrain and in the engine compartment, you can remove the three nuts that attach the front and rear of the powertrain to the mounting points. As you slowly begin to lower the transaxle, you can monitor whether or not it is coming down evenly from all three points. This can help you to judge whether or not you need to reposition the jack. If you determine that an adjustment is needed you can raise the powertrain back up, temporarily reinstall the three nuts, reposition the jack, and then try again.

Did you ever locate and join a local CORSA club chapter in New Jersey? If you are a member of a local club you might be able to recruit some helpers to assist you with replacing your clutch. Some experienced assistants can go a long way in helping to speed things along and with performing a safer job.

Once the powertrain has been lowered the engine can be positioned on some two by fours to support the load. The next significant task is to separate the transaxle from the engine. The transaxle is quite heavy, and it is important that the alignment between the differential face and the clutch housing be maintained as you separate them. The input shaft that links the transmission with the clutch disc is about 2 feet long, and it is splined at both ends. The larger spline is embedded in the clutch disc and pilot bushing. As you pull the two components apart the small splined end tends to pull free from the transmission, which leaves a 2 foot rod protruding from the clutch back into the transaxle. I would suggest using the floor jack to support the weight under the differential, and have your assistant(s) help you to maintain the alignment between the two components as you withdraw the transaxle from the engine. As the gap between the two opens up you may be able to reach in and grasp the input shaft and pull it free from the clutch disc. The concern here is to avoid any lateral tension on the long steel shaft that might be caused by misalignment between the transaxle and the engine. The concern also is to avoid not only damage to the input shaft, but any lateral tension that might be applied by it to the "snout" that protrudes from the differential and provides a support for the throw out bearing. That component is made of a steel casting that has been machined. Lateral tension on it from the input shaft could cause it to crack or fracture. Since it is installed from the inside of the differential, replacing it means dismantling the differential! It is certainly preferable to carefully separate the two components in avoid any damage that might be incurred if the heavy transaxle were to shift position and apply lateral pressure via the long input shaft.

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Once the two major components have been separated you will have full access to the clutch assembly. You should plan on replacing the seals in the differential "snout"and in the clutch housing that seal around the crankshaft. The throw out bearing and pilot bushing as well as the worn pressure plate and clutch disc, and of course the flywheel will all likely be replaced due to age and wear. As shown in the Clark's Corvair Parts catalog pages below you have several options with regard to replacing the flywheel. In addition to a standard configuration riveted flywheel, they also offer a solid flywheel and a bolted flywheel. I do not have experience with anything other than the standard flywheel, and perhaps others here on the Corvair forum could recommend the best option. You may also want to consider replacing the clutch cable and inspecting and lubricating the clutch cable pulleys would be recommended (especially if this is not been done in the past). A broken clutch cable can be a real "show stopper", and it usually gives no warning before it snaps. The pulleys can also deteriorate with age.

How quickly your old flywheel deteriorates depends, to some extent, on your driving habits and the mileage you anticipate accumulating before you replace the clutch. A loose flywheel might also increase stress on the starter ring gear that is welded to the pressure plate. A broken weld can occur, and that stress might damage the starter housing, which is a common problem as shown in the photograph below. I doubt that the loose rivets that hold the flywheel together would cause any damage to the "snout" that protrudes from the differential. I would recommend pricing and gathering the replacement clutch components that you will need so that you have them on hand and ready to go. If you can gather a few friends to assist you in replacing the clutch perhaps you can turn it into something of a social event. Unless you have a heated garage, replacing the clutch during a New Jersey winter in a cold garage might not be something you would look forward to. Some experienced assistants can help you get the job done during a warmer climate and the overall project could be accomplished quickly and safely. I hope that the technical references I have attached are helpful for you.

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:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... N&page=109
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Attachments
Replacing a Corvair Clutch Cable (1964 Corvair).pdf
Replacing a Corvair Clutch Cable (1964 Corvair)
(2.25 MiB) Downloaded 5 times
Corvair and Corvair 95 Power Train Removal & Installation.pdf
Corvair and Corvair 95 Power Train Removal & Installation
(3.35 MiB) Downloaded 8 times
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6 - Power Train.pdf
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6 - Power Train
(704.51 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6a - Engine.pdf
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6a - Engine
(3.53 MiB) Downloaded 3 times
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6b - Clutch.pdf
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6b - Clutch
(459.77 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Thu May 25, 2017 2:43 pm

Thanks bbodie. I have a full service manual for the car. I've been a professional mechanic for 13 years. I'm not afraid of anything and can usually figure things out fairly easily but no one is immune to a mistake or learning something new. My real concern is that if I'm going to start replacing things, I might be opening up the 3 speed as my 2nd gear synchro has some issues on downshift on hot days. So this could become quite a big project. I've been daily driving the car when the weather is decent and although I try not to kill it, I'm in NJ, it's tough to keep up with traffic here without some spirited driving. Is there a trick to verify the flywheel is the culprit without separating the engine?

The closest corsa chapter is quite some distance from me.


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu May 25, 2017 2:57 pm

The rattling sound you hear with the engine idling in neutral is almost certainly lose rivets in the flywheel. The fact that the rattling sound disappears the moment the clutch pedal is depressed slightly (which brings the throw out bearing into contact with the pressure plate diaphragm spring) generally is considered to confirm the diagnosis. Contact with the throw out bearing acts as a dampener which generally silences the rattling sound produced by the loose flywheel rivets.
The closest corsa chapter is quite some distance from me.
Have you checked out The Delaware Valley Corvair Club? Their website indicates that they meet at the Liberty 2 Diner, which appears to be about 37 miles southwest of East Brunswick. The information on their website, with regard to the next meeting location and date, is badly out of date. You might want to browse the website and contact them to determine their current meeting date and location. The value of any Corvair club depends entirely on the nature of the members. Some clubs are extremely active, while others have almost disappeared. I'm not sure what you would find if you contact the Delaware Valley Corvair Club, but it may be worth the effort. You may find that there are quite a few Corvair enthusiasts that are less than 40 miles away.

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:link: http://delvalvairs.com/
Facebook :link: https://www.facebook.com/DelValVairs/
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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Thu May 25, 2017 4:09 pm

bbodie52 wrote:The rattling sound you hear with the engine idling in neutral is almost certainly lose rivets in the flywheel. The fact that the rattling sound disappears the moment the clutch pedal is depressed slightly (which brings the throw out bearing into contact with the pressure plate diaphragm spring) generally is considered to confirm the diagnosis. Contact with the throw out bearing acts as a dampener which generally silences the rattling sound produced by the loose flywheel rivets.
The closest corsa chapter is quite some distance from me.
Have you checked out The Delaware Valley Corvair Club? Their website indicates that they meet at the Liberty 2 Diner, which appears to be about 37 miles southwest of East Brunswick. The information on their website, with regard to the next meeting location and date, is badly out of date. You might want to browse the website and contact them to determine their current meeting date and location. The value of any Corvair club depends entirely on the nature of the members. Some clubs are extremely active, while others have almost disappeared. I'm not sure what you would find if you contact the Delaware Valley Corvair Club, but it may be worth the effort. You may find that there are quite a few Corvair enthusiasts that are less than 40 miles away.

Image

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:link: http://delvalvairs.com/
Facebook :link: https://www.facebook.com/DelValVairs/
I will call, or email. Couldn't hurt. I'm sure I'll be pulling this one off by myself, which is fine. I have friends who would love to help. Thanks for the advice and time, I really appreciate it.


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Fri May 26, 2017 6:01 am

Bbodie, any idea what the necessary parts are to do this job? I wasn't planing on replacing the disk or p-plate as I have no slipping, but I don't know how it will bed into a new flywheel. Obviously the throwout bearing will get changed. The clutch cable is good, I checked all that when I replaced the floors and parts of the tunnel. Is it advised to use the clarks one piece flywheel or the bolted one? Thanks for the advice.


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by azdave » Fri May 26, 2017 6:51 am

I agree with the others. The issue you describe sounds exactly like loose flywheel rivets. A throwout bearing would be quiet when the clutch is out and noisy when you touch the clutch pedal. You describe the opposite. How long will if drive like that? Could be years, could be days. As it gets worse you will risk damaging the ring gear and breaking off the starter nose.

Don't use the one-piece flywheel. Get a bolted or hot riveted unit.

Read about the reasons not to use a solid flywheel here. Note that "Corventure Dave" posted in that thread and he sells some high quality rebuilt flywheels.
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 274,page=1

Here is another good read about loose flywheel rivets.
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,604060

Another...
viewtopic.php?t=5635
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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Fri May 26, 2017 11:02 am

azdave wrote:I agree with the others. The issue you describe sounds exactly like loose flywheel rivets. A throwout bearing would be quiet when the clutch is out and noisy when you touch the clutch pedal. You describe the opposite. How long will if drive like that? Could be years, could be days. As it gets worse you will risk damaging the ring gear and breaking off the starter nose.

Don't use the one-piece flywheel. Get a bolted or hot riveted unit.

Read about the reasons not to use a solid flywheel here. Note that "Corventure Dave" posted in that thread and he sells some high quality rebuilt flywheels.
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 274,page=1

Here is another good read about loose flywheel rivets.
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,604060

Another...
viewtopic.php?t=5635
That first one was a good read. Interesting that Clarks doesn't mention that in the catalog. They seem so thorough. Being a 61, my engine doesn't have a harmonic balancer so I assume even more so it's important for the flywheel to absorb vibration. Now I have to decide on a hot riveted or govair flywheel.


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Sat May 27, 2017 7:10 am

I'm going to order the DALE wheel, throwout bearing and pilot. I dont know which gaskets if any will need to be replaced. Obviously, being accustomed to working on newer cars, I order parts as I go unless it's something I'm familiar with. Does anyone have a definitive list of what I should have on hand? Thanks again.


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sat May 27, 2017 8:33 am

There are a lot of variables involved, including driving habits, accumulated mileage, possible leaks causing oil contamination, etc. You may choose to wait until the clutch is actually exposed so that you can perform a thorough inspection. Many components will not be available at local auto parts stores. If you choose to order everything you need, once you have complete list, from a source like Clark's Corvair Parts, you will generally save money in shipping costs by consolidating all of your needs into a single shipment. Many small shipments via USPS, UPS, etc. can add up. One or two bulk shipments can save significant money.

Considering the amount of work involved in gaining access to the clutch assembly, it is usually a good idea to replace the oil seals around the input shaft and crankshaft. The throw out bearing and pilot bushing may also be worn. The pressure plate can show wear patterns on the friction surface, and can also show abnormal wear on the starter ring gear. You should also look for signs of broken welds that secure the ring gear to the pressure plate. The clutch disc may also show signs of excessive wear or oil saturation on the friction surfaces. If you expect to complete the entire job in one day you would have to order your parts in advance. But if you are willing to wait for parts delivery, and then complete the job later you may save money by not ordering parts that turn out to be not needed.

Be sure to check the starter drive gear area for cracks in the housing. I removed a starter one time, and actually had the nose casting of the starter fall off and down into the clutch housing! The piece had been cracked but remained in place until I pulled the starter. Because this chunk of metal fell down into the clutch housing and was inaccessible, I had to go through the process of separating (partially) the engine from the differential to create enough gap for the piece to fall out from the bottom. In any case, broken starter housings are a common vulnerability in Corvair starters. The probability of this occurring can be aggravated by loose flywheel rivets or a broken weld on the ring gear, which can place abnormal stress on the starter drive components.

Image

Corvair Underground posted a listing for the Dale flywheels, indicating the following…
DALE FLYWHEELS HAVE RETURNED!


Image


For the past 30 years we've been proud to sell Dale Brand bolted flywheels. But Dale Manufacturing has discontinued this quality product as of March 2010.

HUGE NEWS BREAK! - On Friday Dec. 10th 2010 Dave Langsather (founder and owner of Dale Manufacturing) sold all tooling, fixtures, design and materials to Corvair Underground. In addition Lon Wall received training from Dave on how to make a Dale flywheel.

There was a lot to learn - including many secrets and techniques that have not been made public. I was surprised just exactly what all went into making a Dale flywheel. It's an honor to be asked to carry on the tradition! - Lon

Flywheels have been a critical component in all manual transmission Corvairs since day one. The original flywheels are of a 3 part riveted design. These soft rivets start to fail very early on. As the rivets fail you will get rattling and vibration from the clutch. If left to deteriorate you can end up with broken starter noses, wiped out input shaft seals and pilot bushings.

If left to get even worse you can destroy the front pinion bearing in your differential, which will destroy the differential and then contaminate the transmission with metal particles. Let it go long enough and you can even crack and break your crankshaft.

We believe that, had the Corvair come with a better flywheel, over 75% of all big ticket repairs in Corvairs could have been eliminated. That would have made the Corvair a nearly perfect machine.

The fixtures and tooling are now set up and ready at the Underground! That means an accuracy and a quality you will find nowhere else - and - it means a flywheel that will NEVER come loose.

These flywheels will be referred to as GoVair Dale Style flywheels. Why not just call them Dale flywheels? Because even though we hope to turn out a product almost identical to the old ones, every one of the 4700+ flywheels done by Dale were all rebuilt by Dave Langsather himself. It just wouldn't seem right to simply call them Dale's!

Doing a great job on a flywheel is a lot more complicated than just knocking the rivets out and bolting it together.

If you're doing a clutch job look over your flywheel - If it's an original riveted one then REPLACE IT, with one of our GoVair Dale-Style bolted flywheels! Avoid multiple costly problems down the road!

GoVair Dale Style Flywheels

1960-63 (Flat face) $199.50 core charge $20.00

1964-69 (Stepped face) $179.50 plus $30.00 core
:link: http://www.corvairunderground.com/flywheels.htm
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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Sat May 27, 2017 8:51 am

bbodie52 wrote:There are a lot of variables involved, including driving habits, accumulated mileage, possible leaks causing oil contamination, etc. You may choose to wait until the clutch is actually exposed so that you can perform a thorough inspection. Many components will not be available at local auto parts stores. If you choose to order everything you need, once you have complete list, from a source like Clark's Corvair Parts, you will generally save money in shipping costs by consolidating all of your needs into a single shipment. Many small shipments via USPS, UPS, etc. can add up. One or two bulk shipments can save significant money.

Considering the amount of work involved in gaining access to the clutch assembly, it is usually a good idea to replace the oil seals around the input shaft and crankshaft. The throw out bearing and pilot bushing may also be worn. The pressure plate can show wear patterns on the friction surface, and can also show abnormal wear on the starter ring gear. You should also look for signs of broken welds that secure the ring gear to the pressure plate. The clutch disc may also show signs of excessive wear or oil saturation on the friction surfaces. If you expect to complete the entire job in one day you would have to order your parts in advance. But if you are willing to wait for parts delivery, and then complete the job later you may save money by not ordering parts that turn out to be not needed.

Be sure to check the starter drive gear area for cracks in the housing. I removed a starter one time, and actually had the nose casting of the starter fall off and down into the clutch housing! The piece had been cracked but remained in place until I pulled the starter. Because this chunk of metal fell down into the clutch housing and was inaccessible, I had to go through the process of separating (partially) the engine from the differential to create enough gap for the piece to fall out from the bottom. In any case, broken starter housings are a common vulnerability in Corvair starters. The probability of this occurring can be aggravated by loose flywheel rivets or a broken weld on the ring gear, which can place abnormal stress on the starter drive components.

Image

Corvair Underground recently posted a listing for the Dale flywheels, indicating the following…
DALE FLYWHEELS HAVE RETURNED!

For the past 30 years we've been proud to sell Dale Brand bolted flywheels. But Dale Manufacturing has discontinued this quality product as of March 2010.

HUGE NEWS BREAK! - On Friday Dec. 10th 2010 Dave Langsather (founder and owner of Dale Manufacturing) sold all tooling, fixtures, design and materials to Corvair Underground. In addition Lon Wall received training from Dave on how to make a Dale flywheel.

There was a lot to learn - including many secrets and techniques that have not been made public. I was surprised just exactly what all went into making a Dale flywheel. It's an honor to be asked to carry on the tradition! - Lon

Flywheels have been a critical component in all manual transmission Corvairs since day one. The original flywheels are of a 3 part riveted design. These soft rivets start to fail very early on. As the rivets fail you will get rattling and vibration from the clutch. If left to deteriorate you can end up with broken starter noses, wiped out input shaft seals and pilot bushings.

If left to get even worse you can destroy the front pinion bearing in your differential, which will destroy the differential and then contaminate the transmission with metal particles. Let it go long enough and you can even crack and break your crankshaft.

We believe that, had the Corvair come with a better flywheel, over 75% of all big ticket repairs in Corvairs could have been eliminated. That would have made the Corvair a nearly perfect machine.

The fixtures and tooling are now set up and ready at the Underground! That means an accuracy and a quality you will find nowhere else - and - it means a flywheel that will NEVER come loose.

These flywheels will be referred to as GoVair Dale Style flywheels. Why not just call them Dale flywheels? Because even though we hope to turn out a product almost identical to the old ones, every one of the 4700+ flywheels done by Dale were all rebuilt by Dave Langsather himself. It just wouldn't seem right to simply call them Dale's!
:link: http://www.corvairunderground.com/flywheels.htm
I suppose I should just pull it apart first. I read that article the other day. What is your opinion of the corvair underground dale flywheel vs the clarks hot riveted one? My starter is a new reman. It's the first thing I replaced because the one that was on the car had the armature seized from sitting.

I assume the 50k on this car is original. It sat for a very long time and I'm sure that has a lot to do with it loosening up once I started using it everyday.

This is why I love this forum, it's not the work that I am worried about, it's things like the advice not to get a solid flywheel that are gold. Thanks again guys.


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by Danny Joe » Sun May 28, 2017 5:28 am

Also, there are some that recommend NOT using Viton seals for rotating parts such as crankshafts and input shafts.
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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Sun May 28, 2017 6:40 am

Image

Well, I started disconnecting things. I don't have the time today to get fully into it today but tomorrow the real fun begins. I'll post progress here as I go.


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Mon May 29, 2017 7:32 am

Everything is disconnected only thing left are the mounts. I'll be actually dropping it out later when I have an extra set of hands on deck. In the meantime... here's a time out video brought to you by vintage AC tools.

https://youtu.be/uw80j6Kk0EA


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Re: Clutch Noise (Flywheel) Safe to drive?

Unread post by lostboy » Mon May 29, 2017 5:43 pm

I'm so happy I decided to do this now and not wait. This flywheel and clutch are beyond screwed. Thanks again guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STliDMZuz_w


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