Water/Meth Injection...

All Models and Years
User avatar
acarlson
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Dahlonega, GA

Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by acarlson » Wed May 17, 2017 4:04 pm

As an exercise while I am waiting for my crank and head work to be completed, I am designing an injection system for my turbo. I'm needing some opinions on a couple of things.

1. Where to put the injector ? Only 2 places really - before the carb throttle body or on the intake crossover tube. I'd have to fabricate something on the carb side but I'm looking at something like this for the crossover: https://prometh.com/products/copy-of-mi ... 7154401475 - this would replace the turbo outlet hose.

2. I'm considering a 3 psi pressure switch with a 1.5 psi dead band. The injector would trigger at a 3 psi boost and continue running as long as the boost was above 1.5 psi. Is 3 psi too high a starting point ? I could go with a 2 psi set point and a 0 psi dead band. I think I could run below 2 psi boost without detonation problems.

Let me know your thoughts on this -

Alec
1965 Regal Red Corsa 4 Speed Turbo Convertible

notched
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by notched » Wed May 17, 2017 7:44 pm

I have my nozzle on the discharge of the turbocharger right before the inlet to the crossover. I found the best atomization there.
Mine uses a Snow controller. I adjust the turn on point to be right before the point where I would typically experience pinging. During this I monitor the air fuel ratio. Once I am confident I am safe as far as fuel I will try bumping the timing a little at a time.
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

User avatar
thewolfe
Corvair of the Month
Corvair of the Month
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:01 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by thewolfe » Thu May 18, 2017 9:10 am

My nozzle is also at the turbo outlet. Using a coolingmist pump and solenoid valve, devils own nozzle, and Nason switch set to come on around 7 psi. There's no need to turn your water on at 3 unless you're having detonation issues there in which case you have other problems because it shouldn't be pinging at that low boost. Are you planning on putting on a bigger carb? If not then water injection is probably a waste of money.
Nate Wolfe
65 corsa 180

User avatar
acarlson
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Dahlonega, GA

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by acarlson » Thu May 18, 2017 9:50 am

Initially I'm going to run the Carter and see how it performs. The turbo has never worked (DOA when I bought the Corsa) - so I don't know what the max boost is for a stock engine. I thought it was 5 but if your set point is 7 I'll have to rethink my setting it to 3. I'm using a Snows switch - other parts are TBD.
1965 Regal Red Corsa 4 Speed Turbo Convertible

User avatar
thewolfe
Corvair of the Month
Corvair of the Month
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:01 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by thewolfe » Thu May 18, 2017 10:49 am

When I was completely stock(minus upgraded pistons), 8 psi was about the max I saw. Switching to a 64 exhaust turbine and housing got me around 10. Putting a weber dcoe40 and heavily modified 95 hp heads in got me 20+ and a bunch of pinging which is dangerous. I installed the water injection before putting on the weber then promptly added a waste gate after seeing how difficult it was to regulate the boost with my right foot.
Last edited by thewolfe on Thu May 18, 2017 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nate Wolfe
65 corsa 180

notched
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by notched » Thu May 18, 2017 11:59 am

I had the YH and was seeing 11-12 psi with the F flow/B flow turbine. But also have 140 exhaust tubes, manifolds and oversized exhaust as well as a straight through muffler.
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

AZScott
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:57 am
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by AZScott » Mon May 22, 2017 6:29 pm

Interesting posts guys. I too have a turbo in the build phase. I have larger full fin (Auto Bohn 3 5/8”) barrels, a Otto 20 cam, and hopped up turbo, but staying with the Carter YH carb for now. I am wondering what compression ratio you are running? I am thinking I need to be at 8 to 1. I am a little scared about running modern 91 octane premium in my setup. Like I said, still in the planning/building phase but instead of a waistgate or water injection, was thinking of a MSD 6BTM spark control box. Would be curious as to your thoughts.
63 Monza Coupe (164-4 carb)
64 Spyder Convertable
62 MGA Roadster
74 Norton Commando
69 Triumph Bonneville

User avatar
acarlson
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Dahlonega, GA

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by acarlson » Tue May 23, 2017 3:53 am

I have almost the same setup in my build - Clarks full fin cylinders, Sealed Power forged pistons, OTTO-20 cam, new balanced rods and pistons, Clevite bearings, all new head components - the list goes on. I decided to go with the stock bore rather then an over-bore - mainly because I didn't want to increase the compression. I'm building a driver, not something I intend to race. However, when I dismantled the engine I discovered that one of the heads had been milled and ported - the other was stock. Rather then leave it that way I'm having the stock head machined to match the other. That may increase my compression - the guy working on my heads will let me know what the final compression is. A wastegate would be tough to install. There's not a lot of room in the exhaust system and it would require significant reworking of the pipes. The injection system is pretty easy to integrate and you can buy the parts a lot cheaper then buying a kit. If you're interested I can send you what my plan is - I haven't bought anything yet - my engine crank is in South Carolina (my engine pieces are in Georgia). However I have narrowed the injection parts list down to specific parts and vendors. Let me know if interested.

Alec
1965 Regal Red Corsa 4 Speed Turbo Convertible

notched
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by notched » Tue May 23, 2017 5:05 am

AZScott wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 6:29 pm
Interesting posts guys. I too have a turbo in the build phase. I have larger full fin (Auto Bohn 3 5/8”) barrels, a Otto 20 cam, and hopped up turbo, but staying with the Carter YH carb for now. I am wondering what compression ratio you are running? I am thinking I need to be at 8 to 1. I am a little scared about running modern 91 octane premium in my setup. Like I said, still in the planning/building phase but instead of a waistgate or water injection, was thinking of a MSD 6BTM spark control box. Would be curious as to your thoughts.
The BTM units do work but are rather out dated. From my own experience with them you should peel the sticker off the control knob and set the amount of retard by applying regulated shop air to the boost sensing line to duplicate how much boost you will be running while also watching the timing mark with a timing light to make sure you are getting the correct amount of retard. I found that the numbers on the knobs rarely correspond to the amount of actual retard you get. Also mount the knob outside of the engine compartment so you aren't tempted to mess with it. Seen quite a few guys blow their engines up playing with the amount of retard.
Did you do the calculations to figure out what your compression is going to be? You do realize that running the YH is going to restrict it so any modifications you performed will all be for naught? I personally would look into a larger carburetor and adding a waste gate.
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

notched
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by notched » Tue May 23, 2017 5:15 am

There is plenty of room for a waste gate. Here is mine. If you are modifying for performance then I will be the first to tell you that the biggest restriction to making power is the Carter YH.
Attachments
IMG_8446.JPG
IMG_5052.jpg
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

User avatar
acarlson
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Dahlonega, GA

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by acarlson » Tue May 23, 2017 5:59 am

Notched,

Nice fabrication / mods to the exhaust system !! :clap:

That's more work then I can handle - but that's just me. However, if I ever decide to pull the trigger on a wastgate, I now know who to get pointers from. :tu:

Alec
1965 Regal Red Corsa 4 Speed Turbo Convertible

User avatar
thewolfe
Corvair of the Month
Corvair of the Month
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:01 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by thewolfe » Tue May 23, 2017 7:28 am

If you put on a bigger carb than the yh then you absolutely need a waste gate. Unless you like a blown up motor. No boost retard or water injection will save you from over boosting. You can put in a weber and choke it down to not allow too much boost but you may as well just keep the yh in there if you're going to do that. Lee's exhaust is pretty sweet but you can build a simpler waste gate setup or mount one to the stock crossover pipe. Here's the one I built for my car that looks stockish but is made with larger diameter pipe to mate up to 140 manifolds and has all mandrel bends.
xover.jpg
Nate Wolfe
65 corsa 180

User avatar
acarlson
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Dahlonega, GA

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by acarlson » Tue May 23, 2017 9:20 am

I'm going to keep the Carter. I'm happy to run mostly stock and keep the engine in one piece.
1965 Regal Red Corsa 4 Speed Turbo Convertible

AZScott
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:57 am
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by AZScott » Tue May 23, 2017 10:26 am

thewolf, nice setup , and more within my ability to fabricate. What waistgate are you using? (I am not the familiar with them) Do you have this working in your car now?,.. and are you happy with how it works?
63 Monza Coupe (164-4 carb)
64 Spyder Convertable
62 MGA Roadster
74 Norton Commando
69 Triumph Bonneville

notched
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Southern New Jersey

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by notched » Tue May 23, 2017 11:09 am

I run a Tial MVR 44 but if you are planning on staying with stock turbo or E flow you would probably be fine with the smaller MVR 38
1966 Corsa turbo
1969 Monza convertible
1987 Buick Grand National

User avatar
acarlson
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Dahlonega, GA

Re: Water/Meth Injection...

Unread post by acarlson » Tue May 23, 2017 11:59 am

notched wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 7:44 pm
...During this I monitor the air fuel ratio. Once I am confident I am safe as far as fuel I will try bumping the timing a little at a time.
Speaking of monitoring the air/fuel mix, do you have a gauge installed in your dash and an O2 sensor permanently mounted ?
If so, did you use a one wire or 4 wire O2 sensor and where did you install the bung ?
1965 Regal Red Corsa 4 Speed Turbo Convertible

Post Reply

Return to “Ask your Mechanical Questions here”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest