67 Won't Idle

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God.favored
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67 Won't Idle

Unread post by God.favored » Sun May 14, 2017 2:18 am

Hey guys, I have a 67 that has a frankensteined 140 4 speed that I pulled from a 65.

The car idled ok, but was seriously lacking power, and had a huge acceleration lag. I figured I needed accelerator pumps, then it started randomly dying on me, or not idling at a stop light once the car warmed up so I just went ahead and bought the carb kits and rebuilt the carbs. When I stuck this motor in originally I didn't know the proper procedure for setting up the carb linkages on these 140 motors so when I re-installed the carbs I found the tech manual and adjusted according to the book and man alive it is so much better! I also found that it runs best so far with the recomended starting point on the air-fuel screw (gently screw it all the way in and back it off 2.5 turns) . I have a sync tool and synced the carbs, and it ran great for a bit but then started running rough and wouldn't idle at all. by the time I brought the idle up high enough to keep it running it was ready to take off, so I started over with the air-fuel, but still found it ran best at the suggested starting point (plus or minus a little on each one to get it balanced)

So then I moved on to timing, I understand that for the 140 it should be set somewhere around 18* Mine was reading in at 12 (which i know i set to 18 before so it must've moved a bit) brought the timing up to 18* and it seemed to run much better at first, but ran very bad at higher rpm, then it stopped idling right again, will idle great until it warms up then it dies after leaving it unattended for more than 30 seconds. with the timing light on and reving up the car you can see the mechanical advance works, also with rpm you can watch the vacuum advance articulate. My guess is that I may have the wrong distributor with the wrong advance curve in the car, anyone know what I should have? Am I right thinking that this may sound timing related? I have no idea what cam is in the motor, I can get the head numbers and distributor numbers tomorrow afternoon if it helps.

Has anyone tried out the California Corvair's HEI setup? (http://californiacorvairparts.com/index ... er=product) Wondering how they work for the different timing advance curves that the different motors require with just the one distributor.

Not wanting to sink too much money into this engine yet because I have a swap idea I'm working on, but I would like it to run right and there could always be another corvair it may go into.

**By the way flexes hoses=very bad! im not driving the car around yet, and I already ordered the proper original steel lines from clarks :)
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1967 140 4 Speed
1963 Monza 900 Spyder

SeamusNZ
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by SeamusNZ » Sun May 14, 2017 3:22 am

Hi there from New Zealand,

A couple of things. I have an HEI distributor on my '62 Monza. No issues whatsoever. Works a dream....

With respect to your idling problem, I had a similar issue that may be worth checking. There is an idle jet that is part of (buried in) the 'Venturi Cluster' in each carb. One of mine was blocked with a very small particle of ????. Once I cleared it the engine idled beautifully.

May be worth a try....

Kind regards from New Zealand....

SeamusNZ

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b74eqcm
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by b74eqcm » Sun May 14, 2017 3:33 am

I wonder if this is a car you've been driving regularly or if it is a car you are 'bring back to life'? Because this sounds to me like you've got a combination of old gas and/or junk in the fuel tank, which has now infected your rebuilt carbs.

The distributor curve etc doesn't account for the poor idling, and having to keep readjusting the carbs.

The other possibility is a weak ignition coil.
Jim Thomas
Bethel, VT
63 Monza Coupe

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cnicol
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by cnicol » Sun May 14, 2017 5:23 am

If you go with a stock distributor, what you want is the 1110330 (or just "330"), this is the proper "low advance" distributor for engines with high initial timing settings. (18 degree engine needs low advance dist) (4-degree engine needs high advance distributor). The 330, like any good performance distributor, is "all in" at a relatively low rpm.

If you engine has non-smog carburetors (if you see an air jet in the corner of the carburetor throat it's a smog carb, which isn't a bad thing but they're not common), anyway, if your engine has non smog carburetors, the idle mixture screw starting position is 1.5 turns, not 2.5. On a smog carb, it's 3-turns.

If the idle jet is clogged (common) most of the time people will just crank on the idle speed screw until the throttle is open enough to start idling on the main jet (you will see the venturi cluster slowly dripping fuel). It will never work right when jacked around this way. There are a couple of external ways to attempt to clear the idle jet but the best way is to simply remove the cluster and pass a tiny wire strand through it. Hold up to a light to verify it's open. Note: If the engine is reacting to the idle mixture screw, as in that side dies when the screw is closed, the idle jet IS NOT clogged; the problem lies elsewhere.
carburetor venturi cluster.jpg
carburetor venturi cluster.jpg (10.53 KiB) Viewed 251 times
'61 140 PG Rampside
'66 Rear Alum V8 4-dr
'60 Monza PG coupe (sold, sniff, sniff)
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by cnicol » Sun May 14, 2017 5:32 am

Another common issue when an engine won't idle is an improper base timing. If the idle rpm is high (say 1000 PRM) when you're setting the timing, the distributor will already be advancing the spark. If the engine idle speed slows for some reason, the distributor advance backs down and retards the spark. Retarded spark leads to even slower rpm and thus begins the "death spiral" of lower and lower rpm and less and less initial timing due to the improper initial timing procedure.

I like to set the base timing with the engine off and start from there. Once you get it started and warmed up, adjust the carburetors for good 650 RPM idle (manual trans) and double check that the initial timing is still where it's supposed to be. Sometimes you have to go back and forth between the distributor timing and carburetor adjustments to finally get it "tuned-up".
'61 140 PG Rampside
'66 Rear Alum V8 4-dr
'60 Monza PG coupe (sold, sniff, sniff)
'66 Corsa Fitch Sprint Conv. (First car 1971, recently repurchased)

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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun May 14, 2017 8:29 am

:dontknow: I noticed a couple of abnormalities with regard to your carburetor installation:

The two carburetors you have installed as secondary carburetors are not really secondary carburetors. They are actually modified primary carburetors that had the vacuum break mechanism removed. However, these two carburetors still have a complete choke mechanism installed, as well as all of the idle circuits, low-speed circuits, accelerator pumps, etc. Normally, secondary carburetors have a float, main metering and pump systems only. The idle, choke, and power systems that are found in the primary carburetors are not used or installed in the secondary carburetors. Also, secondary carburetors do not normally have a vacuum tube or a spark tube installed. Since they exist on the carburetors on your engine they should have been plugged. However, instead of plugging them a short hose was installed that connected the two vacuum ports together! The two vacuum ports are not the same. The vertical port is drilled to expose the tube to engine vacuum only when the throttle begins to open. The horizontal vacuum tube is exposed to full intake manifold vacuum at all times. It might help if you were to plug both vacuum lines on these two carburetors instead of connecting the two ports. There is also a spark tube on the left primary carburetor that should be plugged. In addition, I cannot see a vacuum balance tube on your engine. As shown in the illustrations below a vacuum balance tube is part of a normal configuration on all Corvair engines, with the exception of the turbocharged engine. (I have attached a copy of the DELCO ROCHESTER - Models H, HV Carburetor Service Manual. A detailed description of the four carburetor configuration of the 140 hp engines begins on page 12. The function of each carburetor subsystem and circuit is described in detail in the earlier section of this manual).

Instead of the long stud and nut normally used to secure the carburetor to the intake manifold, the right front primary carburetor appears to be secured with a long bolt that is threaded into the aluminum intake manifold threads. This arrangement may not provide an adequate seal against vacuum leaks at the base of the carburetor. As shown in the diagram below, each carburetor base should be isolated from the intake manifold by a special plastic insulator. To ensure a proper seal two gaskets should also be used at the base of each carburetor, above and below the plastic insulator.

A Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system should be properly installed and configured.

The impact of the additional two primary carburetors on your engine, configured as they are, is unknown. The extra idle circuits and potential for vacuum leaks and improperly plugged vacuum ports could all have a negative impact. Also, it is possible that the seldom-used "secondary" carburetors may have throttle butterfly valves that are not completely closing when they are not in use. If the throttles do not completely close they can have a negative impact on engine performance and idle characteristics.

Since the two "secondary" carburetors are incorrect for your engine, you might try removing them and fabricating a pair of block off plates to temporarily configure the engine with two carburetors only. You should verify that there are no vacuum leaks, that a vacuum balance tube is correctly installed, that a PCV system is correctly installed, and tune the engine with the two primary carburetors installed only. If the engine runs correctly on the two primary carburetors, you could then proceed with obtaining a pair of correct secondary carburetors to install and complete the 140 hp engine configuration.
Carburetor 4 (Secondary).jpg
Carburetor 2 (Secondary).jpg
Carburetor 3 (Primary).jpg
Carburetor 1 (Primary).jpg

VACUUM BALANCE TUBE — Is there one on your engine?
Vacuum Balance Tube.jpg
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Here are the Corvair distributor numbers and their timing characteristics...

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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by God.favored » Sun May 14, 2017 9:22 am

WOW!! seriously you guys are amazing! I just learned more in 10 minutes from you guys than an entire weekend and hours of research!

So when you screw in the idle mixture screw the engine does die, so I'm pretty sure that passage is clear.

I did pull the tank and clean it out, along with a new filter and new filters in the carbs, that said its still possible that theres junk but don't think its very likely.

Thanks for the info on the distributor! I'll check what I have today. And good to know about the adjustment for the mixture, weird how it still seems to run best around 2.5, but that could be because of a combination of other problems. It's also very possible that I have the base timing set wrong, My idle was probably a bit high when I set it.

And WOW bbodie for the win! Like I said its definitely frankenstein motor, that picture of the engine compartment I had unfortunately was not the one I meant to click and was a bit dated I have a current picture. As far as the "secondaries" go. I like the idea of blocking them off for now and tune that way. Is there any information out there on converting the primary to a secondary? or am I just better off going ahead and looking for a good pair of secondaries? I have another set of 4 carbs, but they all look exactly the same. I'll definitely take care of that bolt and replace it with a stud, I wondered about that but its how I bought the engine and just left it as it was. For the vacuum advance port, I've got that port tied together on both primaries with a tee then it goes to the vacuum advance, Is that right or should it just be coming from one carb? maybe I'm getting too much vacuum to the advance?

Lots of little problems to work on, Thank you guys so much!!! I've been dinking around with this thing for months now just never quite able to figure it out, I'll keep you updated on what i find out.
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1967 140 4 Speed
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun May 14, 2017 12:40 pm

I just wanted to provide you with a little further clarification on the difference between the two vacuum ports on the side of the carburetor:

The horizontal port on each carburetor is essentially a direct access to the intake manifold vacuum. When connected to the choke mechanism vacuum break, it pulls the choke butterfly valve open partially when the engine starts. Before the engine starts, there is no intake manifold vacuum, so the choke mechanism fully closes the choke butterfly at the intake to the carburetor. This blocks most of the air that would normally enter the carburetor throat, which results in a very rich mixture of fuel to air, and helps the engine to start when cold. (When the engine is warm the choke thermostat is also warm and contracted, which keeps the choke butterfly valve open for restarting an already warm engine). When the engine starts, but the throttle is mostly closed the engine begins to idle and manifold vacuum is high. The presence of a strong vacuum at the horizontal carburetor port is connected to the vacuum break diaphragm, which pulls the diaphragm open. The diaphragm is linked to the choke butterfly valve, so it to is also partially opened as a result of the presence of intake manifold vacuum (which tells the choke mechanism that the engine is running). This gives the cold, but running the engine a little more air, which it needs to continue running. As the engine warms, the choke thermostat also becomes warmer and gradually disengages the choke mechanism, until it is wide open when the engine reaches normal operating temperatures.

The other vacuum port on the carburetor is sometimes called a "spark port". Its purpose is to connect to the vacuum advance on the distributor. When the engine is idling, the throttle is closed — held open only slightly by the setting of the idle speed screw and/or the engagement of the choke fast idle cam. At idle speed, there is no need for vacuum advance, and the engine is idling at a speed that is too slow to begin engaging the centrifugal advance inside the distributor. The spark port is drilled internally through the carburetor body so that it is open to the carburetor throat — but above the throttle butterfly valve. This means that intake manifold vacuum will not reach the spark port when the engine is idling. But as the operator begins to open the throttle, the opening throttle butterfly valve begins to uncover the opening to the spark port. This allows some intake manifold vacuum to reach the spark port, which begins to activate the vacuum advance device on the distributor. As engine speed increases with a continuing increase in the opening of the throttle butterfly, intake manifold begins to decrease, while engine RPM increases. The increasing engine speed begins to engage the centrifugal advance at higher engine RPM settings, which takes over for the vacuum advance that was initially engaged at lower engine speeds.

The primary carburetors that were installed on your engine for use as secondary carburetors are each fitted with a two vacuum ports (which are not present on normal secondary carburetors). By connecting the horizontal and vertical tubes with a rubber hose, you have — in effect — created a vacuum leak. The vacuum from the horizontal tube is pulling air through the vertical tube that is connected to the carburetor intake throat at a point above the throttle butterfly. This is allowing air to be drawn from the spark port into the horizontal vacuum port. Both of these ports are normally either blocked or connected to vacuum diaphragms (choke vacuum break or distributor vacuum advance). Neither one of these diaphragms would normally not allow air to enter the hose. The vacuum connection merely draws a small amount of air from the sealed chamber, which causes the diaphragm inside to move. This movement would either activate (open) the choke butterfly, or on the distributor it would move the breaker plate mechanism to advance the timing in conjunction with the vacuum advance mechanism. Connecting the two ports together by a hose allows air to enter the intake manifold on each "secondary" carburetor — which constitutes a vacuum leak, which would lean the intake mixture.
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by God.favored » Sun May 14, 2017 2:17 pm

bbodie52 wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 12:40 pm
I just wanted to provide you with a little further clarification on the difference between the two vacuum ports on the side of the carburetor:
Makes way more sense now! Thanks so much for everything! now I have some stuff to try out and play with. I'll have to see what I can do. Its really nice not having to use this as a daily right now because I can try stuff out without fear of not having transportation afterward.

As far as the chokes on the secondaries, would i be better off removing the choke plates on those? if I understood right you where saying that they didn't even have that top choke butterfly on the secondaries?

I'll be down at the shop again tomorrow so I'll be doing some experimenting :)

As frustrating as it can be sometimes I just love these cars! honestly I probably like working on them even more than just having them. It's all about the project:)
1967 140 4 Speed
1963 Monza 900 Spyder

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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun May 14, 2017 3:55 pm

The choke plates (choke butterfly valves) have minimal impact on the carburetors as long as the chokes remain wide open. Likewise, the fast idle cam and mechanism on the side of the carburetor would also remain disengaged. The idle speed setting screws on the two carburetors that are to be used as secondary carburetors should be backed off or removed so that the throttle mechanism can close completely. The accelerator pump mechanism inside the carburetor includes a spring mechanism, and is needed to assist the carburetor throttles with remaining closed when they are not in use. Closing the idle mixture screws all the way would eliminate any impact they may have, and plugging both vacuum tubes would prevent them from impacting the carburetor operation.

I know that Clark's Corvair Parts lists a 4×1 carburetor conversion kit for use on two-carburetor engines, and that their kit specifically makes use of two additional primary carburetors. I believe it is possible to make use of two additional primary carburetors in place of the normal factory secondary carburetor configuration, but I have no experience with such a set up. Bob Helt's book, How to Identify and Rebuild Corvair Rochester Carburetors (hard to find, but it is listed on Clark's Corvair Parts online catalog) may contain some information that could help you. Rebuilt Rochester secondaries are also listed for sale on eBay :link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Premium ... HA&vxp=mtr, but there is a core credit involved on exchange basis, and since you don't have any secondary carburetors you would have to contact the seller (The Carbmeister) to determine how to proceed. You could also try a used parts source like the Corvair Ranch in Gettysburg Pennsylvania :link: http://www.corvairranch.com/ to see if they could assist you with obtaining the needed hardware. Others on this Corvair Forum may have experience with converting and using standard primary carburetors in the two secondary positions, and may be able to advise you.

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... w_page=251
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Part number C3939: BOOK-CARBS BY BOB HELT

Weight: 1 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 251
Price: $ 26.85


The vacuum advance hose should only be connected from the distributor vacuum advance to the right primary carburetor (vertical spark tube vacuum port). The factory configuration never connected that hose via a tee configuration to both primary carburetors. The left carburetor spark tube is simply capped and is not used.
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by God.favored » Sun May 14, 2017 6:32 pm

bbodie52 wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 3:55 pm
The choke plates (choke butterfly valves) have minimal impact on the carburetors as long as the chokes remain wide open. Likewise, the fast idle cam and mechanism on the side of the carburetor would also remain disengaged. The idle speed setting screws on the two carburetors that are to be used as secondary carburetors should be backed off or removed so that the throttle mechanism can close completely. The accelerator pump mechanism inside the carburetor includes a spring mechanism, and is needed to assist the carburetor throttles with remaining closed when they are not in use. Closing the idle mixture screws all the way would eliminate any impact they may have, and plugging both vacuum tubes would prevent them from impacting the carburetor operation.

I know that Clark's Corvair Parts lists a 4×1 carburetor conversion kit for use on two-carburetor engines, and that their kit specifically makes use of two additional primary carburetors. I believe it is possible to make use of two additional primary carburetors in place of the normal factory secondary carburetor configuration, but I have no experience with such a set up. Bob Helt's book, How to Identify and Rebuild Corvair Rochester Carburetors (hard to find, but it is listed on Clark's Corvair Parts online catalog) may contain some information that could help you. Rebuilt Rochester secondaries are also listed for sale on eBay :link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Premium ... HA&vxp=mtr, but there is a core credit involved on exchange basis, and since you don't have any secondary carburetors you would have to contact the seller (The Carbmeister) to determine how to proceed. You could also try a used parts source like the Corvair Ranch in Gettysburg Pennsylvania :link: http://www.corvairranch.com/ to see if they could assist you with obtaining the needed hardware. Others on this Corvair Forum may have experience with converting and using standard primary carburetors in the two secondary positions, and may be able to advise you.

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... w_page=251
Image

Part number C3939: BOOK-CARBS BY BOB HELT

Weight: 1 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 251
Price: $ 26.85


The vacuum advance hose should only be connected from the distributor vacuum advance to the right primary carburetor (vertical spark tube vacuum port). The factory configuration never connected that hose via a tee configuration to both primary carburetors. The left carburetor spark tube is simply capped and is not used.
Awesome! I'll have to pick up a copy of that book. good to know about the spring as well, one of the secondaries actually didn't have that spring, I robbed it from one of the extra carbs that I have. I'll keep doing some research until I can make it to the shop and try some stuff out.
1967 140 4 Speed
1963 Monza 900 Spyder

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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by God.favored » Sun May 14, 2017 6:49 pm

Ok another thing, the vacuum balance tube has a line tying it to the crank case vent tube. then the vent tube just goes up to atmosphere, that is probably causing a leak in vacuum as well, I know originally it went into the stock air filter but I don't have that stock setup, never did. Should I just put a PCV valve on it?
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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by cnicol » Sun May 14, 2017 7:07 pm

Current vacuum balance connection to PCV tee is correct. The PCV tube's side leg for that hose is not an open tube but rather a small drilled orifice. While it is technically a vacuum leak, it is a controlled vacuum leak and most of the time it's pulling in combustible crankcase blowby fumes.

If there is a shortage of fumes, clean air is drawn from the stock air cleaner. If there are excess fumes (too much for the vacuum to handle or low vacuum such as wide open throttle), the excess fumes are routed to the stock air cleaner and drawn into the carburetor throats.

If the connection is left open as yours is, vacuum will bring in outside dirt OR excessive crankcase blowby will spew from the pipe to be drawn into you fan and heater. Crankcase fumes smell pretty bad, as will your heater.

You should make an effort to create a connection from the open end of the PCV pipe to the bases of the two primary carburetor filters.
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Last edited by cnicol on Sun May 14, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'61 140 PG Rampside
'66 Rear Alum V8 4-dr
'60 Monza PG coupe (sold, sniff, sniff)
'66 Corsa Fitch Sprint Conv. (First car 1971, recently repurchased)

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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by God.favored » Sun May 14, 2017 7:10 pm

cnicol wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 7:07 pm
Current vacuum balance connection to PCV tee is correct. The PCV tube's side leg for that hose is not an open tube but rather a small drilled orifice. While it is technically a vacuum leak, it is a controlled vacuum leak and most of the time it's pulling in combustible crankcase blowby fumes.

If there is a shortage of fumes, clean air is drawn from the stock air cleaner. If there are excess fumes (too much for the vacuum to handle or low vacuum such as wide open throttle), the excess fumes are routed to the stock air cleaner and drawn into the carburetor throats.

If the connection is left open as yours is, vacuum will bring in outside dirt OR excessive crankcase will spew from the pipe to be drawn into you fan and heater. Crankcase fumes smell pretty bad, as will your heater.

You should make an effort to create a connection from the open end of the PCV pipe to the bases of the two primary carburetor filters.
good to know, do you know of any adapters they make with a vacuum line on the side of it that I could put between the air filter and the carburetor? or will I just need to fab something up?
1967 140 4 Speed
1963 Monza 900 Spyder

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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by cnicol » Sun May 14, 2017 8:33 pm

For the PCV fresh-air connections, you just have to fabricate. The picture I posted is a nice clean example though I think it's a really bad practice to chop up the factory PCV tube - they're in short supply and irreplaceable.
'61 140 PG Rampside
'66 Rear Alum V8 4-dr
'60 Monza PG coupe (sold, sniff, sniff)
'66 Corsa Fitch Sprint Conv. (First car 1971, recently repurchased)

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Re: 67 Won't Idle

Unread post by God.favored » Sun May 14, 2017 9:29 pm

cnicol wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 8:33 pm
For the PCV fresh-air connections, you just have to fabricate. The picture I posted is a nice clean example though I think it's a really bad practice to chop up the factory PCV tube - they're in short supply and irreplaceable.
good to know about not chopping it up, I'll figure something out :) my sister is a very good tig welder, I may just get her help fabbing some stuff up :)
1967 140 4 Speed
1963 Monza 900 Spyder

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