my 65 110 wont start!!!

[Kooshrabbit]

recently replaced pistons. got it all put back ,, getting fuel, got spark.oil is up. battery is strong. So why wont it start

[terribleted]

Distributor incorrectly installed? Valves improperly adjusted? Improper firing order. Fouled plugs? Timing way way off? Among other things. Go back to basics and re-check everything. I had this on a freshly rebuilt engine the other day. I was sure everything was right, but, it still would not fire. I went back and rechecked the distributor...it was perfectly referenced to TDC after the exhaust valve closed rather than after the intake valve closed. Yup I watched the wrong valve while finding #1 TDC for distributor install. (btw rotating the engine the wrong direction while doing this (should be CCW) will give the same bad result). Re-poritioned distributor and it fired right up.

[Jerry Whitt]

Certain terminology is important when asking for help. The term "wont start" is useless when asking for help.

The term " no crank" means after the key is turned to the start position, the starter motor is not heard to spin the engine.

The term "no fire up" means the starter motor spins the engine, but the engine does not begin to run on its own.

The term "no spark" means when the engine starter motor spins the engine, the coil wire high tension wire when held near ground does not spark.

Please use common phrases. We will then know how to guide you.

[bbodie52]

Welcome to the Corvair Forum!

Let's see...

Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:40 pm

recently replaced pistons. got it all put back ,, getting fuel, got spark.oil is up. battery is strong. So why wont it start

Given limited information it sounds like the peripheral items (ignition and fuel) are all present and accounted for. As mentioned, timing is a key factor, but if you have not removed the distributor or disturbed it in the process of replacing the pistons, the ignition system may be OK. BUT YOU DID REMOVE AND REPLACE THE HEADS AND THE CYLINDERS/PISTONS ETC. So I would suspect a mechanical fault that is perhaps leaving your cylinders with no compression (the third critical element for the engine to run, in addition to a fuel/air mixture and the correct spark to ignite it).

I would pull the spark plugs and follow the shop manual procedures to check the compression in all six cylinders. This will confirm the piston ring, head gasket, and intake/exhaust valve seal quality. Please run the compression test, record the readings, and let us know the test results.

Also, how long was the car sitting idle while te engine work was in-progress? i.e., is the fuel fresh or very stale??

[Garbanso]

i put some 140 heads on my 110 engine block, the pistons were replaced with brand new forged ones(20+from stock).last i checked the compression they ranged from 100 to 105psi.its got a new hi torque starter(which i would like to know how to clip my starter button to). new coil, new regulator, put a 140 distributor in it.it turns over but doesnt even spudder like it wants to start.i hate having to look on the internet for soo long to find anything related to my problem and when i do start reading the persons similer problem,which only turns into this person rambling on about how he came about this expirience and blah blah blah only to realize this guy aint talking how he fixed it, he still has that problem.over and over,nothing but bullshit talkers that dont know shit, and those that do are the biggest jerk offs man. the information this "club" makes easily available for simple members like me dont fucken exist.im at my ends with trying to get help from you club member.

[bbodie52]

i put some 140 heads on my 110 engine block, the pistons were replaced with brand new forged ones(20+from stock).last i checked the compression they ranged from 100 to 105psi.its got a new hi torque starter(which i would like to know how to clip my starter button to). new coil, new regulator, put a 140 distributor in it.it turns over but doesnt even spudder like it wants to start.i hate having to look on the internet for soo long to find anything related to my problem and when i do start reading the persons similer problem,which only turns into this person rambling on about how he came about this expirience and blah blah blah only to realize this guy aint talking how he fixed it, he still has that problem.over and over,nothing but bullshit talkers that dont know shit, and those that do are the biggest jerk offs man. the information this "club" makes easily available for simple members like me dont fucken exist.im at my ends with trying to get help from you club member.

I'm having a difficult time with your post. With all the foul language, name-calling, etc. it's hard to tell who you are mad at and whether or not you're asking for assistance with your Corvair. I understand that you are frustrated with the problems you are having since you installed new pistons, 140 hp heads, a 140 hp distributor, and a new coil. I'm assuming you have installed some kind of 140 hp 4×1 carburetor arrangement with the associated linkage. Or did you choose a center mount four barrel carburetor and custom intake manifold?

I'm assuming your 110 hp engine was in running condition before you removed the heads and changed the pistons. You have made a lot of changes to your engine, but the compression test of all cylinders is helpful. The published standard is 130 psi with the maximum variation of 20 psi between the cylinders. Your readings of 100-105 psi are a little low, but nice and even, and might be explained because of the new pistons and rings with zero break-in mileage accumulated to properly seat the rings. So I think we can assume that the bottom end of your Corvair engine is mechanically sound with a good seal in the combustion chambers and the initial adjustment of the intake and exhaust valves properly set so that the valves are all opening and fully closing.

I would suggest starting with an initial careful check of the ignition system. Since you replaced the distributor and the ignition coil there is a possibility that a problem may exist at some point within your ignition system. Is the distributor stock with ignition points and condenser? Or did you upgrade the distributor with the electronic breakerless ignition system? What type of coil have you installed? Have you checked for the presence of 12 V DC at the positive coil terminal? Have you tried unplugging the coil wire from the distributor cap and holding the metal contact close to a chassis ground to see if you get a spark when you crank the engine?

You mentioned the installation of an aftermarket hi torque starter motor. I understand that this aftermarket starter motor does not have an ignition system ballast resistor bypass circuit, like the stock starter solenoid has. Clark's also mentioned that they did not ship these starters with a diode kit to handle the bypass function. How did you wire your ignition coil? Is it still powered through the standard wiring harness ballast resistor? Or did you bypass the factory ballast resistor to provide a full 12 V DC to the ignition coil at all times when the key is on?

I can suggest some additional troubleshooting steps if you fail to get a spark from the coil when cranking the engine, but the configuration of your ignition system and any modifications you have made needs to be known before I suggest any additional steps.

I understand the frustration you have expressed with your lack of progress in getting the engine started and apparently with an inability to find useful information to help you resolve the problem as you browsed the Internet. Please provide some answers to my questions above so that we can figure out the next steps you need to take to get your engine running.

[Garbanso]

I replaced the pistons because 4 of its original pistons ended up breaking in pieces and also caused damage to one of the heads valve face surface. My distributor is stock with points,my coil is an mds blaster 2 brand new, the hi torque starter I had an auto electricians shop install it. I got some 8mm plug wires on(I’m starting to if that would affect it)I think I’m going to put the original 7mm back on, the carburetor set up is thee original 4 single barrel Rochester’s setup,. What I am noticing is that I’m not getting a spark from the coil. The only one time it did start up was when I first tried starting it after I finished putting it together. It ran for about 5 sec. before one of the carburetors started drowning out in gas’,so I rebuilt it and then I started getting spark problems sometimes it would put out good spark other times it wasn’t , that’s when I got a new coil but I’m still not getting a spark

[bmwtodd1]

The 8mm wires won't be an issue either way, as long as they are routed to the correct spark plugs. So verify that they are. An examination of the points, condenser and spark plugs is in order, and may provide you a direction to move forward with. I'm not educated on the starter yet, but am concerned what the voltage is going to the points is. And as brad said, verify first that you have voltage to the positive side of the coil.

[bbodie52]

Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:04 am

I replaced the pistons because 4 of its original pistons ended up breaking in pieces and also caused damage to one of the heads valve face surface. My distributor is stock with points, my coil is an mds blaster 2...

That ignition coil has a primary resistance of only 0.7 ohms! IT IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH IGNITION POINTS, and requires a special electronic ignition system that can handle the low resistance and high current of a 45,000 volt high performance ignition coil. It is similar to the Pertronix FlameThrower II high performance (45,000 Volt) coil with a special 0.6 ohm primary resistance. Both of these high voltage racing coils will function with a breakerless electronic ignition system such as the Pertronix Ignitor II.

Note: This Blaster Coil Kit is intended to be used with an MSD Ignition. If installing on a stock, points style ignition system, a 0.8 ohm ballast resistor or resistor wiring MUST be installed. MSD offers this Ballast Resistor as PN 8214 or the Blaster Coil Kits, PN 8200 and 8203 are equipped with one

WARNING: Failure to use a ballast resistor could result in personal injury or component failure.

BLASTER 2 COIL HIGH PERFORMANCE
Our famous red canister coil! Great choice with an MSD 6-series ignition



The MSD instruction sheet (attached) mandates the addition of a 0.8 ohms ballast resistor to the primary ignition circuit if you want to continue using stock points. The standard Corvair Delco ignition coil has an internal primary resistance of 1.28-1.42 ohms. The MSD Blaster coil primary resistance of 0.7 ohms, when coupled with the mandated 0.8 ohm ballast resistor = 1.5 ohms. When added to the existing Corvair primary circuit ballast resistor wire (1.8 ohms), the total primary circuit resistance would be returned to a nominal 3.0 ohms, which drops the nominal 12 VDC source voltage down to approximately 7 VDC. This lower voltage reduces the current across the ignition points to a tolerable level that will not burn or destroy the standard points prematurely. HOWEVER, DOING SO ALSO REDUCES THE SECONDARY OUTPUT VOLTAGE PROVIDED BY THE MSD COIL TO A LEVEL THAT IS SIMILAR TO THE STANDARD CORVAIR IGNITION COIL, WHICH NEGATES THE REASON FOR BUYING A HIGH VOLTAGE COIL IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The Corvair engine is a relatively low RPM, low compression ratio engine. It does not need a high performance coil. Your new MSD coil will function properly in your system with ignition points, AS LONG AS THE FACTORY BALLAST RESISTOR WIRE IS RETAINED AND THE MSD-MANDATED 0.8 OHM RESISTOR IS ADDED TO THE CIRCUIT.


Left-click to enlarge for better viewing...

You mentioned the installation of an aftermarket hi torque starter motor. I understand that this aftermarket starter motor does not have an ignition system ballast resistor bypass circuit, like the stock starter solenoid has. Clark's also mentioned that they did not ship these starters with a diode kit to handle the bypass function. How did you wire your ignition coil? Is it still powered through the standard wiring harness ballast resistor? Or did you bypass the factory ballast resistor to provide a full 12 V DC to the ignition coil at all times when the key is on?

If you trace the wire from the ballast resistor to the stock coil in the schematic wiring diagram below, you will see that this circuit is also connected to the stock starter solenoid. In the standard Corvair ignition circuit, the voltage from the resistor wire is provided from the ignition switch in the instrument panel (in the ON position). But when the starter is engaged by turning the ignition switch to START, the stock starter solenoid also provides the stock coil with a temporary voltage boost (bypassing the ballast resistor wire) for as long as the engine is being cranked. This temporary voltage boost provides a hotter spark to the spark plugs to help with starting a cold engine. When the engine starts the key is released and the coil voltage power source returns to the ballast resistor circuit. This lower voltage prolongs the life of the points and allows for a cooler operation of the standard coil. The aftermarket starter you installed does not have the special boost circuit provided by the stock starter and solenoid. If the person who installed the new starter modified the standard factory wiring, you need to determine what has been done to the stock wiring, to see if power to the coil is still being supplied by the ignition switch/ballast resistor circuit. Once you have confirmed proper wiring and power to the coil, you will need to add the 0.8 ohm ballast resistor to the circuit specified by MSD. You also may need to check on the original points and condenser if a full 12 VDC was being supplied to the coil, since doing so may have damaged the points and condenser.

Left-click once or twice to enlarge for better viewing...

1965 Corvair Monza Full Schematic (Rev. D)

[bmwtodd1]

Good info, thanks Brad.

[Garbanso]

my biggest problem to figure out has been "why am i not getting a spark". i got a hi torque starter installed but i dont know how to hook up my jump button. if anyone knows it would make my working on the motor a dream instead of this nightmare i'm having with it. im looking for serious advice only advanced from timing at 14btc(check),wires(check),points gap at 19(check),carbs pumping fuel(check),new coil(check)

[Garbanso]

I replaced the pistons because 4 of its original pistons ended up breaking in pieces and also caused damage to one of the heads valve face surface. My distributor is stock with points,my coil is an mds blaster 2 brand new, the hi torque starter I had an auto electricians shop install it. I got some 8mm plug wires on(I’m starting to if that would affect it)I think I’m going to put the original 7mm back on, the carburetor set up is thee original 4 single barrel Rochester’s setup,. What I am noticing is that I’m not getting a spark from the coil. The only one time it did start up was when I first tried starting it after I finished putting it together. It ran for about 5 sec. before one of the carburetors started drowning out in gas’,so I rebuilt it and then I started getting spark problems sometimes it would put out good spark other times it wasn’t , that’s when I got a new coil but I’m still not getting a spark

[bbodie52]

Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:00 am

...My distributor is stock with points,my coil is an mds blaster 2 brand new, the hi torque starter I had an auto electricians shop install it...

As I stated earlier, your distributor configuration, WITH STANDARD POINTS AND CONDENSER, IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE MSD 45,000 VOLT IGNITION COIL!!! The MSD coil is an ultra-high performance coil designed to be used with an electronic ignition system that can handle the on/off switching current carried by a coil with only 0.7 ohms in the primary circuit. The Corvair ignition points are designed to function with only a nominal 7 VDC applied to the primary coil windings. The Corvair factory ballast resistor wire (1.8 ohms) coupled with a standard coil that provides a nominal 1.5 ohm (GM Delco spec 1.28 - 1.42 ohms) primary coil resistance will reduce the voltage down to this level. Attempting to run the MSD BLASTER 2 COIL with standard ignition points will rapidly burn and destroy the contacts on the points. The high current draw could also possibly damage and overheat the ballast resistor wire that is embedded in the Corvair wiring harness.

Brand MSD
Emission Code 1
Inductance 8 mH
Maximum voltage 45,000 Volts
Peak current 140 mA
Primary resistance .7 OHMs
Product Type Coil
Secondary resistance 4.5K OHMs
Spark duration 350 uS
Turns ratio 100:1
Weight N/A
Part Number 8202

You need to test the primary voltage circuit that normally connects to the ignition coil positive terminal (Black/Yellow wire) by using a multimeter to check for voltage between that wire and CHASSIS GROUND when the key is ON. With the wire disconnected from the coil and the key ON you should measure 12 VDC there. If no voltage is present with the key ON further troubleshooting will have to be done to determine where the fault lies. You also need to abandon the MSD high performance coil and purchase a standard replacement coil with a 1.5 ohm primary winding.

===============================================================================================================

If you enlarge the vehicle schematic and locate the starter/solenoid on the diagram, you will see a thick 6 Gauge cable that connects the solenoid to the battery positive terminal. The starter housing — bolted to the engine — provides the electrical return path connection (Ground) to the battery negative terminal. A thinner purple wire, labeled 12 PPL, connects the starter solenoid to the ignition switch in the dashboard. When the key is turned to START, 12 VDC is applied to the terminal on the starter solenoid, causing the starter gear drive to engage with the ring gear on the clutch pressure plate or automatic transmission ring gear on the torque converter. At the same time a large heavy duty switch inside the solenoid applies battery power from the thick battery positive cable to the starter motor, to turn on the motor when the drive hear has shifted and engaged with the ring gear. When the key is released the solenoid returns to the disengaged position, pulling the drive gear away from the ring gear and cutting power to the starter motor.

1965-1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Harness Starter Connections

1965-1969 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Harness Starter Connections.jpg (80.88 KiB) Viewed 1221 times

A remote starter switch is used to establish a temporary power connection between the battery positive terminal and the starter solenoid terminal that is connected to the purple wire that connects the solenoid "S" terminal to the ignition switch. When you press the remote starter switch button, it applies voltage from the battery positive cable directly to the "S" terminal, which causes the stater to engage and crank the engine, in the same way the ignition switch normally functions when you turn the key. (With a standard Corvair starter, the other thin yellow wire that is connected to the other solenoid terminal applies 12 VDC voltage directly to the ignition coil positive terminal while the engine is being cranked. This could cause the engine to momentarily start while the solenoid is engaged, but if the key is OFF the engine would die the moment the starter solenoid disengages. This is the ballast resistor bypass circuit, which I believe is not included in the aftermarket hi torque starter you have installed. In any case, if you don't want the engine to start when cranked with the remote starter button, disconnect the wire from the positive coil terminal. If you want the engine to start, leave the wire connected and turn the key to the ON position.

Remote Starter Switch

[Kooshrabbit]

Distributor incorrectly installed? Valves improperly adjusted? Improper firing order. Fouled plugs? Timing way way off? Among other things. Go back to basics and re-check everything. I had this on a freshly rebuilt engine the other day. I was sure everything was right, but, it still would not fire. I went back and rechecked the distributor...it was perfectly referenced to TDC after the exhaust valve closed rather than after the intake valve closed. Yup I watched the wrong valve while finding #1 TDC for distributor install. (btw rotating the engine the wrong direction while doing this (should be CCW) will give the same bad result). Re-poritioned distributor and it fired right up.

so when you say "ccw" do you mean the crankshalt turning ccw or the distributor turning ccw. i have a high torque starter installed and had an electronic coversion on my distributor

[terribleted]

Distributor incorrectly installed? Valves improperly adjusted? Improper firing order. Fouled plugs? Timing way way off? Among other things. Go back to basics and re-check everything. I had this on a freshly rebuilt engine the other day. I was sure everything was right, but, it still would not fire. I went back and rechecked the distributor...it was perfectly referenced to TDC after the exhaust valve closed rather than after the intake valve closed. Yup I watched the wrong valve while finding #1 TDC for distributor install. (btw rotating the engine the wrong direction while doing this (should be CCW) will give the same bad result). Re-poritioned distributor and it fired right up.

so when you say "ccw" do you mean the crankshalt turning ccw or the distributor turning ccw. i have a high torque starter installed and had an electronic coversion on my distributor

Crankshaft rotate Counter clock wise in operation so when finding TDC you must rotate the engine CCW. the rotor in the distributor rotates Clockwise.