Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

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GriffinGuru
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Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by GriffinGuru » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:08 am

Hi everyone, this is not so much of a question, but since there are many out there who have like myself battled flooding carb issues I though I'll post my upgrade. All last summer I was fighting a flooding engine, I had my carbs out and apart numerous times, swapping out floats and rebuild kits and parts. I eventually found my problem to be a new faulty needle and seat, or some other issue pertaining to the needle not seating properly. Brad mentioned using the metal fuel inlet valves sold by Clarks that replace the entire needle-seat assembly, and are constructed from a metal ball bearing and fitting. The metal bearing is what takes the place of the needle part, and is contacted by the float tang. This design allows the ball bearing to always center in the hole in the valve seat.

Installing it was pretty straight forward, but I did notice that the whole valve assembly is about perhaps 1/32" shorted than the needle seat height. I used the thicker seat washer that is included with most rebuild kits with my valve and also had to play with the float height a little. The car wanted to be set at about 1 3/16" to 1 1/4" float height to be happy.

The results are great. It starts up with almost no effort and will come off fast idle nice and idle down with no spitting from the jets. It started good hot and also good cold, and runs nicer than it has for me, after screwing with those carbs on and off for the last 2 years.

I think the true root of my original problem was uneven float tang surface causing the needle to go in at an angle. From wear over years my float tangs had a small divot where they contacted the needle, and when installing new parts, the new needles just did not line up with the old wear areas and caused the needle to enter the seat crooked (is my educated assumption). The ball bearing design eliminates this problem since it rolls and always finds the center point to shut off the fuel. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS PART TO ANYONE HAVING FLOODING ISSUES :tu: :rafman: !!!
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The new valve in place.
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bbodie52
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by bbodie52 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:07 am

:ty: :goodpost: :clap:

Thanks for posting this review of the Clark's needle/seat carburetor upgrade. Excellent feedback!

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... ow_page=58
Image

Part number C3799: METAL FUEL INLET VALVE-60-69 FITS CARS & TURBOS

Weight: 0 lbs 2 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 48(10),55(12),58
Price:
1 - 3 $ 9.00
4+ $ 8.10


Image

Image

Part number C2764 (Regular): 60-69 NEEDLE & SEAT & GASKET

Weight: 0 lbs 2 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 55(12)
Price:
1 - 4 $ 5.00
5+ $ 4.55
Brad Bodie
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by terribleted » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:08 am

FYI 1 3/16" float level is too low. The shop manual specifies 1 13/64th" which is 1.203", 1 3/16" is only 1.187". I find after building many many carbs that a level of just a hair over 1 13/64" works great. I use 1 7/32" which is 1.218". 1 1/4" would likely work fine as well. Lower then spec you are asking for flooding a touch higher would help prevent it...at some point higher will cause issues from not enough fuel in the bowls.

The height of the contact point of the float with the valve is not relevant to anything really (it would only be relevant to how much you might have to bend or not bend the float tang to attain proper float level). as you did I would use the thicker gasket so as not to have to bent out the float tang as far.
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by triumphcorvair » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:18 am

Those are Grose Jets (top picture with the ball bearing).

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toytron
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by toytron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:45 pm

Yes those Grose jets were made originally by the inventor in his garage. I don't know if that is still the case but as was mentioned before they do work great. I plan on using one when I rebuild my turbo carb. There are actually two balls inside. The larger one presses on the smaller one that seats. The smaller one is to allow more fuel to pass by. The intent is to allow the ball to freely rotate keeping the ball and seat from grooving like the old brass or the rubber tipped style use to.

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GriffinGuru
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by GriffinGuru » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:53 am

Wait, all this time I have been measuring float height from the gasket. So I never thought about it, but the thicker gasket will raise the bowl up a little more and alter my measurements. I first did have the floats lower at about 1 3/16" (6/32) measured from the gasket, but they were still rich and stalled once choke was off. That is when I then went to a height of 1 1/4" (8/32) and all seemed to be well. Am I to understand that I was supposed to be measuring float height from the carb casting and not the gasket all this time?

It makes sense that the thicker gaskets would throw my measurements off. Do you then set the float height without the gasket, and then remove/re-install the float with the gasket in place once you are satisfied with the height?

Also I do notice that some of my floats will float higher or lower in gasoline than others, and as such I sometimes need to fine tune them so they are happy and compensate for the buoyancy. I suspect that the lower buoyant floats my have been re-soldered and weigh a little more.
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66vairguy
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by 66vairguy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:44 am

First - BUY Bob Helts "How to identify and Rebuild Corvair Rochester Carburetors". The book is well regarded. Not sure what year carburetor you are working on, but 60-63 was gasket to float bottom was 1-13/64" and Bob H. recommends 1-16/64". The 64-69 had a different float design and uses a different value. Bob H. recommends setting the fuel level 1/16" lower (that means gasket to float bottom value 1/16" greater) than spec. to prevent "dribbling" from the center cluster during idle. I've had this issue and reset my float levels to Bob's spec. and it fixed the problem.

Not ONE mention of your fuel pressure! The Corvair carburetor spec. is 4-5 PSI. As fuel pressure goes up the fuel level in the carburetor rises. I've helped a few buddies fix "carburetor" problems that were really fuel pump problems. Some of the mechanical fuel pumps are running as high as 9 PSI or folks install the wrong fuel pressure electric fuel pump.

I've only has one defective needle that stuck in the decades of working on old cars. I did consider "Ball" valves, a few years back and I found more folks had issues with them versus the original style carburetor valves!! So I stayed with the soft tipped standard valve needle. No problems so far.

Note that many Corvairs have the wrong carburetor or carburetors with mixed up parts. Bob Helts book identifies the changes.

Check your fuel pressure and lets us know how the ball valves work out.

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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by MonzaJPD61 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:18 am

Inspect the ball type needle & seat parts carefully with a magnifier before installing. I did not, thinking they were the cure all and I had worse problems than with the conventional needle and seat. Under magnification, mine had tiny brass "burrs" in the ball socket area, which prevented proper seating, hence incomplete fuel shut-off.

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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by GriffinGuru » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:30 am

Interesting replies. I have not checked the fuel pressure ever. It is running a traditional pump, but I have heard enough stories about those pump rebuilds putting our too much pressure. I just took it for a drive and I still have an intermittent misfire under load that I have had since last summer. This misfire has not improved or got worse with my carb rebuild. So far as the carbs go, I think they are still looking good though with no dribbling, but I'll keep an eye on them too.

For the misfire, it seems like possibly ignition related since it occurs under load, and I have not done anything to the distributer other than inspecting and setting the used points. I have a new points set and a few other parts needed for the ign. that I will work on next. I have a friend with a dwell meter so I can finally set the gap properly too.
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by terribleted » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:32 am

GriffinGuru wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:53 am
Wait, all this time I have been measuring float height from the gasket. So I never thought about it, but the thicker gasket will raise the bowl up a little more and alter my measurements. I first did have the floats lower at about 1 3/16" (6/32) measured from the gasket, but they were still rich and stalled once choke was off. That is when I then went to a height of 1 1/4" (8/32) and all seemed to be well. Am I to understand that I was supposed to be measuring float height from the carb casting and not the gasket all this time?

It makes sense that the thicker gaskets would throw my measurements off. Do you then set the float height without the gasket, and then remove/re-install the float with the gasket in place once you are satisfied with the height?

Also I do notice that some of my floats will float higher or lower in gasoline than others, and as such I sometimes need to fine tune them so they are happy and compensate for the buoyancy. I suspect that the lower buoyant floats my have been re-soldered and weigh a little more.
The float level is measured from the gasket. It is adjusted by bended the little foot under the bottom center of the float arm up or down. If you install a thicker needle seat gasket on the same needle seat the float level will be a higher (larger measurement) until you bend the float tang to adjust it to specification. You want the valve (regardless of how far out of the carb top the valve is) to close the fuel flow off when the carbs measures 1 11/64" from the gasket to the top of the floats. At this measurement the carb bowls are filled to the perfect level for best engine operation. A 1 3/16" float level will let the fuel bowl fill a little bit more and make flooding more likely. If you adjusted this measurement smaller still (higher fuel in the bowls before fuel shuts off) before long you would hit the point where the fuel never shuts off and the carbs overflow any time the pump is running. Like I said above I like to set them at 1 7/32" making then valve close a hair sooner (I also have a nice little sliding T ruler that measures in 32nds of an inch so that measurement is easy to see and measure:)). Your 1 1/4 setting might be fine. If the car never starves for gas under hard acceleration off the line you are peachy:)
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by GriffinGuru » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:35 am

I just wanted to give a last update to this post. I replaced my points and condenser and that took care of my random misfire under load. So far the carbs seem to be performing good for me. More driving will be the true test, but I am happy with the results so far.

Previous to the fuel inlet valves used I did have a good carb rebuild with traditional needle/seat set that worked good the entire first summer of driving, and sometime last summer it just decided to start flooding randomly after a long drive around the country side. My educated guess as to the failure of the original needle/seat is still leaning toward some misalignment or catching on the float tab due to the wear marks in said tab, but I'll never know for sure.

Many people did not use the metal fuel inlets when I inquired about their opinions, but the few the did have them installed were for the most part happy with them. MonzaJPD61 and 66vairguy did have some problems with them though, and reminded me that it is not a silver bullet cure all. So, at this point I am still happy with the performance overall, but I will not get my expectations too high because nothing is perfect. :my02:
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Re: Metal fuel inlet valve (replaces needle and seat in carb)

Unread post by 66vairguy » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:26 am

Glad it all worked out.

Years ago I was helping with an EM turbo car. It was pouring gas out the air cleaner. The carburetor had been rebuilt and a new fuel filter installed. Folks took the carburetor apart and could find nothing wrong. It was assumed the float needle was bad. I had my magnifying glass in the tool kit and pulled out the float needle and there it was - a little piece of paper, barely visible. It probably came out of the new filter. Removed the debris out of the valve and assembled the carburetor, it worked fine.

Another issue is when you let a car sit the carburetors dry out. This can gum up the carburetor on first start up. I've had it happen on old cars, not just Corvairs. On a first start up after sitting awhile you have to keep an eye on things. Usually a stuck float valve will loosen up.

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