Help desperately needed..

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bbodie52
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by bbodie52 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:43 am



It might even be a valve train component just rattling — faulty rocker arm, collapsed hydraulic lifter, etc. I'm assuming that the rattle sound continues even if the engine is running minus the fan belt for a few seconds? perhaps the source of the rattle — if it is a valve train component — would be obvious if you observed the rocker arms in operation with the valve covers removed. A faulty rocker in operation would be obvious in comparison with the operation of all of the others.

The rattling sound sounds somewhat random in nature, like a loose component, rather thann the repeated, cyclic sound you might expect from a faulty connecting rod bearing, so something like that. A mechanics stethoscope might help you to pinpoint the source of the sound or where it is emanating from.

The video below may be an example of the continuous, repeated, cyclic banging sound you might hear fro a bad connecting rod bearing. It also seems directly related to the increase or decrease in engine speed...



It is hard to focus on the location from watching the video, but even in the video it seems like the rattling sound is more distinct on the left side of your engine.

If it were a loose timing gear, The sound would emanate from the center front of the engine, at the front of the oil pan. The large aluminum gear is a press-fit on the end of the camshaft,held in place by a Woodruff key. I remember seeing a video of a loose gear where the center hole was so damaged that, when observing the loose gear with the oil pan off, the gear could be rocked back and forth by hand. But your engine sounds like it is running smoothly — which I doubt it would do if the timing gear attachment was that bad.
Timing Gears.jpg
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Going4joe wrote:...Jeff - hot valve adjust - do you mean while engine is running? If that is what you mean, than yes. Interestingly when the valves are adjusted this way, when you torque down on the valves in the #5 cylinder, the tap goes away for 5 seconds, then comes back. Torque it some more, and noise goes away then 5 seconds later, returns! All other cylinders respond to valve adjustment properly...

...Looking at the volume of posts from other Corvair owners on this site, and based on the experiences I have had owning them, these cars are a constant work in progress and are always needing attention somewhere. I think its great that you guys offer this invaluable service to those in need - people like me! Thank you for all your posts. I do eagerly read all that you contribute...
Even a new lifter could be defective. The center of the lifter mechanism is a hydraulic piston that is supposed to maintain zero clearance in the valve train. If you adjust the lifter for zero clearance and the valve train clatter goes away, but returns again after a few seconds, doesn't that apper to be a faulty lifter?

Properly maintained, I have found the Corvair to be a highly reliable car that does not require constant repair. I've been riding in Corvairs since I was 8 years old (1961), and my wife and I have driven them all over the USA and in Europe. They were my family's primary mode of transportation for much of my 24 years in the Air Force, and we had very few breakdowns on the road. But the cars are aging — well beyond their anticipated lifespan that GM engineers would have expected. And most Corvairs have passed through numerous owners — some who have let them decay badly. A new owner inherits the sins of all of the previous owners, and often discovers them only gradually as the owner learns to maintain and repair the Corvair. Knowledgeable Corvair mechanics are hard to find. Many owners attempt to "wing it", without referring to the shop manual or other quality guides and references. I taught myself how to overhaul my first Corvair engine, and then the Powerglide transmission, at age 16, using only the shop manual to guide me. These valuable references can be downloaded at no cost. They are your "bible" and are essential to the DIY shade tree mechanic. Professional Corvair-knowledgeable mechanics are expensive and rare. CORSA club chapter, if one is near you, can be a big help, as can Internet forums like this one. If you are willing to teach yourself, follow the manuals, and seek guidance and assistance from other Corvair owners you can be successful as you work to decipher the mysteries you inherited when you bought your Corvair.
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by terribleted » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:55 am

That is an odd rattle. You say turning down the #5 valves makes it go away for a second. Your problem is almost certainly in the number 5 head or valve parts. Possibly some nut or bit of debris in the head behind the valve, a loose valve seat, some other physical issue in valve, guide, lifter, etc. You have the head off (again), I would first turn it upside down and shake it to see if anything falls out of the intake. I would certainly not put it back on until I had disassembled at least the #5 valves and had a very close look at everything. I had a car once that made similar clattering sounds (though not as loud) that came and went and seemed like they could be effected by valve adjustment at that cylinder, but, the noise always returned. In my case it turnout to be a 1/2" long 1/2" head bolt lodged above the valve in the intake. It had been there for years.

You say tighten the valve noise stops, restarts, tighten stops again? Did you try a changing those lifters? If not you should have to see if it made a difference, could have been a broken lifter. Now that the engine is apart and it needs apparently cylinders, pistons, rings etc. , I would think a new cam and lifters before re-assembly would be a good plan anyway.
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66vairguy
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 66vairguy » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:19 am

Bill, I do sympathize with you. I too have had experiences with bad mechanics when I was young. It's why I learned to do my own engine rebuilds over the years (and bought a lot of tools). The kludge messes I find in old engines I buy (or recently rebuilds that don't run). Machine shops are also a problem now. I check EVERYTHING from a machine shop and all new parts. I do find errors. A shop I had good luck with BENT my new camshaft installing the cam gear! Yes they took care of it, but if I had not done an out of round check on "V" blocks and caught it I would have had problems in the engine. It's really time consuming to check everything and a lot of mechanics don't take the time.

When you tighten down the valve adjustment while running it will take up to a few seconds for the lifter to "bleed down" so the valve does not close all the way until the lifter bleeds down. Yes new valve lifters do fail right out of the box, I've had it happen. Not saying that is the issue, just one thing to consider. I would also pull the rocker off and inspect it for cracks - yes they do occasionally fracture.

I'd also do an oil pressure check. With a new engine at idle you should see 45PSI at idle before the oil heats up. Also check the cylinder compression. Did you install a new, or rebuilt, harmonic balancer? They are perishable (rubber binder fails) and should be replaced on a rebuilt engine to protect the crankshaft.

If all else fails I'd talk to knowledgeable Corvair folks in your area to find a good Corvair mechanic to sort out the engine. If all else fails you may have to ship it off.

Good luck.

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by bbodie52 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:01 am

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I've seen push rods inserted backward that resulted in a broken rocker arm. There is a small hole in the side of each push rod that is there to spray oil on the rocker arm to lubricate it. If the push rod is inserted upside down, the side hole will be near the hydraulic lifter instead of the rocker, and the rocker arm may not be getting adequate lubrication!

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by Going4joe » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:00 pm

Brad/Ted/66Vairguy - thank you very much for this HUGE response!! I have actually swapped out the lifters TWICE with new lifters each time: same issue (with the #5 cylinder and torquing the valves). It seems to make sense that the issue is in the head. I just took the cylinder heads to the machinist for another inspection. He looked at me like "what now?" And Im going to look at those rocker arms but I dont believe there are any cracks - but I will check. And i installed a NEW Harmonic Balancer. Mine was shot.

I do need someone (mechanic) who is more passionate about Corvairs. But if nothing else, I have learned quite a bit from this one, tearing it apart 3 times and its still not correct. Next car, I will get it right the first time! Thanks again guys. I will let you know what happens. Sorry for not being more communicative in the past. I actually put this whole car problem aside for 2 months (Jan/Feb) to focus on other things and didnt log on to this forum during that time either. You guys are awesome!

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 64powerglide » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:27 pm

Those rocker arms might not be cracked but they could be worn very bad. In that video I posted that Davemotohead1 has on Youtube he explains about the rocker arm, the pivot ball & nut. Go back & watch what he says & what to look for. :my02:
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 66vairguy » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:40 pm

64powerglide wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:27 pm
Those rocker arms might not be cracked but they could be worn very bad. In that video I posted that Davemotohead1 has on Youtube he explains about the rocker arm, the pivot ball & nut. Go back & watch what he says & what to look for. :my02:
True - also check to see if the rocker is hitting the pivot stud shaft (that holds the head on). If the valve/rocker geometry is off the rocker will hit stud. If the rocker is binding it can ride off center and leave mark on the side of the stud shaft. I've seen it a few times. Often makes the oddest noise and everything looks good until you pull off the rocker and inspect it, the ball, and the pivot stud.

I think it was motohead who found the rocker ball installed UPSIDE DOWN on one engine he took apart!

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by terribleted » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:21 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:40 pm
64powerglide wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:27 pm
Those rocker arms might not be cracked but they could be worn very bad. In that video I posted that Davemotohead1 has on Youtube he explains about the rocker arm, the pivot ball & nut. Go back & watch what he says & what to look for. :my02:
True - also check to see if the rocker is hitting the pivot stud shaft (that holds the head on). If the valve/rocker geometry is off the rocker will hit stud. If the rocker is binding it can ride off center and leave mark on the side of the stud shaft. I've seen it a few times. Often makes the oddest noise and everything looks good until you pull off the rocker and inspect it, the ball, and the pivot stud.

I think it was motohead who found the rocker ball installed UPSIDE DOWN on one engine he took apart!
I was also wondering if pushrod geometry might be in play here. It is possible particularly if the machining on the #5 cylinder valves is somehow different from t he rest of the engine. The rocker arm should contact from the lower third of the valve face through the upper third of the valve face and back as it runs thru its cycle from rest through full valve extension and back. Bad pushrod geometry can make some funny noises and cause early failure of valve train components.
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by Going4joe » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:53 pm

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your responses - I learned a lot about Corvair motors the past few months. But I want to share with you some good news finally!

I think I found the problem.

Took the right side cylinder head to my machine shop. I was certain the knocking sound was in there somewhere. I also brought the 6 pistons and the 6 jugs with me as well to have the machinist outfit the pistons with new Hastings rings and install them into the jugs. I showed the machinist the damaged rings and showed him the video of the car running with the knocking sound. He was scratching his head for a bit. Then said "that does sound like a problem in the head. But let me look at a few things." He was checking out the pistons and then said "notice the odd wear on this piston, around the slots where the rings go." There were black streaks on the side, like burn marks. I ask him which cylinder was this piston affiliated with? His response: #5 cylinder. Once again the #5 cylinder is getting all the attention (see prior posts). The original knocking sound we heard when I first got the car was in the #5 cylinder. We all thought the thrown bearing and bent rod was the problem and we fixed it (or so we thought) by replacing everything - NOS head, rebuilt rod, new rings and bearings, new piston.. but what we sadly did NOT ask about was - what could have caused all these broken pieces to happen? We put it all together and fired it up and the sound (albeit it was slightly different but still there) was STILL IN THAT #5 CYLINDER. I remember my mechanic saying "Bill - we replaced EVERYTHING! There is nothing more to replace!" Yet the noise continues to elude us. I kept thinking "why always in the #5 cylinder??" Then we find the rings are coming off the #5 piston - brand new rings! Popping off and bunching up inside the piston head! WHY? The car has about 2 miles on a pretty much NEW MOTOR. And the new rings are coming off that #5 piston! WHY?? I go over all this with the machinist. I tell him "we have to be missing something glaringly obvious here!" He agrees. Then he reaches under the workbench and pulls out a well worn small tool box. Opens it up and pulls out a micrometer. He measures across the face of the #5 piston. Then he measures another piston face. He nods his head, like all is okay. Then he measures the opening of one of the jugs. The #5 jug to be precise. Suddenly he mutters under his breath... "Oh my God.." He frantically starts measuring all the jugs. :assault:

The 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 pistons all measure out to be STANDARD BORE. The 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 jugs all measure out to be STANDARD BORE.

But....................The #5 jug measures out to be 0.020 bore. OVERSIZED. :eek:

THIS HAS TO BE THE PROBLEM. It all makes sense now - the piston is rattling around in an oversized jug (the knocking sound), the rings are falling off and causing the smoke to come out the exhaust (and scoring the outside of the piston), and the motor is running poorly! Im betting a prior owner or a stupid ass mechanic (or both) put a bored out jug in there, some half ass repair, and left the standard piston in the motor. This probably caused over time, the rod to bend and the bearing to spin. :angry:

Is this the mechanics oversite? The machinist fault/responsibility to measure these things? Am I working with a bunch of amateurs? :nono:

I ordered a new jug from Clarks today. Once I get it, I am going to reassemble the motor myself. I have removed the motor and split it three times in the past 6 months. I know this thing like the back of my hand. I am confident I can do this with little or no help. I am also sending my carbs out to a Corvair guy for rebuilding and bench testing/synching - this motor will start and purr like a kitten when Im done with this. I have a good feeling about this now!!

I will keep you all posted as to how this goes. Thank you all for your advice, help, you tubes (I watched them all - good stuff!). :ty:

Say a prayer for me! I am going rogue!

Bill

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by terribleted » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:35 pm

This was my first comment on this thread. "If the rings came out of the pistons and ended up wadded up inside the piston something was severely wrong with how the engine was built. What did you all do Install standard pistons in something like 60 over cylinders?"

It pays to measure everything during assembly. (The parts may not be what you ordered, the last guy screwed it up, any number of issues can be in play). This should have been caught when each piston was measured for diameter and matched to each cylinder for best fit within the factory specs (obviously this was not done because if it had been done the cylinder to piston clearance would have measured too large...out of spec per the manual). I would imagine this could also have been caught when checking the ring gaps prior to installing the rings at any point. There is a spec for the ring gap. You stick every new ring in its cylinder and square it with the top of the piston and then use a feeler gauge to measure the end gap. Usually the gap is near the minimum clearance given in the shop manual. Sometimes the gap is too small and the ring must be filed some to attain minimum gap. A standard ring in a 20 over cylinder would show an excessively large gap. I am guessing that this was never done in any ring /piston install either.

I am not calling you out specifically, but, instead I am YELLING AT ALL PEOPLE WHO WORK ON OUR CARS...SHOP MANUALS EXIST FOR A REASON. This kind of error is totally avoidable. All the necessary steps for rebuild are outlined in the GM shop manual for your Corvair and NEED TO BE FOLLOWED!! I have built 20+ Corvair motors and have the shop manual open at my side and follow along step by step each time. Every now and again I realize "wow I almost missed that step"... Anyone not using the manual for many repairs on our cars is simply asking for trouble. They are cheap and can save your butt. I am glad you found the issue...now you will finally be able to enjoy your car.

I would say that you were working with a bunch of amateurs, or at least folks that were not paying attention.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by bbodie52 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:56 pm

:goodpost: :pray: AMEN!

As I was reading the story of the machinist and his discovery of the oversized cylinder, I was wondering: "wouldn't checking the ring gap have revealed a mismatch with a standard piston ring sitting in an oversized cylinder?"

You said it all, with regard to emphasizing the active use of the shop manual! That is the reason I always attach sections af the shop manual and refer to it in my comments. I post shop manual wiring schematics while describing wiring circuits in the diagrams to show how they are used when performing troubleshooting and fault analysis. In the Air Force technicians are taught to always refer to the TECH ORDERS (maintenance manuals) when performing a maintenance procedure. The shop manual was my "bible" when I overhauled my first Corvair engine at age 16, and my Air Force training years later just reinforced that same attitude when always using the printed reference to guide me in my work.

There can be so much time and money wasted when people just "wing it" and stumble through a repair without ever looking in the shop manual! WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS... LOOK IT UP IN THE MANUAL! How much time and effort would be saved if each job STARTED with the shop manual, instead of only pulling it out as a last resort!
:doh:
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by Going4joe » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:17 am

Ted - yes you called it! I just didn't think that was the case. I assumed the machinist had measured everything!!! Isnt that what they are supposed to do?? I completely agree with both of what you said (Brad/Ted)! Being I was just the customer in the beginning of this "misadventure", I was not involved in every aspect of this rebuild - I physically wasn't there. The motor was in a shop. I had put my faith in these guys and "assumed" I was getting a quality rebuild - after all, I was paying for it! I helped with some light stuff but... I paid these guys for the complicated stuff. And the shop manual was there at everyone's fingertips throughout the process! But now, I'm reinvigorated with a new mission: put this together correctly, per the manual, recheck/remeasure every little thing, take my time, do not cut corners. I'm in no rush. If I have any questions or run into a snag, I may post it here for the real "experts" to answer. I already told the machinist his services were no longer needed. :nono: My mechanic/friend is letting me use his lift and tools at his garage, so Im lucky there. :wave:

You guys are awesome! :guitar: Thank you again! :ty: :ty:

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 66vairguy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:04 am

What a sad story and points out the incompetence you find in the old car hobby with "mechanics" and machine shops.
As I said before this is the reason I learned to do my own engine rebuilds and I check everything from a machine shop and find mistakes.

Congratulations for hanging in there and learning. I known folks who get mad and give up.

Davemotohead (on here) has some great stories of bad rebuilds he's taken apart to fix for people. My 66 convertible had STANDARD bearing on a crankshaft turned down 0.010"!!! Amazing it ran and this was done by a Corvair shop (now out of business - wonder why - LOL). I bought the car because the body was solid and the price was right. The differnential ring and pinion were set up so far off the gear surfaces were ruined - trash. No wonder the guy parked it. No complaints as I got the car for a fair price considering it's condition.

Good luck moving forward.

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by terribleted » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:11 am

Going4joe wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:17 am
Ted - yes you called it! I just didn't think that was the case. I assumed the machinist had measured everything!!! Isnt that what they are supposed to do?? I completely agree with both of what you said (Brad/Ted)! Being I was just the customer in the beginning of this "misadventure", I was not involved in every aspect of this rebuild - I physically wasn't there. The motor was in a shop. I had put my faith in these guys and "assumed" I was getting a quality rebuild - after all, I was paying for it! I helped with some light stuff but... I paid these guys for the complicated stuff. And the shop manual was there at everyone's fingertips throughout the process! But now, I'm reinvigorated with a new mission: put this together correctly, per the manual, recheck/remeasure every little thing, take my time, do not cut corners. I'm in no rush. If I have any questions or run into a snag, I may post it here for the real "experts" to answer. I already told the machinist his services were no longer needed. :nono: My mechanic/friend is letting me use his lift and tools at his garage, so Im lucky there. :wave:

You guys are awesome! :guitar: Thank you again! :ty: :ty:
I know you were a customer in this situation. That makes the situation even worse because a "pro" should not make such mistakes. The guy building the engine is the guy getting paid to do the measuring and torqueing so that the result is an engine that will give good lasting service. I feel your pain as well.

The first Corvair I purchased back in 1986 was a 65 Coupe. After a fashion it dropped a valve seat so I decided to re-build it during the head repair. I was already a very capable mechanic but I had never rebuilt an engine myself. I went to a local machine shop that a number of people recommended. His forte was racing motors for the local racers (country area with circle tracks and off road). I took him my parts and had him check out the crank (it was good), do a complete valve job, and evaluate the pistons (low miles60 oversized forged in nice shape) and hone cylinders. I told him that if after honing any cylinders were near outer clearance limits I needed to know so I could get new 60 overbore cylinders as needed. I had the GM manual with me with all the tolerance and clearance specs. I offered it to him and he acted like I thought he was stupid (that should have been my clue to run away). To quote you Going4joe "I had put my faith in these guys and "assumed" I was getting a quality rebuild - after all, I was paying for it!" I painstakingly assembled the parts he gave me back along with new cam, bearings, lifters, etc., etc.. The engine ran great for about 50 miles. Then it start blowing smoke like a destroyer during a sub attack. I disassembled it to find that all the piston ring gaps had rotated to be in alignment at the bottom of each cylinder and that the cylinders and piston skirts were scored some. I went and bought measuring tools and measured the cylinder diameters and piston diameters and found clearances of 3-4 times spec. (Why did I pay him to do this?) Cost me at least a set of pistons and rings and gaskets, not to mention the time to takes it all apart again. The machinist would not do anything for me and asked me to leave. I did find a machine shop I could trust. (the owner had Corvairs in the past) and they reworked the first guys crappy head work and mounted my new pistons. After that I drove that car well over 30k miles before moving on to a 64 convertible:)
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia

Going4joe
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by Going4joe » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:06 am

guys I appreciate all the comments. I will keep you posted as to how this goes, and im hoping to have a really well running 4 door that I can cruise around town this summer! I gotta start saving now for a new interior and a paint job.... :)

Bill

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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 66vairguy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:07 pm

Bill If you do the interior go with Clark's seat covers, if you want a stock look. I'm no expert, but a buddy talked me into taking a re-upholstery class (he had a bunch of kids) and it really paid off over the years. The 65 is the early style bucket seat and they are the worse buckets I've ever done. The latter "Strato" buckets are easy by comparison. Also the bucket seat foam will need replacing - a seat cover only lasts as long as the foundation as I learned in the class. Clark's sells a foam cushion that is excellent, but not cheap. You can buy the GM bucket seat foam pads for less, but I've seen them and they are a subpar compared to what Clark's sells. If you use an upholstery shop, make sure they lets you inspect the seat frames for broken springs and make sure they use new foam and tie down the listing (seam the pulls down between seat middle and side booster). A lot of the cheapy shops just stuff in whatever leftovers they have to pump up the old foam and leave the listing loose - no contour in seat.

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