Help desperately needed..

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Going4joe
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Help desperately needed..

Unread post by Going4joe » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:38 am

I will keep this brief, as there is a lot of detail here and this saga has been going on for so long now.... I have a 65 Monza 110 PG, 4 door. I bought the car a year ago with a knocking sound in the 5th cylinder. Took motor out and found a spun bearing and a bad rod in that 5th cylinder. So I went to town: Hired a mechanic and machinist. Replaced all the main/rod bearings, had crank sent out and redone, replaced a bad rod in that 5th cylinder w a reman from Clark, replaced all rings, pistons, lifters, had valve heads redone (replaced one head (passenger side) with a NOS 110 from Clarks) put it all back together and started it up. Knocking noise still there. Car is now smoking and runs poorly. Heres where I am editing this story down - over the next 3-5 months I have brought car to 3 mechanics, 2 machinists and had 2 guys from the North Jersey Corvair Club come and looked at the car in my driveway - nobody can figure it out. The carbs are both rebuilt and the NJ Corvair Club guys thought they werent in sync with each other. But that isnt causing the knocking noise. One guy told me the distributor was the issue - I bought and installed a rebuild distributor. Nothing changed.

This is turning into a nightmare: this past week I pulled the heads and jugs and pistons again. The new rings that I bought from Clarks were seperating inside the piston grooves. Two of the 6 pistons had the collapsed smoke rings wrapped up inside the piston! So that is probably the cause of the smoking issue. But why is it running poorly and is still knocking? One guy is saying maybe the cam? All the mechanics who have looked at this said cam was fine. I did not replace the cam. HELP?

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lostboy
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by lostboy » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:15 am

Where in NJ are you? How loud is the knock? Is it possible you have a lifter issue? I have a bad lifter that makes a ton of noise before it pumps up with oil and is then fine for quite some time as long as I don't let it sit for an extended period of time.


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bbodie52
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:02 pm

:dontknow: Maybe some of this info will help...
4carbcorvair wrote:Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:51 am

Usually. Usually. A rod or bearing noise gets louder as it warms up.

TROUBLESHOOTING ENGINE NOISES
A KNOCKING SOUND IN THE ENGINE IS MOST LIKELY CAUSED BY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING

1. PISTON SLAP: Makes a sharp metallic noise. Idle engine and short out each cylinder plug. The noise will disappear when plug with bad piston is shorted. Noise will also disappear at acceleration. This can be caused by worn or out of round cylinder, or broken piston ring. Correct problem by re-boring cylinder and/or replacing piston.

2. VALVE NOISE: Makes clicking or rattle noise. Caused by excessive wear on valve stem or lifter, out of adjustment, or stuck valve. Correct by adjusting valve clearance, replace worn valve or lifter, regrind cam, replace valve guide and /or valve. A stuck valve can sometimes be loosened by passing oil through the carburetor while engine is running.

3. ROD BEARING KNOCK: Makes sharp metallic noise similar to a piston slap. Detection is opposite of piston slap. Rod knock is not heard at idle. Knock becomes louder as engine speed is increased. Caused by excessive rod bearing clearance. Correct by adjusting rod bearing clearance to .0015 inches by removing shims. May require re-pouring rod bearing.

4. REAR MAIN BEARING KNOCK: Makes dull knocking or thud noise. Detected at speeds between 20 and 50 MPH. Knock will normally decrease or disappear while pulling or decelerating. Noise will be detected the loudest at normal driving speed, when not pulling or decelerating. Correct by adjusting bearing clearance to .001 to .0015 inches. If knock is excessive, crank should be checked for out of roundness. May need to re-pour all main bearings to correct.

5. TIMING GEAR KNOCK: usually the most difficult to diagnose. If gear is loose or badly worn it will knock in all ranges. Run engine slightly above idle speed. Slowly open and close throttle. Knock will continue to be present, but just as engine slows down knock will become a slight rattle. Remove timing pin and reinsert into timing hole on timing gear cover. Press timing pin tightly against timing gear and accelerate slightly above idle. Knock will significantly be reduced or disappear. Correct by replacing both timing gear and crank gear as a matched set. The two gears should have a backlash clearance of .003 to .004. If more than .009 inch backlash, an oversize (.005) timing gear should be installed.

6. WRIST PIN SLAP: This can not be detected by shorting out the cylinder plugs. Rapidly accelerate and decelerate the engine speed. The engine will pass through a certain speed range when the wrist pin will rattle at about the same pitch as a valve tappet noise. This can be corrected by installing a new wrist pin bushing in the rod or new wrist pin f badly worn. Wrist pin should fit the piston and connecting rod with a tight metal to metal fit. The pin can be pushed into the piston and rod with a slight pressure of the hand. Pin to rod clearance is .0003 to .0005 inches.
:link: viewtopic.php?t=7734


Jerry Whitt wrote:Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:38 am

Noises can be deceiving.

The right approach is to determine what is causing the noise. A stethoscope can be used to narrow the area causing the noise.

A piston pin is not very likely to give a noise. A more likely area would be a push rod, lifter, rocker arm combination making the noise, that goes away when warm.
Diagnosing Common Engine Noises

:link: https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/di ... ine-noises
Brad Bodie
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66vairguy
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 66vairguy » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:28 pm

Never heard the term "Smoke Ring" before.

64powerglide
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 64powerglide » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:52 pm

The new rings that I bought from Clarks were seperating inside the piston grooves. Two of the 6 pistons had the collapsed smoke rings wrapped up inside the piston! So that is probably the cause of the smoking issue.
I think you need to explain this in a little more detail. The rings were separating inside the piston grooves, 6 pistons had the collapsed smoke rings wrapped up inside the piston! :dontknow: Did you check the rings for clearance in the cylinders before installing them on the pistons??
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toytron
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by toytron » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:57 pm

I think he may be referring to the oil ring at the bottom groove of the piston.

Ed Stevenson

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terribleted
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by terribleted » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:01 pm

If the rings came out of the pistons and ended up wadded up inside the piston something was severely wrong with how the engine was built. What did you all do Installs standard pistons in something like 60 over cylinders? I had a machine shop one time match pistons and cylinders at around 9-10 thousandths clearance ( about 5 thousandths too much) and after a short time (like 50 miles) the engine starting smoking like a destroyer laying a sub screen. Even at this large clearance however all the rings stayed in their groves and only rotated so that the ring gaps aligned at the bottom of each cylinder. This amount of slop was enough to score all the piston skirts as well.

Sounds like you need to fully rebuild that engine the right way. The remanufactured crank may be fine, but sounds to me like new cylinders, pistons, rings, reman rods, main and rod bearings, new cam and lifters (if your in there and had noise issues it is silly to not spend the extra $$$ to not make the cam and lifters new). You say you replaced 1 head with a NOS head...what was done to the other head? Head should be machined to match (in this case it would likely mean removing head gasket seat material from the NOS head so it would match the freshly machine and rework head you were reusing), simply installing a good head on one side of an engine without matching the other side is asking for trouble. Find a good provider to rebuild your engine correctly even if it means shipping to a known Corvair vendor. Costs may very likely be over 4-5k so it pays to use someone that can do it right the first time even if there are some additional costs involved.
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66vairguy
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 66vairguy » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:17 pm

Good advice Ted - but after reading "going4joe" I find the whole thing hard to believe - April Fools a little late maybe?

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terribleted
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by terribleted » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:25 pm

Who knows? I love people who post here and never respond after multiple posts by helpful people. Sometimes you just do not know whether they ever saw the answers they requested or not. What the poster described seems to be very poor repair of a broken engine. I am wondering about this thread viewtopic.php?f=55&t=12869 9 replies and no response from poster. Sometimes I wonder if we just waste our time:/
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bbodie52
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:39 pm

:goodpost:

I think I know what you mean, but I try to tell myself that working to research a quality response, including references and illustrations to help clarify the answer, and improve communications will benefit other readers as well. I target my answer to benefit the person asking the question, but write in the hope that others may benefit as well.

I often learn a lot from just passively reading about other Corvair owners and their experiences. I really enjoy the information exchange often found here on the Corvair Forum.
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by terribleted » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:32 pm

bbodie52 wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:39 pm
:goodpost:

I think I know what you mean, but I try to tell myself that working to research a quality response, including references and illustrations to help clarify the answer, and improve communications will benefit other readers as well. I target my answer to benefit the person asking the question, but write in the hope that others may benefit as well.

I often learn a lot from just passively reading about other Corvair owners and their experiences. I really enjoy the information exchange often found here on the Corvair Forum.
Bingo!!
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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Going4joe
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by Going4joe » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:18 am

Thank you for all your responses, I much appreciate what you all have said and recommended. This is no April Fools hoax, but probably more the result of me hiring inept mechanics who mean well, but just do not have the proper experience or the understanding of a Corvair motor. I am not looking to waste anyone's time here in this forum - I just want this motor to be fixed and working properly! Plus I would rather talk about something positive or at least different than this ongoing boring story!

Ed - you are correct. Smoke rings (my mechanic calls them that) are the oil rings - in two of the six cylinders, the rings had come apart and wrapped up inside the piston heads. I am not trying to blame anyone but I did not install them - I am no mechanic. The cylinders are all standard. Nothing was bored out.

Lostboy - I'm in Westfield. All the lifters were replaced with new. I do not think the tapping noise is a lifter issue.

Brad- awesome response! I love the detail of all the possible noises and what may be causing them!! I still do not know which noise my issue falls under! I do not think its a piston slap or wrist pin slap or a bearing noise. Everything is tight inside the block - the wrist pins are not loose. TIming Gear knock.. I have to check this one out.

I made this short video of the "sound" prior to taking motor apart:

https://youtu.be/x9gBrwF_5u0

Looking at the volume of posts from other Corvair owners on this site, and based on the experiences I have had owning them, these cars are a constant work in progress and are always needing attention somewhere. I think its great that you guys offer this invaluable service to those in need - people like me! Thank you for all your posts. I do eagerly read all that you contribute.

Bill

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toytron
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by toytron » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:31 am

Brad thanks for all your responses. Ted please don't be disheartened at those who do not follow up. As Brad has stated there are many others who benefit from the responses. I appreciate ALL those who respond. We all operate at differing levels of understanding and sometimes it takes more than one person to explain something before the light bulb (or LED) comes on. I personally try and read all of the new posts as I can because I know I am not an expert at everything.

Ed Stevenson
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64powerglide
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 64powerglide » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:46 am

Sounds more like a rattle than a clicking. Did you do a hot valve adjust? Have you ran the engine without the fan belt? The exhaust sounds O K!!
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Going4joe
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by Going4joe » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:26 am

Jeff - hot valve adjust - do you mean while engine is running? If that is what you mean, than yes. Interestingly when the valves are adjusted this way, when you torque down on the valves in the #5 cylinder, the tap goes away for 5 seconds, then comes back. Torque it some more, and noise goes away then 5 seconds later, returns! All other cylinders respond to valve adjustment properly.

64powerglide
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Re: Help desperately needed..

Unread post by 64powerglide » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:51 am

Any stripped threads on the rocker stud or nut? It sounds like a loose rocker rattling.

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