I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
- SyntheticBlnkerFluid
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:32 am
- Location: Chebanse, IL
- Contact:
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
1968 Monza 140 4-Speed Posi
Rob
Chebanse, IL
Rob
Chebanse, IL
- bbodie52
- Corvair of the Month
- Posts: 11897
- Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:33 pm
- Location: Lake Chatuge Hayesville, NC
- Contact:
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
WinginEngineer wrote:...The old one that was in my barn find didn't seem to hold a charge. The starter just dragged and dragged, but never gave me a good spin. So i put in the new DG. Same result.
So i replaced the starter. The new starter fried itself as soon as i put it in and hit the key the first time. I pulled the new starter, removed the brushes from it, installed them in the old starter and put the old one back in. Still the same result...
So it appears not to be the battery or connecting cables, or the ring gear on the torque converter. What is left?
Back to the original... an apparent bad starter. Replaced with a remanufactured/used/??? starter that fried immediately upon the first attempt to use it. FAULTY REPLACEMENT STARTER? New brushes transferred to old starter... but no improvement. (The fault in the original starter could have been something other than bad brushes). Sooooo....
Is it possible that you have never had a good starter in the car from the beginning? If the replacement starter smoked upon your first attempt to us it, was it a remanufactured unit under warranty? You may need to find a good replacement starter to install, because it does not sound like you have a known good starter in the car yet!
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible
-
- Posts: 1604
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:18 pm
- Location: Kalamazoo Mi..
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Watch this, it's an 8 cylinder but you'll get the point. Don't do anything with the starter until you know the timing is correct.
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips
Kalamazoo, Mi..
Kalamazoo, Mi..
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Bodie, it is very possible that is the case. You would think a mechanical engineer who minored in automotive engineering could handle this job, but you'd be wrong.
When i dropped in this motor from the trunk, i put the starter and battery in it from a previously "running" car. It was dragging, so i replaced the battery. It was still dragging so i pulled the starter out and cracked it open. The only thing i saw other than some grime from age was the brushes worn down to the armatures. So rather than mess with it i ordered a reman starter from CA Corvair. Reman was all i could find.
I put the reman unit in, turned the key, and after half a revolution it stopped turning, started buzzing, then the billowing cloud of smoke came up from the bell housing. I pulled the "new" starter and cracked it open to find bare windings with a mass of charred insulation peeled off and stuck to the inner wall. Upon further inspection and some help from google i discovered it was a starter for a manual trans (there is a difference i learned).
So i pulled the shiny new brushes out, emory clothed the contact surface on the old rotor, and put the new brushes in the old starter. And of course it didn't work. It was better, but still didn't have enough umpf to turn worth a darn.
That's when the saga of cables, paint stripping, timing checks, oiling tricks, jump starting, battery swapping, and hair pulling began.
What else is there to a brushed dc motor other than the brushes and the windings? I mean this is stupid at this point. How bleeping hard can this be?!?!
When i dropped in this motor from the trunk, i put the starter and battery in it from a previously "running" car. It was dragging, so i replaced the battery. It was still dragging so i pulled the starter out and cracked it open. The only thing i saw other than some grime from age was the brushes worn down to the armatures. So rather than mess with it i ordered a reman starter from CA Corvair. Reman was all i could find.
I put the reman unit in, turned the key, and after half a revolution it stopped turning, started buzzing, then the billowing cloud of smoke came up from the bell housing. I pulled the "new" starter and cracked it open to find bare windings with a mass of charred insulation peeled off and stuck to the inner wall. Upon further inspection and some help from google i discovered it was a starter for a manual trans (there is a difference i learned).
So i pulled the shiny new brushes out, emory clothed the contact surface on the old rotor, and put the new brushes in the old starter. And of course it didn't work. It was better, but still didn't have enough umpf to turn worth a darn.
That's when the saga of cables, paint stripping, timing checks, oiling tricks, jump starting, battery swapping, and hair pulling began.
What else is there to a brushed dc motor other than the brushes and the windings? I mean this is stupid at this point. How bleeping hard can this be?!?!
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
1962 Corvair 700
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Check your ground strap to chassis. You will find corrosion which is causing heavy resistance
Sent from my iPhone using Corvair Forum mobile app
Sent from my iPhone using Corvair Forum mobile app
- bbodie52
- Corvair of the Month
- Posts: 11897
- Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:33 pm
- Location: Lake Chatuge Hayesville, NC
- Contact:
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
There is no difference between the starter used for the 1961-1969 Corvair with an automatic or manual transmission. They are identical and engage properly with the ring gear on the torque converter or on the clutch assembly pressure plate. The 1960 Corvair did use a different starter design, however.WinginEngineer wrote:...Upon further inspection and some help from google i discovered it was a starter for a manual trans (there is a difference i learned).
You probably had a defective remanufactured starter that burned out under load!
http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=86
Part number C2056N: 61-9 PREMIUM REBUILT STARTER-NO SOLENOID *INCLUDES NEW ARMATURE & NEW FIELD COILS
NOTICE: Price includes core value: $150.0. You will be issued a refund of $150.0 when you return the used part.
Weight: 18 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 86
Price: $ 313.80
Part number C2056NA (Other): 61-9 PREMIUM REBUILT STARTER-W/SOLENOID *INCLUDES NEW ARMATURE & NEW FIELD COILS
NOTICE: Price includes core value: $150.0. You will be issued a refund of $150.0 when you return the used part.
Note: This part is not a perfect match for C2056N.
Weight: 18 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 86
Price: $ 328.65
Part number C2056PN: 61-9 ULTIMATE REBUILT STARTER W/SOLENOID *INCLUDES NEW ARMATURE, FIELD COILS & NOSE
NOTICE: Price includes core value: $150.0. You will be issued a refund of $150.0 when you return the used part.
Weight: 18 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 86
Price: $ 341.80
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible
- SyntheticBlnkerFluid
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:32 am
- Location: Chebanse, IL
- Contact:
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Ok, sometimes it's better to have your starter rebuilt by a reputable starter/alternator place. They still exist and when I worked at the Vair Shop that's where Larry Claypool would send all his starters to be rebuilt.
There should be one local to you.
Sent from my iPhone using Corvair Forum mobile app
There should be one local to you.
Sent from my iPhone using Corvair Forum mobile app
1968 Monza 140 4-Speed Posi
Rob
Chebanse, IL
Rob
Chebanse, IL
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Before i spend $175 on ANOTHER starter before i even truly know the condition of this motor and generator, not to mention the transmission, is there any way to definitively test this one to make SURE it's the problem?
Autozone tells me their bench testing rig can't handle this one and simple spin bench test is useless since we know it works great until it sees a load.
This whole thing has just gotten way out of hand for what should have been an "easy" step in the resurrection process.
Btw, i'm not ignoring everyone that's talking about timing and grounds. I'm just extremely frustrated and don't want to be rude. My axillary ground and all the cleaning work i did means i KNOW the ground(s) are sufficient. When i put the distributor in i found tdc with a tig rod through the plug hole. The only thing i didn't do is pull the valve cover to ensure tdc on compression. That was bad, yes, but the test i performed earlier this week proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the timing is absolutely correct.
The motor spins great without compression which eliminates mechanical binding. The grounds and hot are perfect, the timing is as close as it can be without running, it has been polarized after EVERY power disconnect, and the battery tests perfect.
It almost HAS to be the starter at this point. I just want to KNOW it is before i spend that kind of money AGAIN.
Autozone tells me their bench testing rig can't handle this one and simple spin bench test is useless since we know it works great until it sees a load.
This whole thing has just gotten way out of hand for what should have been an "easy" step in the resurrection process.
Btw, i'm not ignoring everyone that's talking about timing and grounds. I'm just extremely frustrated and don't want to be rude. My axillary ground and all the cleaning work i did means i KNOW the ground(s) are sufficient. When i put the distributor in i found tdc with a tig rod through the plug hole. The only thing i didn't do is pull the valve cover to ensure tdc on compression. That was bad, yes, but the test i performed earlier this week proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the timing is absolutely correct.
The motor spins great without compression which eliminates mechanical binding. The grounds and hot are perfect, the timing is as close as it can be without running, it has been polarized after EVERY power disconnect, and the battery tests perfect.
It almost HAS to be the starter at this point. I just want to KNOW it is before i spend that kind of money AGAIN.
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
1962 Corvair 700
-
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:36 pm
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Sort of what is in most troubleshooting guides I look at.
Place starter in known good Corvair and check operation.
If satisfactory, continue search for issues with your car.
If not satisfactory replace starter.
Well, you asked.
Place starter in known good Corvair and check operation.
If satisfactory, continue search for issues with your car.
If not satisfactory replace starter.
Well, you asked.
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Anyone in the mesa area got a known running corvair they wanna play musical parts wit?
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
1962 Corvair 700
- caraholic4life
- Posts: 557
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:19 pm
- Location: Westminster, Maryland
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
After reading your post, I did some research and found the following from the Exide Battery website. (for what it is worth)
This is related to finding a battery for an early model Corvair. The following is essentially a "Cut and Paste".
http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-solu ... tery-trans
Part Number 27FX
Description EXIDE GLOBAL EXTREME
Details
Exide Global Extreme line features superior power and dependability. With our advanced Silver Shield Technology, Exide Global Extreme delivers long battery life and enhanced durability that keeps you charged even in harsh weather versus ordinary vehicle batteries.
Warranty, 40 Month Free Replacement Period
CCA 750, CA 900
RC (25A) 120, Ah Capacity (20hr) 70
Volts 12, Group Size 27F
Terminal Type A
Handle Yes
Length 12 - 1/2 in. Width 6 - 13/16 in. Height 9 - 1/32 in.
Weight 48.0 lbs.
Safety Data Sheet
BatteryWet112015v4.pdf
Product Specifications Sheet
Battery Specification Sheet 27FX.PDF
Technical Drawing
Globalextremecutaway.jpg
Design, features and specifications are subject to change without notice. We disclaim any representation or warranty, express or implied, concerning the data or recommendations, and in no event shall be liable for any loss or damage claimed to have arisen as a result of the use of this information.
http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-solu ... tery-trans
Part Number 27FS
Description EXIDE NASCAR SELECT
Details
Exide Nascar Select has the confidence and solid power you can always count on. Available in sizes that fit most vehicles on the road today.
Warranty 30 Month Free Replacement Period
CCA 750, CA 900
RC (25A) 120, Ah Capacity (20hr) 70
Volts 12
Group Size 27F
Terminal Type A
Handle, Yes
Length 12 - 1/2 in. Width 6 - 13/16 in. Height 9 - 1/32 in.
Weight 45.1 lbs.
Safety Data Sheet
BatteryWet112015v4.pdf
Product Specifications Sheet
Battery Specification Sheet 27FS.PDF
Design, features and specifications are subject to change without notice. We disclaim any representation or warranty, express or implied, concerning the data or recommendations, and in no event shall be liable for any loss or damage claimed to have arisen as a result of the use of this information.
This is related to finding a battery for an early model Corvair. The following is essentially a "Cut and Paste".
http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-solu ... tery-trans
Part Number 27FX
Description EXIDE GLOBAL EXTREME
Details
Exide Global Extreme line features superior power and dependability. With our advanced Silver Shield Technology, Exide Global Extreme delivers long battery life and enhanced durability that keeps you charged even in harsh weather versus ordinary vehicle batteries.
Warranty, 40 Month Free Replacement Period
CCA 750, CA 900
RC (25A) 120, Ah Capacity (20hr) 70
Volts 12, Group Size 27F
Terminal Type A
Handle Yes
Length 12 - 1/2 in. Width 6 - 13/16 in. Height 9 - 1/32 in.
Weight 48.0 lbs.
Safety Data Sheet
BatteryWet112015v4.pdf
Product Specifications Sheet
Battery Specification Sheet 27FX.PDF
Technical Drawing
Globalextremecutaway.jpg
Design, features and specifications are subject to change without notice. We disclaim any representation or warranty, express or implied, concerning the data or recommendations, and in no event shall be liable for any loss or damage claimed to have arisen as a result of the use of this information.
http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-solu ... tery-trans
Part Number 27FS
Description EXIDE NASCAR SELECT
Details
Exide Nascar Select has the confidence and solid power you can always count on. Available in sizes that fit most vehicles on the road today.
Warranty 30 Month Free Replacement Period
CCA 750, CA 900
RC (25A) 120, Ah Capacity (20hr) 70
Volts 12
Group Size 27F
Terminal Type A
Handle, Yes
Length 12 - 1/2 in. Width 6 - 13/16 in. Height 9 - 1/32 in.
Weight 45.1 lbs.
Safety Data Sheet
BatteryWet112015v4.pdf
Product Specifications Sheet
Battery Specification Sheet 27FS.PDF
Design, features and specifications are subject to change without notice. We disclaim any representation or warranty, express or implied, concerning the data or recommendations, and in no event shall be liable for any loss or damage claimed to have arisen as a result of the use of this information.
1962 95 FC Van
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe
1965 Monza Coupe
1965 Monza Convertible
Mid Engine enthusiast &
Prior Kelmark Owner
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe
1965 Monza Coupe
1965 Monza Convertible
Mid Engine enthusiast &
Prior Kelmark Owner
-
- Posts: 1604
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:18 pm
- Location: Kalamazoo Mi..
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
You really need to tow it to see if it will start before shucking out money for something not needed. If it does start then you can put a timing light on it & get that set then go back to the starter problem. When I was a kid a friend had a 53 Chevy with a powerglide, made a stop one night and when we went to leave the battery was dead so 5 guys pushed it up a grade then turned a corner & there was a downgrade & we push started it. Just got it rolling good & put it in low range & it took right off.
Last edited by 64powerglide on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips
Kalamazoo, Mi..
Kalamazoo, Mi..
- terribleted
- Posts: 4584
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:36 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Contact:
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
WinginEngineer I never saw your answer to a question I asked in the other post. Did you operate the starter with the plugs in but ignition disconnected (coil wire removed)? What was the result? If it is a dragging rotation then you would almost certainly have a starter or connection/wiring issue (corrosion on connections?). If it does not drag then you are back to a likely mistimed ignition.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/
Located in Snellville, Georgia
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/
Located in Snellville, Georgia
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Terribleted, sorry, i had mentioned it earlier in the other thread. Yes i did. It spun like a top. So smooth i thought i'd nail it. Then i put the plugs back in and right back where i started.
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
1962 Corvair 700
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
Nevermind, i just read you question again. I though you were asking if i ran it with the plugs out. I did run it with no ignition though and the same result. I actually forgot to bring my key last saturday so i pulled the plug from the ignition switch and hot wired it for my testing. There were many attempts where i only jumpered the starter and not the ignition and there was no difference at all
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
1962 Corvair 700
- terribleted
- Posts: 4584
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:36 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Contact:
Re: I used the battery everyone uses and it don't work!
So with the plugs in and no ignition voltage it lurches, yup that would be an issue in the starter system. LOL you need a known good starter to swap in. If it works then starter if it doesn't then bad ring gear, or bad wiring/connections/or battery. Get it cranking properly without voltage to the ignition and then if it cranks all hard and uneven look at the timing again. Too bad good rebuilt starters are so darn expensive..maybe there is a local auto electric shop that can fix one from the ones you have? Used to be one near me but they are gone now.
Actually when I think about it Clark's rebuilt unit is not terrible at $170 after core refund considering how much alternators, starters and the like have gone up in the last few years.
Actually when I think about it Clark's rebuilt unit is not terrible at $170 after core refund considering how much alternators, starters and the like have gone up in the last few years.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/
Located in Snellville, Georgia
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/
Located in Snellville, Georgia