Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

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WinginEngineer
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Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by WinginEngineer » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:35 pm

I alluded to this issue at the end of my last post in my last thread, but I haven't touched the car since. I finally got on it today.

THE PROBLEM:
I have an engine of unknown condition that was found in the trunk of my '62. Cleaned it up and installed it. Had some issues at first, but with all those sorted I wound up with a non-running engine.

I have 60psi average compression. Not gonna run like that. If i pour some oil in the cylinders compression jumps to 120psi. All tests performed @ WOT.

So my brain says rings. Feel free to interject if you have another suggestion.

THE QUESTION:
I do NOT want to pull the pistons/rods. I'm good with the heads, jugs, and rings, but the minimal space in the crankcase is not my idea of a good time. I know what the manual says to do, but i don't want to.

Now this is my first corvair, but not my first air cooled motor by a long shot. Every other motor i've ever done this on you slip the jugs on with the crankcase/pistons assembled.

I would very much like to do this on the corvair.

Has anyone done this or heard of a way to do it? The other motors i've done it on have deep chamfers or long tapers at the bottom of the jug to facilitate it. This obviously does not.

I'm all ears! Hit me!
Kevin - Maricopa/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700

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terribleted
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by terribleted » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:28 pm

This can be done with a narrow ring compressor that separates for removal. I have done it. The ring compressor is a band type about 2" tall that the end of the band disconnects so it can be pulled out from around the base of the piston after the rings are inside the cylinder. Doing this is a bit cumbersome and great care must be taken that the rings do not catch on any present rod clearance notches in the cylinders during jug installation. To me it is easier to just do it conventionally with the piston jug assemblies pre-mated and then installed to the engine. The only times I have used this method is for re-assembly of a cylinder that got pulled out past the rings during head work. Access to the rod nuts is tight and annoying but not terrible with a 1/4 drive ratchet and short socket and a small torque wrench. Most time when I have had rings that need to be replaced the piston skirts are worn enough that the pistons really should be replaced as well and of course then there is no choice but to remove the rods for piston install. I can not remember for sure but I am thinking Clark's Corvair parts sold me the narrow ring compressor that I have.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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Located in Snellville, Georgia

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b74eqcm
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by b74eqcm » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:42 am

I wouldn't give up on it just yet. 60 psi compression on an engine that has been sitting for a long time may not be as bad as you think. The oil test shows the valves are probably ok. You may have some rings that are stuck, and/or rust on the cylinder walls.

I have run engines with only 60 psi compression. I bet this one would start. And a few minutes of run time may significantly improve the compression numbers. What do you have to lose?
Jim Thomas
Bethel, VT
63 Monza Coupe

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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by Wagon Master » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:18 am

Not wanting to come off the wrong way but for next time, this 60 p.s.i. compression could have been discovered laying on the floor or on a test stand, and been dealt with at that time. It will be tighter to re-ring the pistons in the car with rods attached but vairy doable. Just follow the advise above. Good Luck.

WinginEngineer
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by WinginEngineer » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:06 am

Terribleted, is it the "wrinkle band" compressor tool? That seems to be the only one i can find. It looks like it opens, but none of the places selling it SAY it opens.

B74eqcm, i am absolutely all for another hail marry before tearing into this engine. Do you have suggestions on how to start it? We have cranked and cranked and cranked. Tweeked timing, adjusted points, dumped raw fuel down the carbs, sprayed gobs of starting fluid... she just won't come to life. I've only even gotten her to cough one time and then it went away and never came back. So.... suggestions?

Wagon Master, i know :(. And that was suggested :(. Here's the thing: how do you bench tecst a motor that is out of the car with no transmission? I just couldn't think of a practical way. So i balls'ed it. I know i know, that turned out SOOOO well. That said, for future reference, how would you have done it?
Kevin - Maricopa/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700

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bbodie52
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:32 am

The illustration below is from the 1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual (Page 6-25) and shows the compact narrow ring compressor mentioned in an earlier post. NOTE: If you do remove the connecting rods from the crankshaft, a 3/8" Drive Beam Type Inch Pound Torque Wrench has a small head that will usually fit in the compact area in the crankcase to properly torque the connecting rod bearing caps.
Image

:chevy:
Piston Ring Install.jpg
Here are a few examples of modern tools (from Clark's Corvair Parts and Amazon.com) that could be used to install pistons as shown in the shop manual

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... ge=TOOLS-5
Image
Part number C5275: RING COMPRESSOR-WRINKLE BAND STYLE

Weight: 0 lbs 8 oz
Catalog Pages(s): T,5
Price: $ 22.00


Lisle 21700 Wrinkle Band Ring Compressor
Price: $13.57
:link: https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-21700-Wrin ... compressor
Image

OTC 4838 6-Piece Piston Ring Compressor Set
Price: $50.93
:link: https://www.amazon.com/OTC-4838-6-Piece ... compressor
Image
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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66vairguy
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by 66vairguy » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:24 am

If I recall correctlty the manual says you can load the pistons from the bottom of the cylinder. Works on the early models, BUT on the longer stroke engines (64 and later) the cylinders are notched at the bottom so you CAN'T load the pistons from the bottom. Oddly the 65 manual was NOT corrected and I've seen one newly rebuilt engine with a few broken rings (the rings can catch the notch during loading from the bottom).

If your engine is an early short stroke with the full cylinder bottoms you can load them from the bottom. HOWEVER I would suggest trying to start the engine and see how the old rings seat first. If the cylinder pressure does not improve, then that engine is worn out and needs a full rebuild. Yes it's a lot of work, but I've seen folks just install new rings, then they get rod knock, then a valve seat drops - etc.

WinginEngineer
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by WinginEngineer » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:33 am

When i found this engine in the trunk, i was about 1/4 of the way through reassembling a basket case motor that came with my other '62 (now my parts car). That engine, i was told, was a runner but had sticky valves, which is why it was torn down. While removing the pistons i discovered my dislike for the process, but i digress.

The real discovery of note was that there was visible play in the rod bearings. At least 0.010" radially and 0.020" axially. Everything in that engine was discolored, caked, dark, stuck, and loose. A full rebuild was not in my financial cards, but would clearly be needed just make that engine run at all. In my dispair i popped the trunk lock on the other car to find the current mark.

This engine was in tact minus carbs and upper tins. I pulled it out and set it on a bench to crack open the top. It was like a piece of jewelry inside. Everything a nice golden steel color with no crud and no play in anything. The only thing i found from my "external" inspection was the rockers seemed aweful loose.

I adjusted the rockers per the manual, took the painted tins and rebuilt carbs from the other moror and stuck it in the car.

The car has 76000 on the clock. I have no reason to believe those miles are not true. I also have no reason to believe the trunk motor is not original to this car.

So with a 76000 mile motor that looked THAT good inside, i tend to agree with ya'll that it may not be worn out that bad.

So... how do i get the old girl to come to life to wake everything up and possible seat the rings/blow out the cobwebs?

Because without that i'm looking at rings, which i don't want to do.
Kevin - Maricopa/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700

64powerglide
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by 64powerglide » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:26 am

I had a Plymouth Duster years ago & blew the engine, bought a used one at a salvage yard. Was told it was a good running engine, wouldn't start with just cranking it so I called a friend who rebuilt engines & told him was it was doing & he came over & we towed it. I let the clutch out around 30 MPH in second gear and it started right up. My friend said sometimes the starter just won't pump up enough oil to the rings after a few years. It's worth a try. :my02:
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips

Kalamazoo, Mi..

WinginEngineer
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by WinginEngineer » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:30 am

Its a powerglide... push start no good.
Kevin - Maricopa/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700

64powerglide
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by 64powerglide » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:39 am

Yes the powerglide will push start. :tu:
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips

Kalamazoo, Mi..

WinginEngineer
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by WinginEngineer » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:40 am

How fast do you have to move it and how much damage will that do to the tranny?
Kevin - Maricopa/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700

64powerglide
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:18 pm
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by 64powerglide » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:49 am

This is from my owners guide. Left click the image to see it better.
Attachments
IMG_20170122_0001.jpg
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips

Kalamazoo, Mi..

martyscarr
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by martyscarr » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:00 pm

WinginEngineer wrote:
Here's the thing: how do you bench tecst a motor that is out of the car with no transmission? I just couldn't think of a practical way. So i balls'ed it. I know i know, that turned out SOOOO well. That said, for future reference, how would you have done it?
You set the engine on the floor or on an old tire, install a starter using 2 lug nuts as spacers. Hook up wiring and a fuel line to a gas can, and use a remote starter switch. Here's a wiring diagram, but I don't bother hooking up the generator/alternator as I'm usually only going to run it for a short while. http://www.grumpysperformance.com/Engin ... erator.jpg I usually do a leakdown test on an unknown engine. Easier to do than a compression test and can tell you a lot.

Sorry to hear of your low compression woes. The wrinkle bank compressors I have seen all come aprart and will work on installing the jugs on the unremoved pistons. It can be tricky with the notched cylinders, but can be done. I prefer the band type ring compressor shown in the last photo of Brad's post, the bands come in different sizes and it's faster than the wrinkle band but of course it's more $.

You could also try filling the cylinders with diesel and letting it sit for a few days, you might get lucky and increase compression enough to fire it up - after draining the diesel and filling with fresh oil of course.

HTH and good luck
Marty Scarr
Last edited by martyscarr on Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WinginEngineer
Posts: 51
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Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by WinginEngineer » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:02 pm

The ring gear for the starter is on the torque converter...
Kevin - Maricopa/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700

martyscarr
Posts: 247
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Location: Eugene, OR

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Unread post by martyscarr » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:22 pm

Oops, sorry, I only have manual trans cars.

Have you reached out to the local club? Lots of Corvair guys in the Phoenix area.

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