Ignition timing question

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cwhunt
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Ignition timing question

Unread post by cwhunt » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:21 pm

I recently bought '63 Monza Spyder that has its original 150hp turbo charged engine. The previous owner installed an electronic ignition kit and the engine runs decent, but I finally timed the engine. I have previously pulled the spark plugs and saw that the engine was running rich, so I adjusted the carb.

I know that the timing for my engine should be 24 degrees BTDC, which is at the end of the timing plate on the engine. The timing mark was a good 1/2 inch beyond the plate. I would imagine it would be about just shy of 40 degrees BTDC. I wouldn't think the engine would run being that far off.

If I am reading the manual right the No. 1 cylinder should be the first spark plug on the right as facing to the front of the car standing behind the engine. Is that correct?

Could there be something off due to electronic ignition installed?

I have no adjusted the timing yet. Waiting on opinions and knowledge.

Thanks for y'alls expertise.

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Christopher Hunt
San Diego, CA
'63 Monza Spyder 150HP Turbo

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bbodie52
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by bbodie52 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:46 pm

It is unusual that the timing would be adjusted that far advanced. The 1963 engine does not have a harmonic balancer, so a slipping outer ring and timing mark would not be an issue. The registration of the steel pulley and its timing mark is held in-place with a crankshaft woodruff key. What type of electronic breakerless ignition is installed?

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The distributor model is stamped on the outside of the distributor housing. For the 1963 turbocharged engine it should be 1110298. This distributor should have only a pressure retard device with no vacuum advance. Engine idle speed when checking timing should be 850 RPM. Centrifugal advance is supposed to begin at 3900 RPM, and should be fully engaged by 4500 RPM. (You might check its operation to ensure that the springs are fully returning the centrifugal advance to its static position and that the mechanism is not sticking).

The Carter YH carburetor has a marginal reputation and is somewhat difficult to tune and maintain. It is sensitive to excessive fuel pressure from the fuel pump which should be checked. The use of fuel pressure regulator is often recommended. To supplement the factory shop manual, the following book may be helpful in tuning and adjusting the carburetor...

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:link: https://www.amazon.com/Identify-Rebuild ... =carter+yh

How to Identify and Rebuild Carter YH Carburetors Used on Corvair Turbocharged Engines
Paperback – April 26, 2010
by Bob Helt (Author)

===================================================================================================

Actron CP7803 Vacuum and Fuel Pressure Tester Kit
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:link: http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7803-Vac ... GWSMD1S9SB

Here is a link for ordering the recommended Holley fuel pressure regulator...

:link: http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/12-804 ... 1797507184

Holley 12-804 - Holley Fuel Pressure Regulators — $29.67
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Holley#510-12-804

Standard Pressure Regulator
Chrome Finish
For use with gasoline
Port Size: 3/8'' NPT Inlet/Outlet
1 to 4 PSI
Includes Mounting Bracket

The websites listed in the following link may be useful to you...

Common and Useful Corvair Websites

Corvair Forum :link: viewtopic.php?f=225&t=6007

:dontknow: I would like to encourage you to expand on your initial post and tell us more about yourself, your Corvair, and your goals for your Corvair. If you can describe your personal assessment of your mechanical skills and abilities, that would help a lot. Members of the Corvair Forum love to be helpful in assisting other Corvair owners with technical support and advice, but it helps a lot if we have some understanding of your technical background and mechanical abilities, Corvair-related knowledge, etc. Helping us to know more about you and your Corvair will help us to write comments to you that are tailored to your needs and experience. Pictures are great too, because pictures of your Corvair will help us to visualize where you are with your Corvair and its condition at the present time. Knowing your location is also useful, because knowing where you live can sometimes suggest possibilities to resolve some issues or problems.
Attachments
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6a - Engine.pdf
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6a - Engine
(1.26 MiB) Downloaded 11 times
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 7 - Engine Tune-Up.pdf
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 7 - Engine Tune-Up
(899.84 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 8 - Electrical Systems.pdf
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 8 - Electrical Systems
(2 MiB) Downloaded 8 times
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 9 - Fuel & Exhaust Systems.pdf
1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 9 - Fuel & Exhaust Systems
(3.83 MiB) Downloaded 15 times
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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cwhunt
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:21 pm

Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by cwhunt » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:58 pm

I am in the San Diego area and have attending a club meeting and plan on joining next month. I am experienced when it comes to mechanical issues, however, I do not have experience with Corvair engines or engines that predate the 90s other than a '87 Buick. I am aiming for a decent restore of the car. It has a great body and decent engine and tranny, but it is in rough shape interior wise and paint wise. I am building a website dedicated to it and the work involved. Visit it at http://www.huntscorvair.com to see more photos of the car.

Back to the issue at hand. It doesn't look to be the original distributor on the car and it seems to me to have a pressure retard. There is a arm that swings the timing plate in the distributor which is connected to the pressure retard. I tried tugging on the swing arm and it is very hard to move. Could the arm just be frozen on the retard side which has the timing set for when its a high rpms? I am thinking that is what the issue is, but I am no expert.

I also will post a link to a youtube video that you can see what the timing light revealed.

I also have a picture of the electronic ignition device installed.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lfuaqN3vt0

Once again, Thanks for the help



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Attachments
20161129_140040.jpg
Christopher Hunt
San Diego, CA
'63 Monza Spyder 150HP Turbo

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bbodie52
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by bbodie52 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:36 am

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Click the image with your mouse to enlarge the image for better viewing...
1963 Details.jpg
Some observations:
  • The engine has been upgraded with an alternator in place of the original generator, and with a lightweight magnesium fan and belt guide from a 1964 Corvair (reduces stress on the belt as engine speed changes).
  • The "adaptation" of an incorrect battery with side-mount terminals and bungee cord hold-down might be worth replacing with a battery that is a better fit.
  • The electronic ignition is a Pertronix Ignitor II http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx I have attached a copy of the installation instructions below. You should check the red wire from the ignition module to be sure that it is wired to bypass the resistor wire in the wiring harness (the electronics module requires a full 12 V DC power source, as described in the instructions and as shown in Fig. 2). Also, the breaker plate arm would move to the left to retard the timing (the rotor turns clockwise) and seems to be at rest in the full-right position. Someone has added a ground wire between the breaker plate and the distributor housing, and it appears to be possibly partially obstructing the movement path of the breaker plate arm that is attached to the pressure retard device. The function of the pressure retard device is important, as proper timing and pressure retard (and Premium fuel) is the only thing that protects your engine from damage under turbocharged boost — preventing detonation and potential damage to pistons. Two phillips head screws hold the pressure retard device in-place. It can be easily removed to check freedom of motion of the breaker plate. A small amount of air pressure can test the integrity of the pressure retard device, but the breaker plate must also be free to move.
  • The picture shows a riveted steel crankshaft pulley, which is correct for a 1962-1963 turbocharged engine. 1964 and later engines were fitted with a harmonic balancer. The outer ring and timing mark on the harmonic balancer could possibly slip out of position with age — which could make the timing mark inaccurate. That is not the case with your engine.
Click the image with your mouse to enlarge the image for better viewing...
Pertronix Ignitor II Instructions (page 1).jpg
Pertronix Ignitor II Instructions (page 2).jpg
1963 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring (Ignition Circuit).jpg
1963 Corvair Pertronix Installation.jpg
1963 Corvair Pertronix Installation
If you wish to install a modern battery that will fit your battery box...

:wrench: Here is some additional info on the use of the Interstate 51 battery...
freedo wrote:you have to make sure your tie down is tight or it will slide side to side. or you can make some plastic pieces to wedge it into shape. but interstate are strong good batteries. when i blew the motor up i had the lights on and the interior light on for almost a hour and when i went to start it up the next day it cranked right over
It appears that the only difference between the Interstate MT-51R and the MT-51 is the location of the positive and negative battery terminals...

MEGA-TRON 51-R AUTOMOTIVE BATTERY 75 MONTHS 500 CCA
:link: http://www.interstatebatteries.com/p/au ... 2147384906
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MEGA-TRON 51 AUTOMOTIVE BATTERY FIVE-YEAR PERFORMANCE 500 CCA
:link: http://www.interstatebatteries.com/p/au ... 2147384906
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As shown in the picture below, the correct battery appears to be the Interstate MT-51R, which places the positive terminal correctly on the right when the battery is placed in the battery area with the terminals facing the engine.

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Attachments
Pertronix 91162A Ignitor II Instructions.pdf
Pertronix 91162A Ignitor II Instructions
(1.01 MiB) Downloaded 6 times
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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cwhunt
Posts: 49
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by cwhunt » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:40 pm

The first thing I did was replace the battery with one that sat in the battery tray.
1480537503364.jpg
I examined the electronic ignition and you were correct. The wires were preventing movement. I corrected the issue and now it freely moves.

However, does it take a lot of pressure for the pressure retard to move? I am able to blow into it and it doesn't leak and moves just a tiny bit like 1/100 of an inch (not exact measurement). I then pulled on the arm pretty good and got it to move about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. Didn't want to pull harder as I don't want to break it (if not already).

Any advice on how to get a replacement one? I've looked on all the corvair part websites and can't find one. I am awaiting word from the corvair ranch to see if they have any avaliable.

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Christopher Hunt
San Diego, CA
'63 Monza Spyder 150HP Turbo

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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by SteveH » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:55 pm

CORSA Member #034095
65 Corvair Corsa "Field Find" 140-4, 4 speed, Hardtop, Telescoping wheel. Rear Speaker
65 Corvair Corsa Automatic 140-4, Coupe

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bbodie52
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by bbodie52 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:24 pm

The Corvair pressure retard device is made from "unobtainium", for the most part. You may find a used one on eBay or from some other source, but even if you find one that is functional, they have a bad reputation and are somewhat unreliable. If it fails, your first warning sign may very well be melted piston following a prolonged period of turbo boost! (It happened to me in my 1965 Corsa coupe back in 1971. It was a beautiful summer day in Southern California, and I was driving my Corsa up a lengthy highway upgrade with the windows down — enjoying the feeling of turbo power as I cruised up the Conejo Grade from Camarillo to Newbury Park at about 70 mph or so. As I neared the crest — BANG! A hole in one! Turbo Corvairs do not necessarily do well on warm days under prolonged turbocharger boost. :angry: Short periods are OK, but you are gambling if you drive under boost for a long period of time. You may not hear the death rattle of detonation, and there are no sensors or computer-controlled engine management system to protect your engine.

Recommended Reading...

Turbo engine care and maintenance
:link: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2570&p=17613&hilit ... ard#p17613

Clark's Corvair Parts online catalog does list a pressure retard, but they are discontinued or perpetually out of stock. The catalog page below describes the pressure retard device to help you to identify them when you see them...

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... in&page=51
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cwhunt wrote:However, does it take a lot of pressure for the pressure retard to move? I am able to blow into it and it doesn't leak and moves just a tiny bit like 1/100 of an inch (not exact measurement). I then pulled on the arm pretty good and got it to move about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. Didn't want to pull harder as I don't want to break it (if not already).
1/16" to 1/8" does not sound like enough. The distributor chart above says 9° retard at 2 psi boost pressure (1962-1963), or 6.5° retard at 3.5 psi (1964), or 8° retard at 3.7 psi (1965-1966).
======================================================================================================
EM Battery Connection.jpg
The primary battery ground strap is supposed to "daisy chain" from the battery negative terminal, to a bolt attached to the car chassis frame, and then on to the engine. It is important to provide BOTH a chassis ground connection AND a direct connection to the engine, since the engine is electrically isolated from the chassis by the front and rear rubber engine mounts. The starter motor draws more current than any other electrical component in the car, so it needs a thick ground cable from the engine to the battery to provide the starter motor with a solid ground return path that can carry the amperage drawn by the starter motor. The generator also needs a good ground. But all other electrical components throughout the car (headlights, heater fan, horn, radio, etc.) are grounded via the chassis ground. A secondary 10-12 gauge wire (or thicker) should be connected between the car chassis and the battery ground terminal.

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Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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cwhunt
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by cwhunt » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:28 pm

The negative cable from the battery goes to a heavy duty bolt into the body just below the battery and there is another cable that connects there and goes to the engine block.

If I can't find the pressure retard, what will in need to get to correct the system? New distributor with electronics?

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Christopher Hunt
San Diego, CA
'63 Monza Spyder 150HP Turbo

cwhunt
Posts: 49
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by cwhunt » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:24 pm

After a good amount of searching forums etc. I finally found that clarks sells a reproduction pressure retard unit. Part no. C13269 if anyone else needs to know part number.

Is it just me that has issues finding stuff through Clark's online catalog? I seem to forget all their different catalogs chopped together.

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Christopher Hunt
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'63 Monza Spyder 150HP Turbo

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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by acarlson » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:44 am

You can just search Clarks website. Search for "turbo" or "retard" or "part name" and you'll usually get a selection of items available including catalog page numbers.

Alec
1965 Regal Red Corsa 4 Speed Turbo Convertible

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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by miniman82 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:07 pm

Just to add on to what Brad has been saying,


I don't regard the pressure retard units very highly, though I have no experience with the Clark repop. The (stock) one in my car gave me nothing but grief, so I gave in and installed a crank triggered ignition which serves me very well. You can adjust it from the driver's seat with a laptop, very easy to tune. If you intend on driving your car on boost regularly, and there's no reason you shouldn't after all, it's something you should look into. Many different ways to skin the timing control cat, but the stock style can would not even be my 3rd choice because it's so unreliable.
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bbodie52
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:43 am

I sent the following comment/complaint to Clark's Corvair Parts this morning. I'll let you know if I get any response...
:dontknow:
CATALOG FEEDBACK...
C13269 - REPRO PRESSURE RETARD #224 62-64 TURBO

It appears that Clark's does sell a badly needed pressure retard device for the 1962-1964 turbo Corvair, but it cannot be found using the search function with the word "retard" or "pressure". Such a search only points to page 51 and the out of stock CX3170 or out of stock CX3169.

ONLY THROUGH THE COMMENTS ON THE CORVAIR FORUM (BELOW) WAS I ABLE TO FIND OUT ABOUT PART NO: C13269! No search will reveal it on your website, except for a specific search using this part number (if you already know it). If this critical part is in-fact available through Clark's Corvair Parts, why is it so well hidden on your website??? I would suggest an edit of page 51 in your online catalog to reflect part number C13269 as a viable alternative to the perpetually unavailable CX3169 and CX3170. Also, is there a pressure retard device available for 1965-1966 turbo Corvairs? Finally, clicking on the page link for C13269 takes the customer to page 33, which DOES NOT list this item!

FROM THE CORVAIR FORUM...
"After a good amount of searching forums etc. I finally found that clarks sells a reproduction pressure retard unit. Part no. C13269 if anyone else needs to know part number.

Is it just me that has issues finding stuff through Clark's online catalog? I seem to forget all their different catalogs chopped together."
I did discover the following obscure entry on the Clark's website, following the "OUT OF STOCK" part number references for CX3169 or CX3170. At the very bottom of the page, in the "ADDITIONAL ITEMS" section as a part of the discontinued listing for C871R...
Part number C871R (Regular): 62-66 TURBO DIST PRESS RETARD **SEE REPROS - 62-64=C13269 & 65-66=C13270

NOTE: This part has been discontinued.

Note: This part is not a perfect match for CX3169.
This leads to the following...

Part number C13269: REPRO PRESSURE RETARD #224 62-64 TURBO

Weight: 0 lbs 6 oz
Catalog Pages(s): SUP,33
Price: $ 65.20

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Part number C13270: REPRO PRESSURE RETARD #250 65-66 TURBO

Weight: 0 lbs 6 oz
Catalog Pages(s): SUP,33
Price: $ 65.20

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Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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64powerglide
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by 64powerglide » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:34 am

I thought it was an easy find,I looked for Dist. then found pressure retards page 51 then I see turbo advance & retards Clark's number C 7877.

http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/search.cgi?part=C7877
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips

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cwhunt
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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by cwhunt » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:53 pm

I saw all the pressure retard units they had, but saw that all were discontinued. I failed to see that note that lead would have lead me to the C13269 part number as I saw in red letters discontinued. Seems like this part should show up in the alternate part section with the rest and not as a note to an alternate part number that has been discontinued. Especially since I use my phone mostly and all of the screen doesn't show.

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Christopher Hunt
San Diego, CA
'63 Monza Spyder 150HP Turbo

cwhunt
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:21 pm

Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by cwhunt » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:06 pm

After researching the crank triggered ignition system, I eventually want to go down that route. Which models work with the corvairs, specifically the '63 Monza spyder?

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Christopher Hunt
San Diego, CA
'63 Monza Spyder 150HP Turbo

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Re: Ignition timing question

Unread post by miniman82 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:49 pm

It's not a kit per se, you piece it together yourself. Here, I wrote an article for people to follow when converting their cars.

http://www.corvairnut.com/EDIS.htm

There's also the J&S safeguard, but it's a lot more money.
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