Steering issue

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Jerry Whitt
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:42 pm

Steering issue

Unread post by Jerry Whitt » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:49 pm

Dealing with a 1965 Corsa convertible. The steering has 4 completed turns lock to lock. It does take more force to turn the wheel. The steering box, with pitman arm off, has 5 1/4 turns, lock to lock.

The issue- my 1965 Monza has 5 1/4 turns lock to locks, with pitman arm connected. The Monza will make a u turn in the street outside my house, but the Corsa will not.

The difference noted in the suspension is the steering arm length. Page 155 of Clarks catalog has a picture. The Corsa has an arm length roughly 2 inches shorter than the Monza. This arm is apparently a"fast ratio" arm.

The question, "If a longer steering arm is installed, will that also allow a smaller turn radius?
Jerry Whitt
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER TECHNICIAN
Retired
Hemet, Callifornia
65 Monza, purchased new
65 Corsa convertible

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cnicol
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Re: Steering issue

Unread post by cnicol » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:23 pm

It shouldn't make much difference. The steering radius is determined by the bump stops on the knuckle; the fast arms just get you to the stop with fewer turns of the steering wheel.

Now, having said that, fast arms have a slight issue with toe-angles "going off" during very tight turns. The toe angles are supposed to go "off" because the inside wheel has to turn sharper to match the smaller circle it makes as the car goes around the circle. (Known as the "Ackerman Angle"). However, the short arms don't quite get it right so the tires fight each other a little and you can't quite turn as tight. So, with regular steering arms you may get a *slightly* tighter turning radius.
'61 140 PG Rampside
'66 Rear Alum V8 4-dr
'60 Monza PG coupe (sold, sniff, sniff)
'66 Corsa Fitch Sprint Conv. (First car 1971, recently repurchased)

Jerry Whitt
Posts: 664
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: Steering issue

Unread post by Jerry Whitt » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:43 pm

What must be done to get a smaller turning radius?
Jerry Whitt
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER TECHNICIAN
Retired
Hemet, Callifornia
65 Monza, purchased new
65 Corsa convertible

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cnicol
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:11 pm

Re: Steering issue

Unread post by cnicol » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:55 pm

The first thing to do is to ensure the steering knuckle is reaching the stops. If it isn't, look for an upstream problem such as a bent part or a steering box that isn't centered.
'61 140 PG Rampside
'66 Rear Alum V8 4-dr
'60 Monza PG coupe (sold, sniff, sniff)
'66 Corsa Fitch Sprint Conv. (First car 1971, recently repurchased)

Jerry Whitt
Posts: 664
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: Steering issue

Unread post by Jerry Whitt » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:49 am

The stops on each side are active. With the front end up, the steering wheel was turned left and right as far as possible. Then, crawling on a creeper, I was able to see each stop clearly. Both are hitting.
Jerry Whitt
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER TECHNICIAN
Retired
Hemet, Callifornia
65 Monza, purchased new
65 Corsa convertible

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cnicol
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:11 pm

Re: Steering issue

Unread post by cnicol » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:36 am

Unless there's some huge scrub caused by your "quick" steering arms, your car probably has a "stock" turning radius. You might want to try a slow circle in a parking lot and measure the diameter to see if your car is in spec or not. It should be 37 feet tire-to-tire.
'61 140 PG Rampside
'66 Rear Alum V8 4-dr
'60 Monza PG coupe (sold, sniff, sniff)
'66 Corsa Fitch Sprint Conv. (First car 1971, recently repurchased)

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bbodie52
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Re: Steering issue

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:06 am

According to some of the material below, obtaining fast-ratio steering via the shortened steering arm method always seems to limit the steering box range and also has a negative impact on the car's turning radius. The more complex and expensive method of installing a fast-ratio steering box coupled with stock-length steering arms seems to produce a car with fewer drawbacks, in that it produces a result of fast steering while retaining a normal turning radius...

Steering wheels, columns, and boxes.

:link: http://autoxer.skiblack.com/steering.html
Steering Boxes.

All the splined ends are the same, but there are four different shaft lengths of Corvair steering boxes:

'60 - '63 "stubby" fully splined round shaft
'64 one piece "long" shaft, about 49" long
early (up to April) '65 "long" shaft, about 47 1/2" long
late '65 - '66 "short" shaft, about 19" long
'67 - '69 "stubby" shaft with alignment flat
Be aware that the '64 one piece shaft is about 49" long and the early (up to April) '65 shaft is about 47 1/2" long.

Some more good info from Seth, on the Flaming River aftermarket steering box.

Well - I just came inside after a half hour out in my non-heated garage (okay - at 55 degrees) and I did some measuring of steering boxes. Someone had asked about the comparative sizes of the new Flaming River box and the stock Corvair boxes. I had a 1962, aluminum box, a 1966 mid-length shaft box, a 1967 short shaft box, and the flaming river "quick" ratio new box. The output spline for the pitman arm is the same on all of them. (I didn't remove and re-install an arm, they just look identical.) The input spline for the 1967 (same 67-69) had the same length as the Flaming River unit. The only difference is the small flat on one side of the spline. That would have to be duplicated to install the box into a 67-69. Maybe 3 minutes with a grinding wheel. Do a trial fit-up with a spare stamped coupling. The spline on the 62 is the same as the Flaming river unit - no flat ground on it. It should bolt into a 60-63 car (some 60s are different, big surprise!) It will be much heavier than the stock box - the early ones were aluminum, the Flaming River unit is steel. It is also much stronger. The 66 boxes and any 64-65 box will take some work to adapt to the Flaming River box. But it can be done. A spline adapter and an extension will do it. Careful with the welds!

Ratios - I turned all the boxes through their complete travel. The 66 box (a factory quick ratio), was 3.6 turns lock to lock. The pitman arm shaft turned about one quarter of a turn. That is the 16 to one ratio. The Flaming River box turned a little more than 4 turns, say 4.1 - but the Pitman arm turned more than the quarter turn. I think the ratio is the same as the factory fast box. The 62 box and the 67 box both went over 5 turns lock to lock - and performed the same one-quarter turn on the pitman arm. It is worth noting that the steering box, when fully installed in the car and hooked up to the steering components does not approach lock in either direction. Other components - steering arms, usually - prevent the box from reaching the ends of travel.

Seth Emerson

Steering Arms.

Since the steering arms on a Corvair unbolt from the spindle, making faster ratio arms has been a product almost from the introduction of the car. The photo below (courtesy JR Read) is of a display Mike Harrison of Group Corvair had at a convention vendor area. The "typical short" is an example of arms sold by IECO, EELCO, etc. Keep in mind that the ratio is based on the distance from the spindle to the tie rod mount, so the changes look bigger than they are.

Image
NVCC Hot Air Mail 4 November 2010 wrote:Steering gear tutorial

Over the years of Corvair manufacture, Chevy produced six visually different Steering box designs. Two of them were
available with regular or quick “innards ”, but were visually identical.

The six are:
  • Type One 60-63 — Short shaft, aluminum housing – slow ratio
  • Type Two 1964 — long shaft, all the way to the steering wheel
  • Type Three 1965 (early) — long shaft, all the way to the wheel (different than 1964)
  • Type Four 1965 (early) — Telescoping column - solid steel double-splined coupler
  • Type Five 1965 (late) — through 1966 Large stamped coupler – Available slow or quick ratio
  • Type Six 1967-1969 short shaft again (allows collapsible column) – Available slow or quick ratio
All coupler-equipped Corvair boxes (types One, Four, Five and Six) use the same column spline .625” x 36 – But only the
60-63 Type One, uses a full 36 spline tip. The others have a flat edge ground onto the splined tip to “orient” the coupler
onto the shaft when it is installed. The Type Six box is virtually the same as the Type One, but with the added coupler
onto the shaft when it is installed. The Type Six box is virtually the same as the Type One, but with the added “flat”. The
type Four and Five are almost identical to each other, they also have the ground flat on the spline. But the column shafts
are much longer than the Type One and Six. On the Type Five box, the column shaft extends about 15.25” out of the box,
on the Type Four, about 14.25”.

The Flaming River replacement boxes are Type One direct replacements. To replace a Type Six box, the flat must be ground to properly orient the coupler. (The coupler expects a flat, and won’t slide onto the shaft without it.) To replace the Type Four or Type Five box, an extender shaft must be added to reach the stock coupling; the splines on the extender must also have the flat ground onto it to mate with the coupler. I am working with Flaming River to produce extension shafts. They already make all the component parts for it.

Types Four and Five are interchangeable, as long as the steering column is also changed over. Either complete system can
also replace a Type Three installation. If you have a Type Two or Three steering gear and you decide to race your car, (at
any place that you could actually hit something) you should seriously think about replacing it with a type that has some
type of bolt-together coupler. The “front of the wheels” location of the Corvair steering gear and the proximity of the
steering wheel to your chest is not a good combination when a solid shaft is added. Although a 60-63 column might be
swapped into the 1964 (Type Two), the solid coupling used in the early models simulates a solid shaft, with all the same
drawbacks.

Steering arms

Chevy only produced two designs of steering arms for Corvairs, regular length and shorter length. All were machined
from forgings. The faster arms were only available as part of the fast ratio steering option for late-1965 through 1969
models. There were several aftermarket shorter arms available, and some are still available. All are machined from steel
castings. In his book “How to keep your Corvair Alive” Richard Finch described how to shorten the factory forged arms
to achieve a faster ratio steering. In order to fully realize the Fast Ratio steering option exactly as Chevy designed it, you
will have to find or build shorter arms. For an autocross or racing car, the quick box can be combined with even the
aftermarket cast arms – but it is very “twitchy” on the street, and I do not recommend it. At least replacing the slow
factory box with the quicker Flaming River box gives you somewhat quicker steering and keeps your stock, factory
steering alignment and turning radius.


The fast ratio Steering boxes are available from Silicone Wire Systems and other select Corvair Performance dealers. You
might be able to order one from Jeg’s or Summit too. But wouldn’t you rather support your Corvair vendors. Silicone
Wire Systems is introducing these boxes at a special price $299 plus shipping. Just to prove I do not discriminate against
non-racers, brand new “standard” ratio boxes, identical except for the ratio are on sale for the same price. These are an all new heavy-duty replacement at about the same price as a rebuild!

Silicone Wire Systems (408-247-2237)
3462 Kirkwood Drive,
San Jose, California 95117
Attachments
Northern Virginia Corvairs - Hot Air Mail - November-2010.pdf
Northern Virginia Corvairs - Hot Air Mail - November-2010
(48.98 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

CorsaCharlie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:15 pm

Re: Steering issue

Unread post by CorsaCharlie » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:44 pm

Corvair Steering Box
Flaming River Pitman Arm Turn Ratio Illustrated:
Flaming River Pitman Turn Ratio Illustrated.jpg
Last edited by CorsaCharlie on Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bbodie52
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Re: Steering issue

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:30 pm

:goodpost: :dontknow: The method used above will not successfully display an image, because the address seems to point to a local drive and directory (F:\Foresight\Cars\Corvair\) on a PC that is not available as a networked server to host an Internet-based image. As described below, the Img method must point to a URL address that is publicly available on the Web. Images that are stored on local computer drives may be uploaded from your PC to the Corvair Forum server, and then embedded within the text body of your post.

Here is some material on posting pictures on the Corvair Forum. I used these techniques to post the URL addresses of a few of your pictures above. Please let me know if you have any questions...

:whoa: Photographs can be hosted on other public websites, and then shared here using the photograph image URL. Facebook is another URL source option. Alternately, individual photographs can be uploaded directly to the Corvair Forum from a computer hard drive, thumb drive, etc.
If you are not familiar with posting pictures on the Corvair Forum, here are some guidelines. I wrote these instructions a while ago to try to help new members of the Corvair Forum with posting pictures. There are two methods. Hopefully these guidelines will help you...

To be able to post pictures, always use POST REPLY — not QUICK REPLY — to open the full-featured editor.

There are basically two ways to post a digital photograph on the Corvair Forum. The first, illustrated below, involves inserting an image URL address between two Img markers. The URL image address is copied from an existing picture on the Internet. The source image can be another picture already on display within the Corvair Forum, or it can be just about any picture, artwork, or graphic image that is publicly viewable by anyone on the Internet. You simply need to copy the source image URL temporarily to the computer "clipboard", and the paste that URL address within the text you are writing on the Corvair Forum (between the two Img markers). Once you have posted your text, the Corvair Forum software will simply grab the image from the source URL and will display it embedded within your text (at the location where you embedded the Img markers and source URL).

For example, I am embedding the First Place Image and Avatar Image images to the left of this post within the text here by copying their URL addresses between two Img markers.

Here is what the above text looks like unsaved...
For example, I am embedding the First Place [img.]images/ranks/COTBLACKPLATE.png[/img] and Avatar [img.]download/file.php?avatar=2689_1344285003.jpg[/img] images to the left of this post within the text here by copying their URL addresses between two Img markers.
Maybe this illustration will help...

You can manually copy images and pictures from other Corvair Forum posts that were embedded as uploads by right-clicking each image in the source with your right mouse button and selecting Copy image URL or Copy image address from the menu choices. Doing so will invisibly copy the image URL address to the computer temporary data buffer called a clipboard. Using the Img button at the top of the editor screen, and the standard PC copy and paste technique will allow you to paste that URL address data from the clipboard into your Corvair Forum text (surrounded by bracketed img markers), which will display as the original picture or image when the post has been saved for display. It illustration below depicts the process.

Click on image to enlarge for better viewing...
Corvair Forum Image Transfer.jpg
NOTE: This same technique will allow you to copy just about any graphic, photo, or other displayed image from any public website, Facebook, or other website that is not secured and is publically viewable by right-clicking the desired image, obtaining the image URL, and then pasting the URL with Img markers into your Corvair Forum text.

=========================================================================

The other method of embedding pictures involves uploading the images that you have physically stored on your computer. Simply scroll down in the editor and choose the Attachments tab. Then click on the Add files button. If desired, multiple pictures or files can be uploaded at one time, as described in the following link...

:link: viewtopic.php?f=223&t=11386&p=77762#p77762

Either way, the pictures you upload will not be visible as photographs until you click on Preview or Submit.

=========================================================================

There is also an online help section on the Corvair Forum. See...

How to post a picture (and start a new topic)

CorvairForum Site Topics ‹ Site Specific Topics ‹ Site Features and How to Use Them ‹ How to post a picture (and start a new topic)

:link: viewtopic.php?f=196&t=618
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

CorsaCharlie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:15 pm

Re: Steering issue

Unread post by CorsaCharlie » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:14 pm

Yes, I knew that but I just didn't notice until now :<~{

Was I notified of my error? I'd have fixed it then if I had realized it.

If I was, maybe I missed it, but if not well, I fixed it when I looked for it a year later.

Apologies to anyone who wanted to see it!

Wagon Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:36 pm

Re: Steering issue

Unread post by Wagon Master » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:21 am

More caster = Larger turning radius
Less caster = Smaller turning radius

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