67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

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bbodie52
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by bbodie52 »

JamesCalvinIII wrote:Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:49 pm

Okay so I repaired the fuel lines, they hold pressure fine,

but I'm not getting fuel to the carbs,

It was working a few weeks ago then died out

I have a fuel filter behind the rear drivers tire, I can physically suck gas from the tank to where the line meets the fuel filter but when every things connected it won't pull fuel to filter.

The fuel pump probably only has about 5 miles on it, My guess is a faulty fuel pump, even though its brand new... is there any way to test it?
:think: A few thoughts…

I suppose there is a possibility of a faulty fuel filter that is permitting a vacuum leak and preventing fuel from being drawn into and past the filter. The filter may also have some directional arrows on the side. You should be sure that the filter is installed correctly, with the arrows pointing in the direction of fuel flow. However, for testing purposes you could simply bypass the fuel filter by removing it from the line and connecting the fuel pump directly to the incoming fuel line.

You mentioned that your Corvair has been sitting for several years. Have you drained the stale fuel from the fuel tank? You should never attempt to start your Corvair with ancient gasoline.

You can also bypass the fuel tank and fuel line from the tank to the engine compartment by running a length of fuel hose directly from the steel line where it enters the engine compartment to a gas can that contains fresh fuel. The gas can should be positioned away from any source of ignition, but several feet of hose should not be a problem for the mechanical fuel pump.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, you should confirm that the fuel pump bolt pointed end is properly seated into the conical hole in the side of the fuel pump shaft. This ensures the proper positioning of the pump so that receives a full stroke from the pushrod as the engine is being cranked or when it is running. If the pump is not properly seated and is held in position incorrectly a short stroke may prevent the pump from pumping efficiently to develop the vacuum needed to draw the fuel to the pump so that it can be pressurized and fed to the carburetors.

You mentioned originally that the fuel pump had failed. But if the fuel lines between the gas tank and the engine compartment had become cracked and were leaking it is possible that the original fuel pump was actually not faulty. It could have appeared to have failed when in actuality a vacuum leak may have formed in the fuel feed line from the gas tank, making it impossible for the fuel pump to do its job. Do you still have the original fuel pump? If you did not throw it out you could try reinstalling it to see if it will function once again now that the fuel inlet line has been corrected.

If you do not have the original "faulty" fuel pump to try again, it may be necessary to obtain another replacement pump. You might try ordering a new pump from a source like Clark's Corvair Parts, since they are well aware of problems that have occurred in the past with poor quality control from suppliers. The pumps they provide MAY have a better chance of functioning properly when installed. It is possible that the new pump you have currently installed could have failed after only a short period of use.

The shop manual pages that I posted earlier shows how to test the fuel pump for proper operation. A vacuum/pressure gauge can be used to confirm that adequate fuel pressure is being delivered by the pump. A container can be used to measure the amount of fuel delivered within a specified period of time to confirm proper volume capacity.

I hope the one or more of these suggestions will be helpful. Good luck with your testing, troubleshooting and fault isolation. Please let us know what you find.
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by 64powerglide »

Undo the lines at the carbs, one at a time & see if the pump will pull the gas to the pump then out an open line. Have some hold a container so the gas doesn't go all over & start a fire!!!!!
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by JamesCalvinIII »

bbodie52 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:54 pm I suppose there is a possibility of a faulty fuel filter that is permitting a vacuum leak and preventing fuel from being drawn into and past the filter. The filter may also have some directional arrows on the side. You should be sure that the filter is installed correctly, with the arrows pointing in the direction of fuel flow. However, for testing purposes you could simply bypass the fuel filter by removing it from the line and connecting the fuel pump directly to the incoming fuel line.
The fuel filter looks clean, holds pressure, and only has a few miles on it...

I also tested the line to the tank and line to the fuel pump... and the fuel lines to the carbs... all hold pressure
bbodie52 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:54 pm
You mentioned that your Corvair has been sitting for several years. Have you drained the stale fuel from the fuel tank? You should never attempt to start your Corvair with ancient gasoline.
Yes I drained the tank and added fresh fuel
bbodie52 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:54 pm As I mentioned in my earlier post, you should confirm that the fuel pump bolt pointed end is properly seated into the conical hole in the side of the fuel pump shaft.
What do you mean by properly seated? I have not touch the set bolt because I am not sure of its proper positioning.
bbodie52 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:54 pm You mentioned originally that the fuel pump had failed. But if the fuel lines between the gas tank and the engine compartment had become cracked and were leaking it is possible that the original fuel pump was actually not faulty. It could have appeared to have failed when in actuality a vacuum leak may have formed in the fuel feed line from the gas tank, making it impossible for the fuel pump to do its job. Do you still have the original fuel pump? If you did not throw it out you could try reinstalling it to see if it will function once again now that the fuel inlet line has been corrected.
Yes the original failed and I not longer have it unfortunately

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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by 64powerglide »

If the needle valves in the carbs are closed it won't pump gas to them, pour some gas in the carbs & see if it starts. Or have someone spray starting fluid into them. That's why I said open the lines at the carbs & see if the gas comes out, if you don't have gas coming out of the open line the pump is probably bad. Post a photo of the new pump & lines.
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by JamesCalvinIII »

64powerglide wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:06 am If the needle valves in the carbs are closed it won't pump gas to them, pour some gas in the carbs & see if it starts. Or have someone spray starting fluid into them. That's why I said open the lines at the carbs & see if the gas comes out, if you don't have gas coming out of the open line the pump is probably bad. Post a photo of the new pump & lines.
The car starts when I pour gas into the carbs,

gas isn't coming out at the lines, its not passing through the fuel filter to even get to the lines...

that was my conclusion also, must be a faulty pump.... but ill upload some photos today
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by bbodie52 »

What do you mean by properly seated? I have not touch the set bolt because I am not sure of its proper positioning.
The pump bolt serves as a locating pin. If you look back at my first post in this thread there is a picture of the pump with the anchor bolt hole showing, and the pointed bolt displayed next to the pump. Further down is a picture of the shop manual page that shows a cross-section view of that bolt (cone shaped) hole. The bolt that secures the pump does not simply push against the side of the pump shaft. Instead, the pointed end of the bolt is supposed to seat in the hole on the side of the pump shaft. As you insert the pump with one hand while tightening the bolt with the other hand, you should be able to feel when the pointed end of th bolt enters the hole in the side of the pump and then bottoms out in the hole. Then tighten the lock nut to secure the bolt. This secures the pump while ensuring the correct depth so that the pump receives a full stroke from the engine push rod.
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by JamesCalvinIII »

bbodie52 wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:37 am
What do you mean by properly seated? I have not touch the set bolt because I am not sure of its proper positioning.
The pump bolt serves as a locating pin. If you look back at my first post in this thread there is a picture of the pump with the anchor bolt hole showing, and the pointed bolt displayed next to the pump. Further down is a picture of the shop manual page that shows a cross-section view of that bolt (cone shaped) hole. The bolt that secures the pump does not simply push against the side of the pump shaft. Instead, the pointed end of the bolt is supposed to seat in the hole on the side of the pump shaft. As you insert the pump with one hand while tightening the bolt with the other hand, you should be able to feel when the pointed end of th bolt enters the hole in the side of the pump and then bottoms out in the hole. Then tighten the lock nut to secure the bolt. This secures the pump while ensuring the correct depth so that the pump receives a full stroke from the engine push rod.
I wish you could have seen my face when all of that information finally clicked! lol

I removed the set bolt and put it back in, I felt it secure into place and I tightened to up

when everything is disconnected there is obviously no vacuum, when I reconnect everything, how do i build up the vacuum? by pumping the gas pedal?


Here also are the photos I took of the fuel pump, lines and filter

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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by 64powerglide »

I still think you have to open the gas lines at the carbs to let the pump push the air out of the lines. If the needle valves are closed they will not allow the pump to push the air out of the lines. If there isn't any gas in the pump it won't build up much pressure but when it gets the air out it should have more pressure. Needle valves have been known to stick closed if the gas evaporates out of the carbs. I assume the accelerator pumps in the carbs are not squirting any gas. :dontknow:
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by bbodie52 »

:think: The written text on the three pages below from the Corvair shop manual explains a lot about troubleshooting and analyzing the pump functions. It is worth taking a few seconds to read these pages from the shop manual. I've also included a narrative from Corvair Underground that explains a lot about the mechanical Corvair fuel pump.

The mechanical fuel pump — unlike electric fuel pumps — is very good at creating a suction (vacuum) to pull fuel long distances from the storage tank. As written in the shop manual description below, a leak in the feedline between the tank and the fuel pump will not be obvious, because it is not under pressure. (Did you ever try to drink through a straw from a cup when there is a small hole or split in the side of the straw? You will quickly discover that no matter how hard you suck on the straw you are not rewarded with a drink! Once you discover the damaged straw and replace it, your thirst is quickly satisfied). The same thing occurs with the Corvair mechanical fuel pump if there is a crack or leak in the line anywhere between the fuel tank outlet in the fuel pump inlet. You can crank the engine all day, but no fuel will be delivered to the carburetors until you fix the leak in the fuel line from the gas tank! If you disconnect the steel fuel lines that connects to the carburetors and discover that no fuel is being pressurized or pumped from the pump outlet, chances are at least 50/50 that the problem is not a faulty fuel pump. It is more likely that one of the rubber fuel hoses at either end of the steel feedline from the fuel tank may have developed a crack or split and is allowing air to leak into the line, which prevents the pump from being able to draw fluid from the gas tank. I wonder how many perfectly good mechanical fuel pumps have been removed and thrown in the trash because they failed to develop fuel pump pressure from the outlet. The shop manual description clearly states that the fuel inlet line may be the cause of trouble with the fuel pump outlet — but who ever reads the factory shop manual?

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The mechanical fuel pump internally is a fairly simple device. There are two one-way valves in the pump. The inlet valve allows fuel to be drawn (sucked) from the fuel tank when the diaphragm moves in one direction. When the diaphragm moves in the other direction the one-way valve closes to prevent fuel from backing up towards the fuel tank. At the same time the other valve opens and allows pressurized fuel to be forced in the direction of the outlet to the carburetors. The back and forth stroke of the diaphragm continually sucks then pushes fuel first through one valve and then through the other valve toward the carburetors. These two one-way valves are staked in place. It is possible for one of the valves to come loose and begin leaking. A leak in either valve if it loosens will stop the operation of the pump. If the valve is only loose and not damaged it can be re-seated and staked into place. Such a repair is simple and requires no replacement parts. A ruptured diaphragm, however, cannot be repaired, because there are no rebuilding kits available for these pumps. But if a pump fails to deliver fuel to the carburetors it is important to properly test, and possibly dismantle and examine the pump to determine the cause of the failure. As previously mentioned, a loose valve can often be easily repaired. A faulty gasket could possibly be replaced by using the old gasket as a template and cutting a new gasket from bulk gasket material. The large spring in the pump determines the output pressure, but these seldom fail or change value. The only real "showstopper" would be a ruptured pump diaphragm, if that turns out to be the point of failure. As you can see, proper troubleshooting and fault isolation can often help you to resolve a fuel pump problem without having to replace the fuel pump. The lack of rebuild kits may also not prevent a faulty pump from being repaired, depending on the nature of the fault. And a leaky or clogged fuel inlet line can also cause a pump failure that is not necessarily caused by a bad pump.

Understanding the functions of the fuel pump system and taking the time to analyze the cause of fuel delivery failure can save both time and money. An electric fuel pump can be an expensive conversion, but it is not always the best way or the optimum way to get your car back on the road. If you do decide to switch to an electric fuel pump you should realize that most electric fuel pumps do not function well if they are physically located far from the fuel source. Electric fuel pump should be installed in an area that is protected and close to the fuel tank. A filter of some type should also filter the fuel before it enters the pump to protect the pump from damaged by contaminated fuel. The electric fuel pump power source should also be controlled by a safety switch that will disconnect electricity to the pump if the engine stops running (no oil pressure to close the electric safety switch)..


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:link: http://www.corvairunderground.com/fuelpump.htm
CORVAIR UNDERGROUND - Lon Wall wrote:
Let's Talk About

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Corvair FUEL PUMPS

IMPORTANT NOTE - As of 1-15-17 our reliable supplier of mechanical pumps has quit producing. Whether this is permanent or not is unknown at this time. Because I am a firm believer in mechanical pumps I am working on finding a replacement supplier. The comments below still hold true but I will try and keep you all updated as to our progress. Lon Wall

(Want a mechanical fuel pump that works great and can be depended on? Check out our special at the end of this article)

This is always a controversial subject amongst Corvair owners. But a great deal of the controversy is self inflicted. Mechanical or electric fuel pumps? Let's try and sort this out.

MECHANICAL FUEL PUMPS - These are the pumps that came standard with all Corvairs from the factory. The mechanical pump is a simple diaphragm type that is operated by a push rod which rides on an eccentric on the crankshaft. The pump develops suction which draws gas from the fuel tank and distributes it to the carburetors.

It would be simple to say that all mechanical Corvair pumps are the same - but alas, that is not the case. The original 1960 models had a pump that appears to be the same but has a longer rod exiting the bottom of the pump. In turn a shorter pump pushrod was obviously used. This design was carried over into 1961 models for an uncertain period of time. This is why if you own a 1960 or 1961 you should always measure the overall length of your pushrod before you replace the pump.

In that same vein I would highly suggest that if you find you have one of these earlier pumps you should convert it to the 62-69 type. Why? because it's easy and cheap to do and there is never a question in the future as to which pump you're using. If you should be unlucky enough to find an NOS earlier pump do not be tempted to use it!

These 60-61 pumps were last produced well over 30 years ago and that pump will be too old to reply on. To make the conversion simply get one of our part number U-481 pump pushrods.

Now let's go back 18 years ago to 1992. One of the largest makers of Corvair fuel pumps got a defective batch of diaphragms. THIS HAPPENED ONCE and only in 1992. But the repercussions have lasted ever since. The problem was corrected within a few months BUT because this manufacturer sold to many different retailers it made it appear that numerous manufacturers were putting defective pumps on the market. To make matters worse, some of those retailers moved very few Corvair pumps, so for years (even to the present) some "brands" (labels, really) still sell defective Corvair pumps - all ones made in that original batch 18 years ago.

Well, bad enough you say. Oh it can always get worse - and it did. Back in the early 90's a small parts vendor saw an opportunity. Because everyone at the time was in a virtual panic this vendor saw an opportunity to promote their fuel pumps. An abnormal amount of negative advertising and outright nonesense permeated the Corvair grapevine. The claim, of course, was that this vendors fuel pumps were perfect while everyone elses were bad. But there was an irony here.

As time went on it became more than apparent that the vendors fuel pumps were actually worse than everyone elses. Where their pumps came from were anyone's guess, but by hundreds of defective pumps and 3 different, but failing, revisions later the matter was dropped.

But that wasn't enough. During this timeframe numerous Corvair experts (some real some self-proclaimed) wrote articles that only clouded the issue even worse.

Some claimed that rebuild kits were the only answer. Ironic again, because the few remaining rebuild kits also suffered from the diaphragm problem, possibly because they had been the original supplier for this part from the beginning. Some claimed that certain visible features could warn you of doom. Visible reinforcement fibers in the diaphragm, the type of screws holding the pump body together, even the precise length of the lower diaphragm rod were all to be worshipped. While it's true that some of these identities sometimes had validity none of them were absolute. The issue of the diaphragm rod length was especially absurd.

It's true that the rod length has to fall within certain parameters, but the miniscule measuring of this rod was misleading overkill. The amount the rod protrudes from the pump casting can still vary up to at least 1/4 of an inch and still be within specs.

Take all of the above and horsewhip it to death from 1992 to the present and what can you expect? If you study the psychology of panics most of them look a lot like our fuel pump example. An issue can be twisted and confused so much for so long there is no way to untangle it.

Then we have to think that many people quit driving their Corvairs? No, a "white knight" came to some owners rescue. The electric fuel pump is used on nearly all modern cars. Electric pumps are generally reliable, and are readily available. So why isn't that the end of the story?

I have said since Day One that I would never talk a happy electric fuel pump owner out of their pump. That has never really been the issue. The issue are new Corvair owners and what they should feel compelled to do. I think it's irresponsible to tell a new owner that he has to get rid of a perfectly functioning mechanical pump and replace it with an electric.

Electric fuel pumps cost more than mechanical pumps, especially when set up safely, take a bit of work and knowledge to retrofit and have their own problems (as do all mechanical devices). Bottom line - they are unnecessary, but if you really WANT one (as opposed to being convinced that you MUST have one) then that's your decision.

But what if your mechanical pump has failed?

FIRST - Make sure it HAS failed. I believe that many fuel pump "failures" have nothing directly to do with the pump. The most common of these is when you develop an air leak in the incoming fuel line. Spots to look for trouble include the rubber connecting line just behind the firewall (old cracked hose or loose fittings are the culprit) and make sure the fittings where the incoming line connect to the pump are good. These air leaks can be transient or very specific and repeatable - all related to ambient temperature. If you think your fuel pump has quit pumping check these spots first.

And then there's leaks, both internal and external. Of course the biggest boogeyman is the internal leak that pumps gas into your crankcase causing everything from noisy lifters all the way to a trashed engine. This can be serious and I have seen it happen - with both mechanical AND electric fuel pumps - but it isn't so common that you have to spend every day immersed in paranoia about it.

External leaks can happen but they are usually the result of incorrect installation or other misuse of the pump OR you may have purchased one of the brands of pumps that never got sent back from the 1992 recall.

One important point about electric pumps is that if you chose to use one make sure to remember that the incoming line system was not designed to be pressurized.
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by JamesCalvinIII »

64powerglide wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:12 am I still think you have to open the gas lines at the carbs to let the pump push the air out of the lines. If the needle valves are closed they will not allow the pump to push the air out of the lines. If there isn't any gas in the pump it won't build up much pressure but when it gets the air out it should have more pressure. Needle valves have been known to stick closed if the gas evaporates out of the carbs. I assume the accelerator pumps in the carbs are not squirting any gas. :dontknow:

Okay, Let me break this down so I understand (remember i'm a newbie)... when you say open the gas lines at the carbs.. you mean disconnect the carbs from the gas line leading to it?

Which needle valves are you referring to? the ones on the carb?


So by disconnecting the lines, that will allow air to be pushed out to build up the pressure again? is that correct?

Yeah no gas is squirting into the carbs


Okay, Let me try that and I will get back to you


thanks for your help!
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by bbodie52 »

If the carburetor float bowls are empty the floats will be in the down position and the needle valve in each carburetor will be open. It is not necessary to disconnect the steel fuel line from the carburetor to bleed the air from the fuel line. The line is already open into the empty float bowl. If the carburetor float bowls are full the engine would not be prevented from starting because of fuel starvation. The floats would be in the up position and the needle valve would be closed until the running engine consumes some of the fuel from the carburetor float bowls. At that point the needle valves would open and would allow fuel from the fuel pump to replenish the fuel supply in each float bowl. As long as the engine is running the pump is in constant operation since it is driven by the push rod that is actuated by the running engine. Air in the lines between the pump and the carburetors would not prevent fuel pressure from being developed to deliver fuel to the carburetors upon demand. Any air in the lines would quickly bleed out as the needle valves in each float bowl opened to permit fuel to enter.

The mechanical Corvair fuel pump is self-priming. It never would have a problem pressurizing the fuel lines between the carburetors and the fuel pump. The only time the pump would have trouble drawing fuel from the fuel tank would be in the case of a leaky fuel line between the tank and the pump (preventing suction from being established in the fuel line from the tank).

The troubleshooting instructions in the factory shop manual are fairly specific and brief. Disconnecting the fuel lines from the carburetors and directing them into another receptacle to measure output is discussed in the shop manual. If the fuel lines are disconnected from the carburetors and the engine is cranked but no fuel is delivered from the open fuel lines either the pump itself is faulty or the feed line between the tank and the pump is faulty.
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by 64powerglide »

Brad, When I bought my 64 the gas tank was loaded with gunk. I worked quite a while cleaning it in the car, when I thought I had it clean I put fresh gas in & rebuilt the carbs. The first time I ran the car it ran fine. The next time I went to start it there was very little power, the right carb had dried out leaving the needle valve stuck closed. I opened the carb to find that, well the gas was brown & I had the same thing happen again so I figured the tank still had some lacquer in it. I added a 16 ounce bottle of Sta-Bil in the tank & have not had a problem since. I wonder if he had a similar problem with stuck needle valves preventing fuel flow. My float was stuck up in the right carb with no gas in the bowl. He may have to open the carbs to see if there is a problem. If he had a fuel line crack I would think there would be gas leaking out leaving stains on the floor. From his photo's there is gas at the filter & the pump should pull that gas through if it has somewhere with an opening so it will move but if it's blocked at the carb it's a no go. :my02:
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by JamesCalvinIII »

Jeff,

I disconnect the fuel lines at the carbs.... Nothing is flowing


Perhaps it's a stuck valve in the fuel pump..or a complelely broken pump... Which is odd because it's new and worked for a few miles... I'd figure if it was faulty it would have been faulty since the beginning

If I can physically suck gas from the tank to the fuel filter, there's pressure... I tested all the lines from the pump to the carbs and the line from the filter to the pump...

Maybe I should remove the pump and take it apart?

They're new fuel pumps on eBay or would you recommend Clarks? In case I have to replace it
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by 64powerglide »

You could pull the pump and hook a fitting & hose to the inlet side & put the hose in a can of gas then put the pump upright on a bench & push it up & down & see if the moves any gas. You can even use one of the gas lines. That spring is stiff. My old one is good but after sitting 22 years I put a new one in even though it ran.
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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by toytron »

Yeah remember that though Brad was giving the straw analogy it does not mean he wants you to suck on the hose like a straw. Lol.
But yes you need to do a process of elimination. Since you have already determined that fuel flows in the line up to the pump (but as Brads analogy states you might not have good flow) you need to verify that you have flow through everything else. Make sure your brass tee is not clogged also. Remove the pump and checking it is one way but you also need to make sure it is pumping on the engine and not just assuming that it is.

1. Check flow through the lines between the pump and carbs including the brass tee. You can remove and squirt carb clean and/or air through them.

2. Check carb fuel filters that are in the carbs.

3. As was mentioned earlier. Run a hose from a gas can to the inlet of the fuel pump and out maybe to another can to view that the pump is working.

4. If pump is working with the previous test then hook up the fuel line from the tank and perform that test again into a can. If it doesn't work then your problem is possibly the straw analogy or even a clogged sock on the float in the tank. If it does work then connect the lines and brass that you confirmed and do test again (make sure you run hose from fittings to a can to prevent fuel from pouring onto engine.

5. If you get fuel to this point then you must check carbs again.

Let us know if you perform each step and what you have found at each one.

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Re: 67 Fuel line fixed!! but still no gas to carbs?? please help

Post by Wagon Master »

Were there any direction arrows on you fuel filter? I'll take my wild stab and say based on the pictures, the filter is installed backwards.
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