64 Monza not starting...

[Plazticpaddy]

Well, I've been lucky as a new Corvair owner (May 2013), haven't had a single issue with car until yesterday.

I'll preface this by saying I'm not very mechanically inclined so this is all new (and challenging) for me...

Anyhow - late last week the car was idling a little high and rough - nothing too bad, but a little concerning. Yesterday, tried to start it up and it wouldn't turn over - it would make the effort but wouldn't start. Came close after several tries, but once it kicked in, it immediately died.

Today I poked around and checked connections and tried to use some starter fluid to get it going, but still same issue. Took the opportunity to opo in new battery but that only gave me stronger "non-start"

Where do I begin to troubleshoot???

Thanks!!

Sean

[Jerry Whitt]

There is a special terminology used when working on cars.

1. No crank condition-means that the key is turned to the start position, the electric starter does not spin the engine. This is noted by the sound.

2. No fire up condition- means that when the key is turned, you can hear the starter motor spin the engine, but it does not begin to run.

I suspect from your notes, the starter spins the engine (cranks), fires up momentarily then dies.

There are only 3 basic problems possible A. Mechanical
B. Fuel
C. Electrical

Your note gives a hint. It fired up, then died. Not likely A, mechanical, as it would not run at all
This then leaves 2 more likely hoods, fuel or electrical

Next step is to eliminate one item.

Next suggested test, pull the coil wire from out of the center post in the distributor cap. Hold the end from the cap, close (1/4 inch) to a metal part and ask a friend to crank the engine using the key switch. A pretty good spark should jump to metal, ( if not careful, to your hand!!!!) If a spark is produced, this then points to the remaining item,
fuel.

Next test would be for fuel delivery. With key switch off, pull the air cleaners and look down into carburetors. Push carburetor linkage once or twice. A pretty good squirt
should be visible. If not, probably have gotten to the right area.

Let us know of your progress, then further procedures can be suggested.

[MBlaster1]

I was having the same problem and Brad sent me this. the problem with mine was the wire from the switch that provides power to the dis. after it starts. Mine was broken. It would fire while cranking but not run no fire to the dis when the key went from start position to run. Try and locate the wire. and see if it is broken or shorted.

With the ignition key ON you should read about 7-8 VDC if you measure the voltage at the positive ignition coil terminal with the other multimeter lead grounded. (Do not measure between the coil Positive (+) and Negative (-) terminals. When the points are open the Negative (-) terminal is NOT grounded. It is only grounded when the points are closed). When you turn the key to START to crank the engine, this voltage should jump to 12 VDC as long as the engine is being cranked. This is because the voltage to the ignition coil comes from two sources: the starter solenoid (12 VDC) and the ignition key (a reduced 7-8 VDC via a special resistor wire in the wiring harness). The higher voltage during cranking is intended to produce a "hotter" spark to help the engine start during cranking. As soon as the engine starts and the operator releases the key, the ignition switch returns to ON and the higher 12 VDC ignition coil voltage feed from the starter solenoid is disconnected, leaving the lower 7-8 VDC operating voltage feeding the coil until the ignition key is turned to OFF. The lower operating voltage at the coil is intended to reduce voltage and current across the ignition points during normal operation, which reduces arcing and prolongs the life of the ignition points contacts.

If you trace the 20 B/Y (20 gauge Black with Yellow Stripe) wire in the third illustration back from the positive coil terminal, you will see it connects to a two-connector terminal coming from the starter solenoid. The 20 B/Y wire continues through the connector to a terminal on the solenoid, and this is the source of the 12 VDC that is present ONLY during engine cranking. You will also see a splice at this connector with another wire (20 W/R/B) running to a 12 pin multi-connector (main engine compartment wiring harness). The other side of the multi-connector is connected to a 20 B/P (20 gauge Black with Pink Stripe) wire that can be traced through the other wiring diagrams back to the instrument panel and to the ignition switch source.

If you do not see a continuous voltage at the coil with the key ON, but only see a voltage present at the coil when the engine is cranking, there could be a broken wire or, more likely, a corroded or loose connection in a multi-pin connector. To check this, try disconnecting the 12-pin multi-connector at the engine compartment harness (shown in the first two illustrations). Then, with the key ON check for the presence of 12 VDC at the 20 B/P terminal in the multi-connector half that is connected to the harness coming out of the engine compartment firewall. If voltage is present at the 20 B/P wire pin but you did not see it present at the coil, check the multi-connector for a loose, bent, dirty, or corroded connection between the two halves of the multi-connector. Cleaning and straightening the pins, and then re-connecting the two halves of the multi-connector should correct your problem at the coil.

If there is no voltage present at the 20 B/P terminal in the engine compartment, you will have to trace further toward the instrument panel in the passenger compartment -- following the wiring schematic that ultimately leads to the ignition switch. Note that if other circuits in the car come on when the key is turned ON, the problem is likely a broken wire or a bad multi-connector in the circuit, and NOT the ignition switch itself. The output from the ignition switch feeds several circuits when it is turned ON, including the heater fan, instrument panel warning lights, radio, windshield wipers, etc. If those devices all work with the key ON, power is coming from the switch to feed all of those circuits, INCLUDING the ignition coil. Your task will be to locate where the voltage to the coil is being interrupted.

[bbodie52]

The comments about the possibility of a breakdown in the voltage feed to the coil quoted above is certainly a consideration, and I have copied my quoted problem description again below but included the associated diagrams that were referred to in the text to help with the explanation.

However, your original description of symptoms where the idle speed was increasing for a time coupled with the engine running rough, and then an increased problem with running and starting could also be a sign of the distributor ignition points deteriorating and pitting, which could result in the point gap changing — and that affects the dwell, ignition spark generation and ignition timing (possibly explaining the noted increase in idle speed and rough idle). If you find voltage is present at the positive coil terminal with the key in the ON position, this would indicate that the wiring circuit from the ignition switch is OK. If so, you might want to pull the distributor cap and check the condition of the points. If the point gap is small or negligible when the rubbing block is at a high point of the distributor cam lobe, the points and condenser should be replaced and the gap reset following the procedures in the attached Corvair shop manual section.

1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 7 - Engine Tune-Up.pdf

1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 7 - Engine Tune-Up

(931.65 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

If the ignition points turn out to be the cause of your problem, you might consider making an investment in a Crane or Pertronix electronic ignition system to upgrade your distributor and eliminate the points and condenser altogether. The conversion kits are shown on the following Clark's Corvair Parts catalog page...

http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... ow_page=74


Another possibility might be a vacuum leak that might have developed. Click on this link to view a diagram that would help you to check for a vacuum leak...

viewtopic.php?f=225&t=5849

With the ignition key ON you should read about 7-8 VDC if you measure the voltage at the positive ignition coil terminal with the other multimeter lead grounded. (Do not measure between the coil Positive (+) and Negative (-) terminals. When the points are open the Negative (-) terminal is NOT grounded. It is only grounded when the points are closed). When you turn the key to START to crank the engine, this voltage should jump to 12 VDC as long as the engine is being cranked. This is because the voltage to the ignition coil comes from two sources: the starter solenoid (12 VDC) and the ignition key (a reduced 7-8 VDC via a special resistor wire in the wiring harness). The higher voltage during cranking is intended to produce a "hotter" spark to help the engine start during cranking. As soon as the engine starts and the operator releases the key, the ignition switch returns to ON and the higher 12 VDC ignition coil voltage feed from the starter solenoid is disconnected, leaving the lower 7-8 VDC operating voltage feeding the coil until the ignition key is turned to OFF. The lower operating voltage at the coil is intended to reduce voltage and current across the ignition points during normal operation, which reduces arcing and prolongs the life of the ignition points contacts.

If you trace the 20 B/Y (20 gauge Black with Yellow Stripe) wire in the third illustration back from the positive coil terminal, you will see it connects to a two-connector terminal coming from the starter solenoid. The 20 B/Y wire continues through the connector to a terminal on the solenoid, and this is the source of the 12 VDC that is present ONLY during engine cranking. You will also see a splice at this connector with another wire (20 W/R/B) running to a 12 pin multi-connector (main engine compartment wiring harness). The other side of the multi-connector is connected to a 20 B/P (20 gauge Black with Pink Stripe) wire that can be traced through the other wiring diagrams back to the instrument panel and to the ignition switch source.

If you do not see a continuous voltage at the coil with the key ON, but only see a voltage present at the coil when the engine is cranking, there could be a broken wire or, more likely, a corroded or loose connection in a multi-pin connector. To check this, try disconnecting the 12-pin multi-connector at the engine compartment harness (shown in the first two illustrations). Then, with the key ON check for the presence of 12 VDC at the 20 B/P terminal in the multi-connector half that is connected to the harness coming out of the engine compartment firewall. If voltage is present at the 20 B/P wire pin but you did not see it present at the coil, check the multi-connector for a loose, bent, dirty, or corroded connection between the two halves of the multi-connector. Cleaning and straightening the pins, and then re-connecting the two halves of the multi-connector should correct your problem at the coil.

If there is no voltage present at the 20 B/P terminal in the engine compartment, you will have to trace further toward the instrument panel in the passenger compartment -- following the wiring schematic that ultimately leads to the ignition switch. Note that if other circuits in the car come on when the key is turned ON, the problem is likely a broken wire or a bad multi-connector in the circuit, and NOT the ignition switch itself. The output from the ignition switch feeds several circuits when it is turned ON, including the heater fan, instrument panel warning lights, radio, windshield wipers, etc. If those devices all work with the key ON, power is coming from the switch to feed all of those circuits, INCLUDING the ignition coil. Your task will be to locate where the voltage to the coil is being interrupted.















I hope that my explanation and the wiring diagrams and illustrations have increased your understanding of the Corvair ignition circuits, and will help you to successfully perform troubleshooting and fault isolation in your car. Please let me know if you have any questions.

NOTE: The above illustrations were written for a 1965 and later Corvair. There are some minor differences in the schematic wiring diagrams for a 1964 Corvair. The engine compartment wiring diagram for your 1964 Monza can be viewed on page 8-26 of the attached 1964 shop manual supplement.

[MBlaster1]

Thanks Brad. I could not figure out how to paste the diagram.

[bbodie52]

Thanks Brad. I could not figure out how to paste the diagram.

Here is some information that might prove helpful to you later, regarding pasting illustrations, diagrams, etc. If a diagram or picture was originally uploaded, it will not copy over with the text. If the illustrations were embedded as an image URL address, using the [img]INSERT_IMAGE_URL_HERE[/img] format, those embedded addresses will copy just like the rest of the text.

You can manually copy images and pictures from other Corvair Forum posts that were embedded as uploads by right-clicking each image in the source with your right mouse button and selecting Copy image URL from the menu choices. Doing so will invisibly copy the image URL address to the computer temporary data buffer called a clipboard. Using the Img button at the top of the editor screen, and the standard PC copy and paste technique will allow you to paste that URL address data from the clipboard into your Corvair Forum text (surrounded by bracketed img markers), which will display as the original picture or image when the post has been saved for display. It illustration below depicts the process.

Click on image to enlarge for better viewing...

NOTE: This same technique will allow you to copy just about any graphic, photo, or other displayed image from any public website, Facebook, or other website that is not secured and is publically viewable by right-clicking the desired image, obtaining the image URL, and then pasting the URL with Img markers into your Corvair Forum text.

[dagdal1967]

Giggle... Love the fact that you used my car in that last message Brad! :)

Really enjoying driving her every day now!

[MBlaster1]

Thanks Brad. I will save that for future.

[Plazticpaddy]

Thanks everybody - excited to try all this out this weekend! :-). And I did actually just buy (waiting shipment) the ignitor 2. Love this forum...

[Plazticpaddy]

Well....

-I replaced my points/condenser with ignitor 2 and new flamethrower coil
-I have fuel squirting through my carbs
-I think my electrical is good since my voltage seems to be fine based on the above...

[bbodie52]

Sooooo...

How is your Corvair running now???

[Plazticpaddy]

It's not!! Same problem...

[bbodie52]

Well, we still need to know if it is ignition or fuel. Let's start with ignition. Did you wire a resistor bypass, as described in the Pertronix II instructions? If not, how about placing a temporary jumper wire between the battery positive terminal and the ignition coil positive terminal. Then see if the car will start. (This bypasses the starter switch, resistor wire, everything! It guarantees 12VDC at the positive coil lead. When you crank the engine, will it start in this configuration?

Left-click on each image to enlarge...

[Plazticpaddy]

Progress!!!

First, I ran the jumper wire to the coil, and it started right up! :-). Of course when I removed the wire it died.

Second (and I type this sheepishly), I read the part about ballist resistor in my directions and I had no bloody clue what it was talking about?? So where and what the heck is it?? I'm going to Google it right now...

[bbodie52]

Progress!!!

First, I ran the jumper wire to the coil, and it started right up! :-). Of course when I removed the wire it died.

Second (and I type this sheepishly), I read the part about ballist resistor in my directions and I had no bloody clue what it was talking about?? So where and what the heck is it?? I'm going to Google it right now...

So this places us full circle back to the earlier guess that there is a problem with the primary voltage feed from the ignition switch, through the resistor wire and to the coil. Only 7-8V DC normally gets to the coil via this path, but when you crank the engine with the starter another voltage source is temporarily engaged by the starter solenoid to feed a full 12V DC to the coil. This gives the factory coil a higher source voltage to energize the coil windings to produce a "hotter" spark, to make it easier to start a cold engine. But as soon as the ignition key is released it returns to the ON position, and the starter solenoid disengages, which cuts off the cranking voltage feed to the coil. THIS LEAVES ONLY THE LOWER RUNNING VOLTAGE FEED THROUGH THE RESISTOR WIRE, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS NOT WORKING ON YOUR CAR. That is why the engine briefly starts while the engine is being cranked, but it shuts down when the starter is disengaged. There is no running voltage getting to the coil.

In addition, the resistor circuit with the lower 7-8V DC is only desirable when you are using ignition points in your distributor. The intent was to lower the running voltage that is being switched on and off by the points, to help the points to last longer. But the Pertronix ignition eliminates the points and does not run properly with only 7-8V DC. It needs a full 12V DC all the time when the engine is running (which you created temporarily with the battery to coil jumper bypass you installed to test your ignition system). Now you need to install a permanent wiring change to bypass the hidden resistor wire.

First, you need to make sure that 12V DC is getting from the starter ignition switch at the dashboard through the wiring harness to the engine compartment wiring harness multi-connector. If it is not, there is a problem with the ignition switch or connectors and wiring harness.

You can see the circuit in question in the diagram below by locating the Positive (+) terminal on the coil near the top of the diagram. Follow the 20 B/Y (20 gauge Black with Yellow Stripe) wire from the coil back to a two-pin connector. The other side of this connector continues through the engine sheet metal to the starter solenoid. This is how your cranking 12V DC gets from the starter solenoid to the coil. But if you look carefully at the two-pin connector, you will see a second 20 B/P (20 gauge Black with Pink Stripe) wire is wired to that same connection point. In the diagram, if you follow the 20 B/P wire back you will see it goes through a zig-zag (/\/\/\/\) resistor symbol and then on to a 10-pin connector. The physical resistor wire in the engine compartment looks like any other wire, but it is special in that it contains a resistance that reduces the voltage from 12V DC to 7-8V DC. This is the wire you need to bypass. But first you need to make certain that 12V DC is present at the 10-pin multi-connector when the ignition key is in the ON position. You can do this by temporarily separating the two halves of the plastic multi-connector. To try to confuse you the corresponding wire changes color on the other half of the connector. In the wiring diagram it is an 18 B (18 gauge Black) wire. Locate this wire pin on the half of the wiring connector that goes to the firewall. With the key ON, you should be able to measure 12V DC by grounding the black multimeter test lead (to the battery negative terminal or to a good chassis ground metal point) and touching the red test lead to the appropriate pin in the multi-connector. If voltage is present with the key ON, your wiring from the ignition key to the harness multi-connector is OK. If it is not present, you will have to trace back to the ignition switch at the dashboard and see if the voltage is present there when the key is ON. If it is not present at the ignition switch output, the switch itself may be bad.

Once you have 12V DC present at the firewall multi-connector 18 B pin, your goal is to create a new wiring harness piece between that connector and wire it directly to the ignition coil positive terminal, bypassing the 20 B/P wire completely. This will eliminate the resistor wire. A functioning circuit that provides 12V DC all the way from the ignition switch, through the 18 B wire, and to the coil positive terminal will get your car running again.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Click on the diagram with the mouse to enlarge the image for better viewing...

1964 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Diagram

[Plazticpaddy]

…thanks for all the great help - I'll re-attack this weekend!!!