Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

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davemotohead
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by davemotohead »

MonzaDave wrote:
davemotohead wrote:Unless,,it truly never had any rust at all rust free! the pic of the red car is the best one I have ever pulled out of the desert,it has not 1 speck of rust and not one dent,I am sanding it down and painting it,no bodywork required,the orange one has a few parking lot door dings.
That's your assessment. Others on the this thread have a different definition of "rust free". If I'm considering paying 5 figures for a Corvair, I'm going to perform my own evaluation of rust. Are you absolutely sure there is no corrosion under the factory lead? OTOH, if I'm paying low 4 figures, I can afford to take a chance and find out later what's under the factory lead and filler.
Well the lead is not bubbled up and there are no cracks,not one spec of rust anywhere I can find,both front/rear windshield channels are clean,,I am sure not going to pull up the lead and look needlessly and ruin what I consider to be a perfect rust free body! I have cut up enough of these to certainly know rust prone area's, Of the 100's of these car's I have owned over the years I would say the red one is the most perfect body I have ever come across, I would say my assessment is pretty darn good!

rowin4
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by rowin4 »

I think what should be learned from this original post is inspection. We know that this web sight is world wide, that's amazing in itself. Buyers and sellers are all over the world as with this buyer, buying a car in the great USA. It probably would have been a good idea to have someone in the area that was knowledgeable in Corvairs to check it out. The buyer must give the inspector a check list as to what he expects of the car and is the car as described by the seller. I have bought a number of cars sight unseen off the internet and all have been better than the pictures or videos but they weren't 5 digit cars .

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terribleted
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by terribleted »

Panel bond is no replacement for welding. It works for many things but I would not use it where there were welds in the original, nor, would I use it in a structural area on a Corvair and most of the car is structure.


"Rust Free" Most people can not even identify serious rust. They do not know that those little bubbles in the lower doors are actually rust holes. Peoples lack of knowledge and greatly varied idea of what is serious rust makes any such statements dubious at best.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
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Located in Snellville, Georgia

mart
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by mart »

Jimbo wrote:mart, better than weld "in a lot of places" not for suspension but in the right place it is the way to go. Jimbo :fc front:
believe me, there are a lot of people out there who will use it in a lot of places. In a modern car, which is designed to use this product in certain areas, thats fine. On a door skin or trunk lid, thats fine too.A corvair , and all other older unibody cars , use the whole structure for strength, gluing something on , no matter how good the product ,will not retain the structures strength like welding

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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by MonzaDave »

davemotohead wrote: Well the lead is not bubbled up and there are no cracks,not one spec of rust anywhere I can find,both front/rear windshield channels are clean,,I am sure not going to pull up the lead and look needlessly and ruin what I consider to be a perfect rust free body! I have cut up enough of these to certainly know rust prone area's, Of the 100's of these car's I have owned over the years I would say the red one is the most perfect body I have ever come across, I would say my assessment is pretty darn good!
I'm sure your assessment is correct -- you have a strict definition of "rust free" and you know your rust. Others may have neither. Hence the need for inspection by a person knowledgeable in Corvairs if you're paying real money. The problem is that a lot of Corvair aficionados are still at the "a-little-rust-is-okay-and-is-to-be-expected" end of the scale.

As an aside, think of what your rust free Corvair would be worth if it was a first generation Camaro.
Dave Keillor
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robertto
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by robertto »

Please don´t understand me wrong.

I am into old cars for over 25 years now. I have owned a lot of old cars, Volkswagen Beetle, Karmann Ghia, Type 3, Volvo PV544, BMW 2002, Porsche 911, ´69 Pontiac Firebird etc.

There are no really "rust-free" cars in the scene, maybe one or two of thousand, driven 30 years in a desert clima zone.
98 Percent of all classic cars has some surface rust in the hollow of the body.

I know a Corvair-body has a lot of unpainted steel, when it came out of the factory. In my opinion there is no completely rust free Corvair, except a complete sandblasted and painted one. But that is not the point.

The car was described as "...IT WAS NEARLY RUST FREE WHEN WE STARTED...ALL RUST WAS CUT OUT AND METAL EXERTLY WELDED IN..."!!!
Corvairb2.JPG
So, I found a big rusthole after 3 minutes inspection, on a Corvair bought from a couple of longtime Corvair enthusiasts. Their name themself "Corvair Rescue Team"

And believe me, at home meanwhile we found another rustholes! Not surface rust, not rusty parts, but rather RUSTHOLES!!!

I do not understand, the "Corvair Rescue Team" invested a lot of time and money in the car, but did not the basic things for a correct restoration.

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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by mart »

MonzaDave wrote:
davemotohead wrote: Well the lead is not bubbled up and there are no cracks,not one spec of rust anywhere I can find,both front/rear windshield channels are clean,,I am sure not going to pull up the lead and look needlessly and ruin what I consider to be a perfect rust free body! I have cut up enough of these to certainly know rust prone area's, Of the 100's of these car's I have owned over the years I would say the red one is the most perfect body I have ever come across, I would say my assessment is pretty darn good!
I'm sure your assessment is correct -- you have a strict definition of "rust free" and you know your rust. Others may have neither. Hence the need for inspection by a person knowledgeable in Corvairs if you're paying real money. The problem is that a lot of Corvair aficionados are still at the "a-little-rust-is-okay-and-is-to-be-expected" end of the scale.

As an aside, think of what your rust free Corvair would be worth if it was a first generation Camaro.
We suffer from the same experts/aficionados over here in the UK, but they tend to favour VW's, where ignorance is revered and bodging is normal

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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by UGLYTRUK »

CIMG7428 (Small).JPG
Even tho I'm in the States, the only place I shop for cars is in the South West. I just requested a return of a deposit for a '85 Suburban I thot I purchased. The truck is in Reno Nevada, the desert if ever there was one. But after I sent a small deposit, the seller emails me pix, and it's a RUST BUCKET! the Craigs List ad doesn't show any rust! Turns out it came from the north. Now I hope to get my deposit back, luckily only $100, not the $500 I could have easily sent! And the rust is holes in the LR 1/4, bottom of doors etc...

Back to Corvairs... When I go to the various New England and mid-west show, It pains me to see the beautiful Corvairs with obvious rust repair. As others have stated above, once a car is rusted, what kind of repair was done? And then you have the issue of welded steel plastered with bondo. IMO the inside panel would need to be covered with a creeping rust preventative, like the Fluid Film I use on my rust free western vehicles I bring to the salty east. And even tho I buy my trucks from the dry west and south west, they usually have some minor rust holes, and they're from the 80's, not 60's, so 100% rust free is a difficult critter to aquire, but the CORSA in question from Iowa was obviously a rotted car, typical of the region.

I hear from folks all the time saying "rust is just at the bottom, really solid etc..." But when they live in the rainy snowy salty areas of the country, don't expect a desert vehicle, and alot of cars move around the country cause a rusty example is alot cheaper than a rust free one, so folks may buy one to save a buck thinking welding in some steel after the rust is chopped out is the same a a DaveMotoHead example.

The folks selling the CORSA in question are used to rusty cars, and this one my have had alot less rust than the usual broken in half ones they were used to seeing. Anything is relative. I now have found another Suburban ('84), also in Reno, and the seller says it has some surface rust. Pictures reveal patina rust, a BIG difference from a swiss cheese beater!

And have we discussed the rebuilt mechanical aspects???

Notes on my car now...

I recently bot a '65 Monza from a good friend in Detroit. The car looked great, and was from Arizona before he bot it 17 years before, so should be rust free! After I got it home, closer inspection revealed a good amount of bondo in the RR 1/4. I pulled away the interior/engine compartment insulation, which appeared original and never disturbed, and there's just the lightest coating of surface rust on 25% of the lower 1/4, zero rot, so must have had a dent, and the bondo is not a big deal. The LR 1/4 also seems to have been replaced as it's braze-welded on, not spot welded as GM would have done from the factory. So what happened? Who knows, 50 years has alot of secrets...

As far a windshield rust goes, it's the original windshield, as revealed by the urethane embedded in a fine cloth sheath, something not replicable as far as I know. But the left rocker has rust residue seeping out, a sign that there's rust inside the rocker, and problematic issue on LM 'verts, and nothing can be done about it now. Maybe I'll just pump in some Fluid Film... and it'll always be stored indoors, so it won't deteriorate further.

Can we see the bottom of the CORSA? Who knows if even a Corvair expert would be able to discover well repaired rust? Watch the just posted Jay Leno vid... Indiana Yenko Stinger... got rust???

UGLYTRUK
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by UGLYTRUK »

I just read the copy if the ebay listing, says 'pictures of the car before the resto". Can we see them? I bet every panel has the typical rust at the extremities

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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by jtvairs »

Roberto, our friend! First, you didn't pay $15k for the car, you paid $12,200 and we refunded you $500. The car was not purchased from Ebay. In our advertisement, we stated that any rust was expertly cut out and welded in, and it was. The fact that a very SMALL spot inside the gas door, up high, was missed by the body man was not misleading or deceptive on our part, it was simply not seen.
Initially, you asked for $2500 in damages. Sir, this is a repair in a non structural area that could be easily and completely repaired. You chose to insult us for recommending 'shoddy' work. We have discussed this repair with several reputable body shops and they all agreed with our recommendations.

We offered to you to fly here and view the car. You chose to purchase it sight unseen. You had the opportunity to reject the car in LA. You notified us that you found the little hole inside the gas door, but you accepted the car. At that time, you exhausted your options when you agreed to take the $500 and consider it resolved. We took a lot of care describing the car, sending photos of before and after our restoration, which everyone knows, we are not a commercial shop or dealership. We are a couple of hobbyists who love to keep Corvairs on the road. Because we didn't meet your European standards, standards you did not describe prior to the sale, you own the results.

We could certainly post portions of your communications that would reflect a negative light upon you, but at this point, we won't. What we'll explain for the Corvair Community is that integrity is integrity, no matter the distance or the language barrier. If you had a high level of perfection, it would have been in your best interest to fly in and see the car prior to purchasing. In no way would we ever pass along a car with a flaw without disclosing that flaw.

We are deeply disappointed with the drama and the misleading statements from you, Roberto. The car is worth what you paid for it, and more.

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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by jtvairs »

Roberto:
Upon reviewing my e mails with you on the subject, I have decided to disclose and this: a direct copy and paste of your last communication with us, when you accepted $500 toward the repairs
Delivered to us on October 28, 2013:

Dear Teresa, dear John,

I stated my points.

If you will accept a pay back of $ 500.- it will be also fine to me and I will never loose any word of this unlucky detail otherwise of a very correct deal.

MfG Robert Tomitzi

our promise was kept, we gave you $500 and a wonderful 65 Corsa. We also apologized profusely because we all missed it. We had this car for several years and watched the restoration with care. I guess when Corvairs reach $50K we'll all have to take a little better care with the restorations. But for now, in the US, they are still the "poor man's porche" and that's what we are, low tech, keep em on the road, Corvair folks.

UGLYTRUK
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by UGLYTRUK »

"There's always two sides to a story, I don't have time to listen to yours".

the fact that before (and after) pix were disclosed means there's a good chance the rust damage was visible to buyer, but to miss a rot hole seems kinda, well, what word to use to not insult the restorer??? In fairness, it's really expensive and time consuming to restore any car, and one with rust will need more attention, and that costs money...

On another note, a friend of mine sells later model used cars, and makes a video, and they look great! Then he brings the camera in closer, and all kinds of blemishes show up that were invisible in a whole shot pix. He uses an expensive camera, and it will focus to a few inches away. He doesn't hide anything, and I've seen alot in person of cars that I've seen in ads, and they don't look as good in person. I can see sellers points, but I think the rust hole should have been clearly disclosed, whether or not someones State or Country inspection is stringent.

Can we see the before pix? And during pix? The resto wasn't done by a robot, and someones pride, care and craftsmanship is on the line

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MonzaDave
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by MonzaDave »

UGLYTRUK wrote:Can we see the before pix? And during pix? The resto wasn't done by a robot, and someones pride, care and craftsmanship is on the line
Can we close this thread? Everyone has made their points and any further discussion will only inflame.
Dave Keillor
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by jtvairs »

No, the rust damage wasn't visible without a concentrated inspection. Inside the gas door area, up high and if you leaned over the trunk, put your head upside down, you could find it. If you had a flashlight or very good lighting.
Here's the topic, not whether or not our restoration was "worthy" The topic is that we discussed it with Roberto and agreed upon a settlement. We apologized that the spot was missed, but as we all know, crap happens. Roberto's thread on the Corvair Forum misleads the reader, injects drama that isn't necessary. The car is actually not "rotten"
When the car didn't sell on Ebay, we decided to keep it. It was Roberto that repeatedly messaged us, pressing us to sell it to him. I can show communication where I told him the car was not for sale (Teresa). Especially for someone who could not come inspect the car himself, and had communication issues. He pressed John until he agreed to sell the car. In advance of the sale, he had photos that showed that we did not disassemble the car prior to the body and paint work. We initially restored the car just for our use and never communicated that it was a complete disassemble of the automobile. He knew that it was a nice resto, but not a $30K resto. We all know that if you are to dismantle a car for a restoration, you cannot expect to purchase that car for $12k
In our advertisement, we stated that the car was nearly rust free when we started. For a small area deep inside the car, I'd say it's time to move on folks. Roberto agreed to the settlement and received a really great car for the price. I'd be glad to provide about 50 very happy stories, but as we all know, it's the drama stories that get more attention.

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MBlaster1
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by MBlaster1 »

I agree lets close this thread. sounds like both have there sides and no one here can know for sure, What transpired between the buyer and seller.
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malibusled
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Re: Hidden secrets of a $15k offered Corvair

Post by malibusled »

It's a shame that people take personal issues to a public forum. It appears the issue was settled long before this thread was started.
The whole transaction appears to have happened quite a while ago.

IMHO the thread shouldn't have been started in the first place.

Time to move on, kill the thread before more feelings get hurt and reputations tarnished.
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