'62 Monza convertible "Ralphie"

[Dennis66]

So here's the new "acquisition". A 1962 Monza convertible. A 4 speed car, white, white top, red interior (I've had a thing for the red interiors since I was a kid). Top and interior were replaced years ago. While it was originally advertised as having a rebuilt engine, the engine, while appearing to have had some work done, certainly doesn't look "rebuilt". It appears to be a 110 HP, and not the original 145CID 102HP (it has a harmonic balancer and the upward crankcase vent tube instead of the road draft tube used on the 1962s. The engine does have an aluminum pan, but not the deep pan (probably a good thing. The engine was suspended in the engine compartment by a 4" nylon strap that was wrapped around everything (I'll have to post a picture of that later). The transaxle was in the trunk. It appears someone may have tried to remove the transaxle to replace the clutch as the transmission was obviously removed improperly. There is a NOS GM crankshaft that has light surface rust on the throws, but the journals appear to be well greased. There is a set of Clevite bearing shells all still boxed. a complete gasket set was also included. 4 new brake drums, a set of rear shoes, underneath it appears to have new rear springs and shocks. The transmission clutch shaft was missing, but I already bought a NOS one off evilbay. Definitely missing some carb screws that hold the linkage on, the choke rods, and the bellows and the temperature control doors. I'm thinking I might try running the engine on a stand to see how it does. That's probably still a week before I get to that. Dennis

[attachment=0]Front of Corvair.jpg

[gbullman]

Welcome and good luck with your project, it does look like it has “good bones”!

[Dennis66]

So here's the way the engine was "mounted". It was held in by the single rear mount nut, and the nylon strap wrapped around everything. It was also wedged up against the forward face of the engine compartment. I was told that it had shipped from California on a transport this way and that there was a Porsche parked on the transport UNDER the Corvair (well, that's what I was TOLD). I can tell you this: I think I have had bolted in engines that were easier to remove. Dennis

[Dennis66]

So I changed the title of my post to more accurately describe what I'm doing. The other biggie today was my NOS transmission input shaft arrived. I thought I'd stick it in th epilot bearing to see how worn it might be. Good news: the pilot bearing is good and tight. Bad news: the shaft wiggled around - BROKEN CRANKSHAFT! . Now I know why it came with a NOS crank still in the box and a set of Clevite bearing shells. The pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together. Dennis

[66vairguy]

So I changed the title of my post to more accurately describe what I'm doing. The other biggie today was my NOS transmission input shaft arrived. I thought I'd stick it in th epilot bearing to see how worn it might be. Good news: the pilot bearing is good and tight. Bad news: the shaft wiggled around - BROKEN CRANKSHAFT! . Now I know why it came with a NOS crank still in the box and a set of Clevite bearing shells. The pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together. Dennis

Sounds like you are making good progress. Make sure the NOS crankshaft is correct for the engine. The 145c.i. engine used the short stroke, the 110HP engine would use the longer stroke crankshaft. If you don't have the crankshaft cast numbers, then ask.

While broken crankshafts aren't common, they do happen. Contributing causes are solid flywheel and a solid pulley instead of a harmonic balancer.

Keep in mind when folks put the larger 110HP engine on the EM transaxle things may seem to work, but beginning in 1964 with the longer stroke engine the crank gear, flywheel, bell housing, pressure plate, throwout bearing, were all changed! Yes folks bolt up the bigger engine to the "smaller" engine transaxle and it seems to work ---- for a while!! BTW --- the 1964-65 fours speeds were the best of the first generation transmissions. Corvair made transmission changes almost every year until the finally got it right with they1964 transmission, that also was revised for greater torque from the larger 64 engine.

Good luck with the detective work. Sounds like a good project.

[bbodie52]

I guess I have a "soft spot" for 1962 Corvairs, since I drove one in 1972 on my wedding day — and on our honeymoon in Monterey, California and on the very scenic 17 Mile Drive, in Carmel. The 1962 Monza was powered by the first Corvair engine I overhauled at age 16 (in 1969). I also have a thing for white Early Model Corvair Monzas with red interiors, since our very first family Corvair was purchased in 1961 by my parents when I was about 8 years old. It was a brand new white 1961 Corvair Monza 4-speed with a red interior. In 1970 I also owned a white 1963 Monza (Spyder) convertible that I drove to my high school each day.

It sounds like you have your work cut out for you in the engine compartment, but overall the car looks good! I tried a little photographic clean up work that will hopefully serve to inspire you with the car's good looks and potential as you work.

[Dennis66]

Thanks for the "clean up" on the pictures and the encouraging words. I brought the car home a week ago. Saturday, a beautiful day, was spent cleaning it up and starting to figure out what all I had (it was the car, the engine strapped in the rear, the transaxle and a bunch of parts in the trunk, and a large tote full of other parts. No pictures were made Saturday. Sunday was gray and gloomy (not a good day for convertible "publicity pictures). The rest of the week, it was semi-dark by time I get home from work. Eventually, I'll get better pictures.
The engine: I'm pretty sure I have a 164 CID "replacement" engine. It has a harmonic balancer, and there is a brass pipe plug on the lower right hand side of the block that I don't remember from any of my previous Corvair experiences, which include the van, pickup and wagon engines with their rear dipstick and oil fill. The engine does have the early sheet metal lowers. I'll know more when I start taking apart, which will probably be about a week out.
Flywheel / Clutch - early / late. I just read a little about this in the Clark's book that came with the car. I wasn't aware of the differences in the early vs late clutches and transmissions. This surprises me with as many as I took apart so many years ago. I did put an early engine ($10.00) in my '65 Corsa convertible ($25.00). I don't remember what I used for clutch and flywheel other than I don't remember having any problems. From what I see, if I use the '62 ''flat" flywheel, straight finger pressure plate, correct throw out bearing, and '62 transaxle, the rest of it should work (I hope?) Dennis

[bbodie52]

The 1960-1963 CLUTCH FORK PIVOT BALL STUD was different from the 1964-1969 pivot ball stud. The former matches the flat flywheel/flat finger pressure plate, while the latter is a match for the stepped flywheel/bent finger pressure plate. The correct throw out bearing is also required. Discovering that you missed something and have a component mismatch is something you don't want to do, since correcting this requires dropping the powertrain again!


https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... w_page=108

[66vairguy]

Thanks for the "clean up" on the pictures and the encouraging words. I brought the car home a week ago. Saturday, a beautiful day, was spent cleaning it up and starting to figure out what all I had (it was the car, the engine strapped in the rear, the transaxle and a bunch of parts in the trunk, and a large tote full of other parts. No pictures were made Saturday. Sunday was gray and gloomy (not a good day for convertible "publicity pictures). The rest of the week, it was semi-dark by time I get home from work. Eventually, I'll get better pictures.
The engine: I'm pretty sure I have a 164 CID "replacement" engine. It has a harmonic balancer, and there is a brass pipe plug on the lower right hand side of the block that I don't remember from any of my previous Corvair experiences, which include the van, pickup and wagon engines with their rear dipstick and oil fill. The engine does have the early sheet metal lowers. I'll know more when I start taking apart, which will probably be about a week out.
Flywheel / Clutch - early / late. I just read a little about this in the Clark's book that came with the car. I wasn't aware of the differences in the early vs late clutches and transmissions. This surprises me with as many as I took apart so many years ago. I did put an early engine ($10.00) in my '65 Corsa convertible ($25.00). I don't remember what I used for clutch and flywheel other than I don't remember having any problems. From what I see, if I use the '62 ''flat" flywheel, straight finger pressure plate, correct throw out bearing, and '62 transaxle, the rest of it should work (I hope?) Dennis

I'm always surprised by the fact so little is known about all the changes when the longer stroke engine came into production in the 1964 model year. From what I've read ---- the clutch pressure plate tended to lose diaphragm pressure at high RPM due to centrifugal force. This caused clutch slipping at high RPM (aggressive) shifting). Remember this design was done for the low HP early Corvairs before the HP was increased to boost sales. Anyway ----- to revise the pressure plate assembly the flywheel was stepped and (what most don't know) is the crank shaft gear mounting surface for the flywheel was changed (Clark's sells the 60-63 and 64-69 crank gears). If you use the 60-63 bellhousing with the 64-49 crankshaft the flywheel WILL intermittently strike the bellhousing to block bolts (I've seen this). So the 64-69 bellhousing was revised to clear the new flywheel AND the crank seal position is different. Also the throw out lever pivot ball is DIFFERENT. So to make it all FIT a lot of changes were made. That said with the proper transmission output shaft the EM transaxle should bolt up to the long stroke engine with 64-69 bellhousing, flywheel, pressure plate. If you want to keep all the 60-63 parts you'll have to change the crank gear to the 60-63 style (not advised).

Another UNKNOWN --- for decades folks have been replacing the differential pinion gear shaft (splines wear out) with good used. A few folks in South Coast Corsa found the 66-69 pinion gear shaft was SHORTER and if you put in an earlier pinion shaft it a 66-69 transaxle it will eventually cause the transmission output bearing to fail and KABOOM, catastrophic failure! It took the SCC folks over a year to finally convince the "EXPERTS" at CORSA this was a problem. The experts just could not believe nobody had discovered this earlier. Finally a fellow found the old GM blue-prints PROVING the change was made!!

[Dennis66]

Thank you for the expert and experienced advice. This was one of the reasons I changed the title. Hopefully, future owners with the '63 and older will more easily find answers or better yet, avoid mistakes. I've learned this on other forums (Isuzus - no longer own any, Subaru Baja - daily driver, and Coot ATV - leaving me soon because Corvair replaced it). My second Corvair, a '66 500 coupe (POC) had an issue where the flywheel occasionally was hitting one of the bell housing bolts. At the time, I was told it was because of loose flywheel rivets. The car didn't last long as it was pieced together to begin with.
So, is there a way to tell this early bell housing from the later ones? Dennis

[Dennis66]

Here's the latest: I just popped the bellhousing off. looks like it's broken on the #5 or #6 throw. The cam gear is boogered up. I have: TO427Z for a block number, 3813516 on my right head. The cam is engraved. "X91M Thundercam? 0 09 2603HYD 221" Does this mean anything to anyone? My concern at this point will be for the bearing bore in the front web being damaged. Full teardown will determine that. I'll try to add the cam picture. Dennis

Note how they beat the cam gear on. REALLY? There's a proper way to assemble an engine. I've run into this before, people who don't know or understand Corvair engines trying a rebuild. Had one where the cylinder baffles had been installed on TOP of the cylinders. D.

Edit 2 So apparently the engine was built April 27th. Head number indicates it is a 62-63 head. So maybe I have an original engine that was fitted with a harmonic balancer? Now I need to check my new crank and see if it's a 145 or a 164 crank. That will be tomorrow when it isn't raining.

[66vairguy]

I'm amazed the cam gear stayed on!!! I know from experience they are NOT easy to install and STAY TIGHT. I read all about freezing the cam, heating the cam gear in an oven --- total disaster. That aluminum gear cools VERY FAST. I finally let Jeff at California Corvair install his BILLET cam gear (better than stock, or Clark's cast gear). Even more difficult to install. Jeff has a heat plate that keeps the gear hot while the camshaft is inserted quickly. If you don't keep the gear hot, then the camshaft will broach the gear hole and it WILL come loose eventually.

According to my notes --- the 60-63 bell housing casting number is (on bellhousing) 625583, the 64-59 bell housing casting number is 3832176. I recall on the 64-59 bellhousing (side against engine) there is a dollar sized indentation - not sure, others can comment.

About the heads ---- In 65 (not on the 64 long stroke engine) the cylinder tops had a wider gasket surface. So you cannot use 65-66 cylinders with 60-64 heads AND the longer stroke cylinders are notched for crankshaft!!!! BTW - AFAIK the earlier cylinders and crankshaft will work in a latter block. So you probably have a FRAKEN engine! If you like learning and making things work you'll have some fun. I suggest you buy some Corvair books. Clark's sells the "JUNKYARD PRIMER" that lists all the engine part numbers.

Yup cranks almost always break at the 5/6 throw. BTW - it's why the Corvair has the UNIQUE three piece (damping) flywheel. Engineer Benzinger gave a nice talk at a COSA convention and said the Corvair was designed ONLY for a Powerglide transmission, but at the last minute a manual transmission was requested to compete with Ford and Chrysler (their compacts sold the automatic as an EXTRA COST option). Benzinger said when they took the test mule for a drive it made a huge racket and rumble with noticeable vibration at certain RPM ranges. They discovered the PG flex plate and torque converter DAMPED the flexing in the crankshaft! A solid flywheel on the 5/6 end caused the flywheel to resonate with the crank at certain RPM. It took a few tries before the came up with a flywheel riveted to an elliptical (thicker at crank bolt holes) flex plate (that wound not crack). It was a brilliant piece of engineering - except the darn rivets come loose at around 50 to 90 thousand miles. BTW Porsche designed their flat six AFTER the Corvair engine design and they found the same issue!!! Porsche added a LOT of main crank bearings (two on the flywheel end) to fix the issue.

Good luck and I hope it all works out.

[Dennis66]

The "Ralphie update": I checked a lot of numbers and I do indeed have the early bell housing. My cylinder heads match for the 1962 year, and my NOS crankshaft is the correct crank for a 145 CID engine. I did get he engine mounted to my engine stand (kind of tricky with the bell housing removed. As I was disassembling the shrouds and other parts, I used a small parts drawer cabinet to separate the various bolts to make reassembly easier. I haven't gone into major disassembly yet as i have other "loose ends" to tie up before getting deep into the Corvair (ATV and sail boat need to go away to keep WIFE happy). I did clean up the engine compartment (something about a white car with a greasy engine compartment). I was kind of concerned about what was in the upper front corners (rust?) and the funky rubberized coating on the battery box (more rust?). Turns out the stuff in the corners is discoloring of the caulk or body putty that was there, and the rubberized coating peeled right off (well, most of it). NO rust found. I'm also including a picture of my Data plate. Dennis

[Dennis66]

So a little more slow progress coming on the build. Last week I found the left front carpet a bit wet so I pulled it (more on this later). I found the front floors slightly rusty with some flaking and pitting on the driver side, but no rust through. I spent Saturday morning hitting the rusty areas with a wire wheel on my angle grinder then treating the area with vinegar and baking soda. After that, I hit it again, then a treatment with some Ospho and finally a coat of Rustoleum rusty metal primer. I'll eventually give it a red topcoat as the rest of the floors seem to have been painted red.
I never had an EM convertible before, so this is new territory to me. Apparently, the early convertibles have heater ducts running down each side of the interior footwells (obviously strengthened areas for the convertible). For some reason the left side had some water in it, maybe even from my pressure washing the engine compartment last week (although I kind of doubt that). It also seems that because of the construction, the EM convertibles have the front carpet in 3 pieces instead of a single molded carpet. This seems to be an older replacement carpet kit, but it will do for now.
Moved on to the brakes. For some reason the car came with 4 new brake drums in the trunk and none mounted at each wheel. I already knew there was a new master cylinder, but was curious about the rest. I found both rear wheel cylinders with the seals pushed out (someone must have pushed down on the pedal w/o the drums installed. The left side was missing the parking brake strut and spring (ordered from California Corvairs), and I noticed, and now know that the 1962 model did NOT come with self adjusting brakes. I removed the axles, backing plates, hoses and cylinders. The rear hoses appear to be newer as well, the wheel cylinders seem good (no pitting or scarring) so I will clean all of that up, and put in a couple of wheel cylinder kits. so far, the hard lines look good, but I haven't dropped the tunnel cover yet. The rear axle bearings also appear to have been modified for lubricating with a hole drilled in the bottom and a rubber cover over the hole (I'll be looking more closely at all of that later). No picture of any of this work, just a project update. Dennis

[bbodie52]

You may find this lvideo presentation useful and informative...

FROM THE WORKBENCH OF LARRY CLAYPOOL — CORVAIR BRAKES

viewtopic.php?p=123057&hilit=brakes#p123057


Were the wheel cylinders disassembled and inspected? Sometimes internal corrosion or deposits cause a piston to stick. Also, the flexible brake lines can swell internally and block fluid flow, which might cause problems with weak brake shoe application.

You have mentioned some bits and pieces of the brake system that have been serviced or partially serviced, but it is hard to know the exact condition of the entire BRAKE SYSTEM from your description. It is important that the entire system be fully checked, inspected, and serviced to ensure safe driving. 1966 and earlier Corvairs had a single master cylinder, so a leak or failure in any segment of the system would result in a complete failure of the hydraulic brakes. Only the cable-operated emergency parking brake would remain operational.

In 1967 a mandatory design change was implemented to utilize a DUAL MASTER CYLINDER in all passenger cars. With a dual master cylinder, the front and rear hydraulic brake systems are divided into two segments, so that a failure like a brake hose leak or blown steel brake line, or a leaky wheel cylinder will only disable 1/2 of the vehicle brakes, while some level of braking would remain with the other half. An upgrade is possible, essentially replacing the single master cylinder with a bolt-in dual master cylinder. Some plumbing modification is also needed with this upgrade, which is often offered in the form of a kit. You might consider such an upgrade on your Corvair. Also, a failure in one flexible brake line may be a warning sign that all four aging flexible lines may be candidates for replacement. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, in that it absorbs moisture from the air and should be flushed and replaced every few years. Moisture in the fluid can lower the boiling point and produce brake fade. Water in the fluid can also cause corrosion and decay in the wheel cylinders and steel brake lines, which can result in a system failure.

Your brake system is critically important to passenger safety. The condition of the overall system should be well-maintained as a whole system, since a failure in any portion of it can be catastrophic. Your description is of a brake system that has already suffered periodic failures in various portions of the system. I would recommend checking and servicing, and upgrading or restoring the complete system so that you know it is in good condition.

https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... w_page=145



More to consider when inspecting your aging brake system...

The brake system in your aging Corvair needs to be inspected regularly. Brake fluid should be flushed and replaced every few years. Excess water build-up in the fluid can rust steel brake lines and cause internal corrosive damage to the wheel and master cylinders. Decaying brake lines can burst without warning as they rust internally.

The brake system in your aging Corvair needs to be monitored. The condition of the aging seals in the master cylinder and wheel cylinders is certainly questionable. All should be inspected regularly. The flexible brake hoses also should be monitored, as they can swell on the inside and restrict brake fluid flow. Of course the drums and brake components should be inspected and repaired, as needed, and the brake fluid should be flushed and replaced every few years. (Brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs moisture from the air over time. Excess water build-up in the fluid can rust steel brake lines and cause corrosive damage to the internal wheel and master cylinders. Moisture in the brake fluid will also lower the boiling point, which can result in early brake fade as the brakes get hot).

The parking brake assembly is also critically important — not only as an emergency brake but because the Powerglide-equipped Corvair has no PARK position to lock the transmission when you park the vehicle. You must rely completely on the parking brake system to secure the vehicle when it is parked. The front and rear cables and the pulleys should be inspected periodically and lubricated as needed. A frayed cable can separate without warning and possibly leave your Corvair rolling down a hill or driveway if it snaps.

https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... graygo.y=0


https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... graygo.y=0


https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... graygo.y=0


https://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... graygo.y=0

[66vairguy]

Dennis66 - you are making good progress.

There was one shop manual for the 62 and 63 models. It does state the 1963 models were upgraded to self adjusting brakes. I've never done it, but upgrading the 62 models to the 63 self adjusting is a popular modification. Keep in mind that self adjusting brakes have a greater number of parts!

Installing a dual master cylinder is a good idea, BUT I don't recommend the Clark's kit. Odd plumbing and most now do their own setup by adding a second brake "T" vs. running the Clark's line out into the trunk (were it's prone to getting hit and bent) and through a drilled bulkhead hole that requires the line to the rear to be BENT. Many articles and pictures have been posted on the CCF forum on how to do it. Keeps all the hard lines near the master cylinder. Hopefully when the Clark's sell off all there old dual MS kits they will get someone to to do a kit typical of what most do now.

Most parts stores should have a dual master cylinder for a 67 Corvair (used on many Chevy models in 67). Getting the line and fittings can take some work. Now not that many auto parts places carry brake lines and fittings now for 60's cars. Note the dual MS brake line fittings are a unique size for front and rear lines common to GM systems then.

Bending brake lines can be tricky as they can kink (and then it's junk). A long time ago a mechanic taught me to fill the brake lines with sand before bending them. It produces a smooth bend (oil the outside of the line so it doesn't bind in the tube bender). Of course you have to clean out the lines afterward.