1964 four door automatic project by remote

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66vairguy
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:18 pm

I just found this at the other site - an update on mechanical fuel pump issues.

See http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,919076

Ecklund
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:21 pm

Swngaxl wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:24 pm
Just my 2 cents, I would suggest getting a feel for the car with stock springs before delving into making changes. I agree completely that you can easily play with balance by simply adjusting front tire pressure. Also, just putting the spare in the trunk can make a difference. Pretty amazing actually how much you can change it. Keep pressure the same all around and you have an oversteer machine when pushed past the limit. Hold it at the limit, and you can bring the rear end back in line with your left foot on the brake. What fun!

Swing axle Corvairs drive great, no doubt about it. They have a feel to them that is unlike anything else on the road, and it is good. But they are different, and if you're not used to them, there is a learning curve. The older I get, the more I realize those engineers at GM got it right in so many ways.
Thanks for the comments. Obviously based on experience.

Had considered mounting not only the spare but also the battery in the front trunk. Shifting even a small amount of weight forward is probably worth the effort - to me anyway.

Getting a feeling for any changes and taking mods step by step as you imply is the best way to end up with an enjoyable car. Most other ways involve luck; not big on luck.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:25 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:18 pm
I just found this at the other site - an update on mechanical fuel pump issues.

See http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,919076
Anecdotal, but still troubling regarding aftermarket mechanical replacement pumps.

Thanks for the link of the recent thread.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:29 pm

bbodie52 wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:53 am
1962-69 FUEL PUMP REBUILD KITS ARE NOT AVAILABLE.

I have found the Corvair mechanical fuel pumps to be very reliable (I have yet to have one fail, and I have been around Corvairs since 1961). Since they are unique in design for Corvairs only, keeping a spare mechanical fuel pump in the trunk might be wise, since they are unlikely to be in stock at most auto parts stores and having a spare on-hand can make a relatively simple roadside repair possible.

The Airtex and Facet electric fuel pumps previously mentioned are also of high quality and highly reliable. They are electromechanical in nature and can still fail. The installation of an electric fuel pump adds some complexity to your fuel system, and pressurizes the fuel line all the way from the fuel tank to the engine compartment (electric fuel pumps are generally designed to be installed close to the fuel source, and do not function very well if they are installed a long distance from the fuel tank). A safety switch should be included in the installation so that electrical power to the fuel pump will be cut if the engine dies (switch triggered by engine oil pressure). A fuel filter at the electric fuel pump inlet is also a good idea.

I have included a couple of mechanical fuel pump sources and electric fuel pump sources for comparison pricing, as shown below. An electric safety switch is also included…

ImageImage
:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=65
Image

Part number C3403: NON-GM FUEL PUMP-62-69 WILL FIT 60-61 IF ORDER C259 ROD

Weight: 2 lbs 4 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 65
Price:
1 - 1 $ 59.10
2+ $ 57.35


Part number C3403A: 62-69 FUEL PUMP REBUILD KITS ARE NOT AVAILABLE

Weight: 2 lbs 4 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 65
Price:
1 - 1 $ 71.00
2+ $ 67.45


Image
Image Airtex Mechanical Fuel Pumps 4886
$39.97
:link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atx- ... oC-lfw_wcB

Image Carter Mechanical Fuel Pumps M3988
$54.97
:link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m3988/overview/

Image Airtex External Electric Fuel Pumps E8016S
$27.44
:link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atx-e8016s

Image Mr. Gasket Fuel Pump Safety Switches 7872
$20.98
:link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-7872

ADAPT-A-BOLT: For your Corvair, this special bolt replaces the stock oil filter bolt and allows you to screw in an oil pressure switch, oil temperature, or oil pressure sender unit. It is ideal to allow for the installation of electric fuel pump safety switch.
:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... N&page=27D
Part number C7521: ADAPT-A-BOLT-STOCK FILTER* IF USING W/ OIL TEMP SENDER-NEED TO DRILL ADAPTOR DEEPER

Weight: 0 lbs 6 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 27D
Price: $ 24.90

Image

Image
Image Facet Cube Style 12 Volt Fuel Pump, 3 to 4.5 max psi
Part No: FAC-40105
$48.99
:link: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... oCJ_jw_wcB
Wow Bodie,

what a good post!

Good info and good suggestion regrading the cut off switch.

All interesting and appreciated.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:36 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:21 am
The original AC DELCO pumps have not been available for some time. A company bought the unique Corvair pump design rights and the first problem was a change from the AC DELCO aluminum casting to a zinc alloy (pot) metal. The new castings were not strong enough and failures resulted in a revised design (heavier). Eventually Air-Tex and Carter (possibly others) made Corvair replacement fuel pumps. The Air-Tex units were well regarded until they moved production to Mexico and quality issues (typically the check valves were not staked in place correctly and fell out) became an issue. The Corvair community worked with Air-Tex who decided to move the production back to the U.S.A. During the last couple of years it was found the spring pressure in the Air-Tex pumps was incorrect as the pumps were putting out about 9 PSI (instead of 4-5 PSI). At that point Air-Tex supposedly halted production of the Corvair pump, but it's been reported the pumps out at vendors were NOT recalled. So even today folks report they are buying Air-Tex pumps that have excessive fuel pressure (It can be fixed by dismantling the pump and cutting the spring and re-assembling). Not sure what the status is with Air-Tex now as I (and others) gave up and went to electric fuel pumps. It has been reported that Carter is also making a Corvair fuel pump, but I have no information about it.

If you replace the mechanical fuel pump with an electric you can buy a dummy plug from Clark's to install where the mechanical fuel pump was.

About electric fuel pumps. Be aware that Carter makes an electric fuel pump that looks identical to the Air-Tex electric unit, BUT it's LOUD in operation. I confirmed this myself.
On the link from Bodie it seems even Clark's acknowledges a small but significant pump failure rate.

Thanks for the heads up on the plug and the loud pump.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:55 pm

I mounted the battery in the trunk of my Corvairs. Both have A/C so the more weight moved from the rear to the front the better, but it is LOT of work and expense (the price of the quality cables is $$$$$$). I'd suggest getting the car sorted out first, which will take some time and $$$ and then after a few years you can get involved in expensive and time consuming efforts that make things a little better, but you do just for fun.

64powerglide
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 64powerglide » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:37 pm

I bought a NAPA fuel pump 4/15/2013 for my 64 & it's still going without any problems. Including tax, $50.34. It's 15 GPH 5 &1/2 to 7 PSI & my carbs are just fine, the acceleration response is instant at any speed but I keep it 70 & under.
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bbodie52
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:17 pm

:dontknow:

There are good arguments for both electric and mechanical fuel pumps. Mechanical fuel pumps that have been in-service for a long time seem to last forever. Good replacements are hard to come by. A brand-new pump that is purchased as a spare and stored in the trunk might very well be defective on the day you install it, since it is untested and quality control in the manufacturing of these pumps is questionable.

Good quality electric fuel pumps are available — but converting your fuel system and associated plumbing to support an electric fuel pump installation can be somewhat complicated and pricey.

Perhaps one somewhat economical solution is to buy a spare mechanical pump, when your current mechanical pump that is in-service is functioning well. But if you do buy a spare to back up a perfectly serviceable mechanical pump, it might be advisable to take the serviceable pump that is a proven unit — a known quantity — and remove it from service. Install your new backup pump in its place when you receive it. Put the good used pump in the box and store it in the trunk, to serve as your spare fuel pump.

Be sure to test the new pump for fuel volume delivery and pressure, as outlined in the shop manual. If you discover a problem with fuel pressure or fuel volume, deal with it immediately. Poor fuel volume can be caused by an air leak at some point in the feed line between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. If the new pump delivers too much pressure, replacing or modifying the spring, as mentioned earlier, may be necessary. Alternately a fuel pressure regulator may be added to the fuel distribution system. In the end you will have a known quality used but serviceable fuel pump in the trunk to serve as a spare, and your investment in a new pump will be placed into service immediately to confirm that it is of good quality and fully serviceable. It is probably unwise to buy a spare pump and never test it — since you will be gambling on unknown quality control by the manufacturer.
Brad Bodie
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Ecklund
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:48 pm

64powerglide wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:37 pm
I bought a NAPA fuel pump 4/15/2013 for my 64 & it's still going without any problems. Including tax, $50.34. It's 15 GPH 5 &1/2 to 7 PSI & my carbs are just fine, the acceleration response is instant at any speed but I keep it 70 & under.
Clark's has two from different sources. Is the NAPA pump simply a rebox of one of those two pumps or is it pump unique to NAPA?

BTW, thanks for posting the pic of your black coupe. For a car designed as an economy car it certainly has a sharp sophisticated appearance; especially in black. Nice car.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:58 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:55 pm
I mounted the battery in the trunk of my Corvairs. Both have A/C so the more weight moved from the rear to the front the better, but it is LOT of work and expense (the price of the quality cables is $$$$$$). I'd suggest getting the car sorted out first, which will take some time and $$$ and then after a few years you can get involved in expensive and time consuming efforts that make things a little better, but you do just for fun.
What was your take on the effect of moving the spare and battery forward? Sounds like it may have had a smallish effect.

I did a similar mod on a 1970 Mopar A-body. Probably worth the effort but not a game changer.

From my side doing these kinds of mods IS part of the fun.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:06 pm

bbodie52 wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:17 pm
:dontknow:

There are good arguments for both electric and mechanical fuel pumps. Mechanical fuel pumps that have been in-service for a long time seem to last forever. Good replacements are hard to come by. A brand-new pump that is purchased as a spare and stored in the trunk might very well be defective on the day you install it, since it is untested and quality control in the manufacturing of these pumps is questionable.

Good quality electric fuel pumps are available — but converting your fuel system and associated plumbing to support an electric fuel pump installation can be somewhat complicated and pricey.

Perhaps one somewhat economical solution is to buy a spare mechanical pump, when your current mechanical pump that is in-service is functioning well. But if you do buy a spare to back up a perfectly serviceable mechanical pump, it might be advisable to take the serviceable pump that is a proven unit — a known quantity — and remove it from service. Install your new backup pump in its place when you receive it. Put the good used pump in the box and store it in the trunk, to serve as your spare fuel pump.

Be sure to test the new pump for fuel volume delivery and pressure, as outlined in the shop manual. If you discover a problem with fuel pressure or fuel volume, deal with it immediately. Poor fuel volume can be caused by an air leak at some point in the feed line between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. If the new pump delivers too much pressure, replacing or modifying the spring, as mentioned earlier, may be necessary. Alternately a fuel pressure regulator may be added to the fuel distribution system. In the end you will have a known quality used but serviceable fuel pump in the trunk to serve as a spare, and your investment in a new pump will be placed into service immediately to confirm that it is of good quality and fully serviceable. It is probably unwise to buy a spare pump and never test it — since you will be gambling on unknown quality control by the manufacturer.
For the '64 900 I may be finding out how an electric pump works out.

For the '63 700 it is disappointing there are no rebuild kits for the fuel pumps. The original pump, even with only 34K miles, is very likely non-functional after sitting for so long. I guess I'll take your advice and order two pumps, one of each brand and see which one is more stock appearing.
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by bbodie52 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:25 am

There is no reason to assume that the old pump is bad just because it has been sitting unused. TEST IT using the procedures in the shop manual. Also inspect/replace the two short rubber fuel lines in the feed line from the tank. If the fuel and tank are old, drain the tank and inspect its condition. If there is a fuel inlet filter inside the tank, inspect/replace it. If your existing pump tests OK, buy one spare, retire the original (good) pump to duty as a serviceable spare, and test your new pump for proper operation. If it tests OK, you can keep the new pump in service as your new primary pump.

In the end, your entire fuel supply system will be a serviceable, tested, and inspected known quantity and you will have a tested/verified spare as well, while only expending some labor and minimizing your parts costs.
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 64powerglide » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:38 am

Here is a NAPA link. It should come up to fuel pumps. It is made by Airtex!!
https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?te ... m-savedveh
Last edited by 64powerglide on Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:17 am

bbodie52 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:25 am
There is no reason to assume that the old pump is bad just because it has been sitting unused. TEST IT using the procedures in the shop manual. Also inspect/replace the two short rubber fuel lines in the feed line from the tank. If the fuel and tank are old, drain the tank and inspect its condition. If there is a fuel inlet filter inside the tank, inspect/replace it. If your existing pump tests OK, buy one spare, retire the original (good) pump to duty as a serviceable spare, and test your new pump for proper operation. If it tests OK, you can keep the new pump in service as your new primary pump.

In the end, your entire fuel supply system will be a serviceable, tested, and inspected known quantity and you will have a tested/verified spare as well, while only expending some labor and minimizing your parts costs.
Very reasonable and a good suggestion. Will do on the '63 700.

Would very much like to save the original pump. If it works I can do as you suggest and set it aside and use an aftermarket pump until I 'need' the original one.

Would have thought one of the Corvair vendors would have sourced the parts for a pump rebuild kit. A diaphragm and a gasket maybe? what else?

Thanks again.
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by bbodie52 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:55 am

I discovered this post on another Corvair website this morning. It further adds to the mechanical fuel pump confusion/frustration...

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:link: http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,900388
Lon Wall wrote:Date: December 06, 2016 11:09AM

END OF AN ERA? Fuel pumps
Posted by: corvairunderground ()

I see that there is considerable discussion elsewhere about the latest in mechanical fuel pumps.
For the past 25 years we've had a reliable supplier for these pumps. While "everyone" else seemed to constantly complain of pump problems we could confidently state that if you bought one of our pumps you'd have no problems.
Maybe not any more.

My 64 Greenbrier sat for about 2 years until I got it going again. When I did the old pump leaked. It was fine before but I figured that sitting and drying out may have done it in. No problem I thought, I'd just put in one of new ones off the shelf from a recent batch I got delivered to me.
My level of concern was immediate when I looked at the new pump and noticed that several identifying features I was used to were not present. Since i didn't have any other options I installed the pump.
Less than 3000 miles of driving it started to leak. Upon closer inspection it was REALLY spewing out gas from the hole in the top. What I ended up doing was stealing an older pump off of my pickup. It works fine.

I disassembled the bad "new" pump and found - nothing. I must assume that there is a swedging problem with the shaft-to-diaphragm as there appears to be no leaks in the diaphragm itself. I also noted that several important manufacturing features were not found in this pump - another bad sign.

My supplier says that when the original (correct) manufacturer has pumps again he will let me know. Right now I'm not optimistic. If you're one of the lucky ones who still has one of our fuel pumps "on the shelf" (bought from us prior to 4 weeks ago) HOLD ON TO THEM! They may be the last good mechanical pumps we'll see.

If this situation changes I'll let you know.


Lon Wall
www.corvairunderground.com
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Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:23 am

Ecklund - If your newer purchase has the original AC DELCO pump you should definitely keep it. No there are no rebuild kits, BUT that doesn't mean you can't experiment and take the diaphram out of a new pump and use it in a AC DELCO pump - IF that's whats in your car.

Brad made a good point about the old pump possibly being O.K. Contrary to popular myth - tests show the rubber fuel compounds from the 60's are NOT susceptible to ethanol damage. In Fact it was a change to less expensive parts in the 70's that have problems. So old rebuild kits from the 70's are basically junk. In the 1980's ethanol gasoline blends forced the use of better (more expensive) rubber compounds. Oh, in spite of all the hysteria around ethanol ruining cars - it was actually first used in the U.S.A during the 1920's and 30's without issue because gasoline was expensive then. It was also used during WWII as an octane booster. It's nothing new.

BTW - Companies STILL make/sell cheap fuel hose that will fall apart due to ethanol!!! Buy a good fuel hose like GATES BARRICADE rated for all fuels sold now. I'd add a inline METAL fuel filter canister where the rubber hose is - either up front or in back. NEVER - use rubber fuel hose INSIDE the engine compartment. If/when the fan belt comes off it can rip/break a rubber fuel hose. That's why NO production Corvair had a rubber fuel hose INSIDE the engine compartment.

How much difference does moving the tire and battery make? Look up the factory front rear axle loading weight (check to see if it includes fuel in the tank). Then you calculate a percentage for front/rear. Now add your weight (you want the balance value for when you're driving) and subtract the weight of the battery and tire FROM the rear, then ADD it to the front. If you know someone who flies small airplanes they can explain calculating load weight and balance - called MOMENT from DATUM POINT. Basically the further the weight from the center reference point the more impact it has on polar moment of inertial in a turn.

I also replaced the GM Frigidaire A/C compressor with a Sanden - that took about 30lbs. off the rear. Because the compressor is near the back of the car removing 30lbs that far back has in impact on handling. Same with the spare tire as it sits BEHIND the rear axle centerline. Oh - in 1960 the spare tire WAS in the trunk. GM moved it to the rear and bumped out the front trunk panel so they could say they had more trunk room to compete with Falcon (FORD and GM ran a lot of negative ads about the competitors short comings - the Corvair engine was bumped from 140 c.i. to 145 c.i. so GM could say the Corvair had the bigger engine as the Falcon had a 144 c.i. engine).

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