1964 four door automatic project by remote

Show of your ride, keep track of your project, watch as others progress on their projects
Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:31 am

bbodie52 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:55 am
I discovered this post on another Corvair website this morning. It further adds to the mechanical fuel pump confusion/frustration...

Image
:link: http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,900388
Lon Wall wrote:Date: December 06, 2016 11:09AM

END OF AN ERA? Fuel pumps
Posted by: corvairunderground ()

I see that there is considerable discussion elsewhere about the latest in mechanical fuel pumps.
For the past 25 years we've had a reliable supplier for these pumps. While "everyone" else seemed to constantly complain of pump problems we could confidently state that if you bought one of our pumps you'd have no problems.
Maybe not any more.

My 64 Greenbrier sat for about 2 years until I got it going again. When I did the old pump leaked. It was fine before but I figured that sitting and drying out may have done it in. No problem I thought, I'd just put in one of new ones off the shelf from a recent batch I got delivered to me.
My level of concern was immediate when I looked at the new pump and noticed that several identifying features I was used to were not present. Since i didn't have any other options I installed the pump.
Less than 3000 miles of driving it started to leak. Upon closer inspection it was REALLY spewing out gas from the hole in the top. What I ended up doing was stealing an older pump off of my pickup. It works fine.

I disassembled the bad "new" pump and found - nothing. I must assume that there is a swedging problem with the shaft-to-diaphragm as there appears to be no leaks in the diaphragm itself. I also noted that several important manufacturing features were not found in this pump - another bad sign.

My supplier says that when the original (correct) manufacturer has pumps again he will let me know. Right now I'm not optimistic. If you're one of the lucky ones who still has one of our fuel pumps "on the shelf" (bought from us prior to 4 weeks ago) HOLD ON TO THEM! They may be the last good mechanical pumps we'll see.

If this situation changes I'll let you know.


Lon Wall
www.corvairunderground.com
ImageImageImageImage
Image
ImageImageImage
Got me brother...

At least there is a reasonable alternative.

I still say this is exactly the kind of component that is well suited to be 'rebuilt'. There are a range of Corvair vendors and they are all pretty sharp folks. Don't see why they can't source/develop a solid rebuild kit. A dedicated diaphragm and a gasket? Or is there more to it?
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:55 am

66vairguy wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:23 am
Ecklund - If your newer purchase has the original AC DELCO pump you should definitely keep it. No there are no rebuild kits, BUT that doesn't mean you can't experiment and take the diaphram out of a new pump and use it in a AC DELCO pump - IF that's whats in your car.

Brad made a good point about the old pump possibly being O.K. Contrary to popular myth - tests show the rubber fuel compounds from the 60's are NOT susceptible to ethanol damage. In Fact it was a change to less expensive parts in the 70's that have problems. So old rebuild kits from the 70's are basically junk. In the 1980's ethanol gasoline blends forced the use of better (more expensive) rubber compounds. Oh, in spite of all the hysteria around ethanol ruining cars - it was actually first used in the U.S.A during the 1920's and 30's without issue because gasoline was expensive then. It was also used during WWII as an octane booster. It's nothing new.

BTW - Companies STILL make/sell cheap fuel hose that will fall apart due to ethanol!!! Buy a good fuel hose like GATES BARRICADE rated for all fuels sold now. I'd add a inline METAL fuel filter canister where the rubber hose is - either up front or in back. NEVER - use rubber fuel hose INSIDE the engine compartment. If/when the fan belt comes off it can rip/break a rubber fuel hose. That's why NO production Corvair had a rubber fuel hose INSIDE the engine compartment.

How much difference does moving the tire and battery make? Look up the factory front rear axle loading weight (check to see if it includes fuel in the tank). Then you calculate a percentage for front/rear. Now add your weight (you want the balance value for when you're driving) and subtract the weight of the battery and tire FROM the rear, then ADD it to the front. If you know someone who flies small airplanes they can explain calculating load weight and balance - called MOMENT from DATUM POINT. Basically the further the weight from the center reference point the more impact it has on polar moment of inertial in a turn.

I also replaced the GM Frigidaire A/C compressor with a Sanden - that took about 30lbs. off the rear. Because the compressor is near the back of the car removing 30lbs that far back has in impact on handling. Same with the spare tire as it sits BEHIND the rear axle centerline. Oh - in 1960 the spare tire WAS in the trunk. GM moved it to the rear and bumped out the front trunk panel so they could say they had more trunk room to compete with Falcon (FORD and GM ran a lot of negative ads about the competitors short comings - the Corvair engine was bumped from 140 c.i. to 145 c.i. so GM could say the Corvair had the bigger engine as the Falcon had a 144 c.i. engine).
:goodpost:

Excellent thought on swapping out the diaphragm if necessary.

Also well said about the pumps possibly still being functional. Its more likely that the '64 with 115K plus miles had a replacement pump at some point. The '63 with 34K may still have the original pump or even a AC replacement pump.

Yeah, not really convinced the AG based alc we burn in gas does much of what its intended to do. Unlikely to reduce Co2 and distorts the price of corn. But it is what it is. Well said about cheap hose not being worth the effort.

Saw the fuel line connections in the engine bay but just thought it was a fuel control thing. Learned something else here about the reason behind the hard fuel lines and the belt coming off.

Yeah, the better answer would be to remove weight from an area, instead of moving it around, to get a desired effect. But as I have to have a battery and like to have a spare, to the front they go.

I saw the Sanden, or even Japanese, type A/C compressor swaps on other cars. But 30 lbs, wow. Didn't know it was that much.

How much savings for a generator to an alternator swap?

Has anyone mounted the A/C evaporator someplace at the front of an EM car?

Love the 140 to 145 just to be able to say it was 'larger' than the falcon motor.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

User avatar
Swngaxl
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Swngaxl » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:45 am

Ecklund wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:55 am

Yeah, the better answer would be to remove weight from an area, instead of moving it around, to get a desired effect. But as I have to have a battery and like to have a spare, to the front they go.
Again, just my 2 cents worth, but I would recommend keeping the battery in the back for a while, and move later if you want. Same for the spare tire bracket. I say this, again, based on experience:

Once had a rare failure in my car, ignition switch shorted out. It was a very cold morning, went to start the car, it wouldn't start. Heard a high pitched whine, electrics went dead, starter stopped turning, smelled smoke, and said "Uh oh" or something to that effect. Turned the ignition off, it stayed on, said "UH OH!" again. Ran to the back of the car, threw open the hood, grabbed the negative battery cable. It was limp as a wet noodle in the cold weather, almost too warm to hold. Yanked it off the battery before the fire started. Later I found the problem with the ignition switch, it melted the plastic connector off the wiring harness. Point here is if the battery had been in the trunk, it would have taken a little longer to get to it. Problem was not the battery, or the cables, but something that had performed flawlessly for many years and never given a hint of trouble. So would having the battery in the trunk have made a difference? Don't know. Worth taking the chance? Don't know either, but not for me unless it was a race car.

Other, I kept my spare in the trunk for many years. Real easy to do, it sits in there just fine and don't need a bracket to hold it down. But later, when I started taking more overnight trips in the car with someone besides just me, I learned it was pretty handy to have a trunk. So I found the old spare bracket, put it back in, and had a nice place to put the spare to give me some trunk space on trips. Handling still acceptable, because I ain't doing no spirited driving with a trunk full of luggage. Point here is it is nice to have the option. Especially if going to a convention with kids and family, real handy to have the storage space available when you need it.

You're gonna love this thing!
Phil

64 Spyder convertible

66vairguy
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:19 am

Ecklund - I have to agree with Swngaxl that moving the battery is a major effort and cost for a minor gain - I'm an electrical guy and I did it for fun and eventually you can attempt it. You have a lot of other stuff to do. Just move the spare to the front for now.

Yes folks put the A/C condenser up front, but you have to cut a big hole in the bottom of the trunk - and of course now the spare has no place up front (you also can't have an A/C compressor and a spare tire in back - at least on LM cars). Folks move the A/C condenser to the front for an easier installation and engine maintenance, not to move weight. Of course then you have no trunk to put things. I have 66 cars and they have a nice condenser up off the engine on the rear bulkhead. On the EM cars I think it is Clark's that sells a nice kit to mount the condenser on the engine lid so when you open the lid you can access the engine. Otherwise the stock EM and 65 cars require the A/C condenser to be removed off the top of the engine to access the engine - PITA!

Yes the Frigidaire compressor was HEAVY, but it was a good unit for it's time. Note the Corvair had a unique reverse rotation Frigidaire compressor. Some claim it had a lower compression ration to reduce load, not sure about that. Scarce now and most folks go with the Sanden compressor.

Installing an alternator in an EM car is a very common swap. Saves a little weight. Also you can upgrade the Corvair 10DN externally regulated alternator by installing a 10SI rear section and you end up with a modern internally regulated alternator and it's simpler to wire in. DO NOT GET TALKED INTO A "ONE WIRE" alternator setup. Don't work well, as I've had to fix a few of those kludges for buddies. NOTE: you must replace the mounting casting (with the oil filler pipe and fuel pump hole) to the alternator type to get a correct alignment. Folks try to kludge the generator mount, but it typically ends up causing fan belts to come off frequently. Due to all the conversions the alternator mounts are now hard to find - keep your eye out for one if that's what you want.

BTW - Nothing wrong with a generator setup and I would keep it in your other "original" car.

One of these days you are going to drive your Corvair at night and ask here - why are the lights so dim? More on that when you are ready. You can make a good improvement for minor money, or spend a ton of money on the latest tech.

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:56 am

Swngaxl wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:45 am
Ecklund wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:55 am

Yeah, the better answer would be to remove weight from an area, instead of moving it around, to get a desired effect. But as I have to have a battery and like to have a spare, to the front they go.
Again, just my 2 cents worth, but I would recommend keeping the battery in the back for a while, and move later if you want. Same for the spare tire bracket. I say this, again, based on experience:

Once had a rare failure in my car, ignition switch shorted out. It was a very cold morning, went to start the car, it wouldn't start. Heard a high pitched whine, electrics went dead, starter stopped turning, smelled smoke, and said "Uh oh" or something to that effect. Turned the ignition off, it stayed on, said "UH OH!" again. Ran to the back of the car, threw open the hood, grabbed the negative battery cable. It was limp as a wet noodle in the cold weather, almost too warm to hold. Yanked it off the battery before the fire started. Later I found the problem with the ignition switch, it melted the plastic connector off the wiring harness. Point here is if the battery had been in the trunk, it would have taken a little longer to get to it. Problem was not the battery, or the cables, but something that had performed flawlessly for many years and never given a hint of trouble. So would having the battery in the trunk have made a difference? Don't know. Worth taking the chance? Don't know either, but not for me unless it was a race car.

Other, I kept my spare in the trunk for many years. Real easy to do, it sits in there just fine and don't need a bracket to hold it down. But later, when I started taking more overnight trips in the car with someone besides just me, I learned it was pretty handy to have a trunk. So I found the old spare bracket, put it back in, and had a nice place to put the spare to give me some trunk space on trips. Handling still acceptable, because I ain't doing no spirited driving with a trunk full of luggage. Point here is it is nice to have the option. Especially if going to a convention with kids and family, real handy to have the storage space available when you need it.

You're gonna love this thing!
Both of your scenarios are well taken.

Your quick thinking and actions probably prevented a fire that would have been difficult to put out.

Retaining cargo space for a general use car is very useful too.

From my side, for most things is life, its mostly an issue of the possible benefit outweighing the expense, time and effort of any particular decision/activity.

The '63 I hope to keep not only stock, but as original as possible. The '64... eh, probably willing to live with certain compromises to improve a few characteristics.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:09 am

66vairguy wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:19 am
Ecklund - I have to agree with Swngaxl that moving the battery is a major effort and cost for a minor gain - I'm an electrical guy and I did it for fun and eventually you can attempt it. You have a lot of other stuff to do. Just move the spare to the front for now.

Yes folks put the A/C condenser up front, but you have to cut a big hole in the bottom of the trunk - and of course now the spare has no place up front (you also can't have an A/C compressor and a spare tire in back - at least on LM cars). Folks move the A/C condenser to the front for an easier installation and engine maintenance, not to move weight. Of course then you have no trunk to put things. I have 66 cars and they have a nice condenser up off the engine on the rear bulkhead. On the EM cars I think it is Clark's that sells a nice kit to mount the condenser on the engine lid so when you open the lid you can access the engine. Otherwise the stock EM and 65 cars require the A/C condenser to be removed off the top of the engine to access the engine - PITA!

Yes the Frigidaire compressor was HEAVY, but it was a good unit for it's time. Note the Corvair had a unique reverse rotation Frigidaire compressor. Some claim it had a lower compression ration to reduce load, not sure about that. Scarce now and most folks go with the Sanden compressor.

Installing an alternator in an EM car is a very common swap. Saves a little weight. Also you can upgrade the Corvair 10DN externally regulated alternator by installing a 10SI rear section and you end up with a modern internally regulated alternator and it's simpler to wire in. DO NOT GET TALKED INTO A "ONE WIRE" alternator setup. Don't work well, as I've had to fix a few of those kludges for buddies. NOTE: you must replace the mounting casting (with the oil filler pipe and fuel pump hole) to the alternator type to get a correct alignment. Folks try to kludge the generator mount, but it typically ends up causing fan belts to come off frequently. Due to all the conversions the alternator mounts are now hard to find - keep your eye out for one if that's what you want.

BTW - Nothing wrong with a generator setup and I would keep it in your other "original" car.

One of these days you are going to drive your Corvair at night and ask here - why are the lights so dim? More on that when you are ready. You can make a good improvement for minor money, or spend a ton of money on the latest tech.
Sounds very reasonable.

Agreed, going to run the thing as much as possible as is when I pick it up in late April when I'm back on leave.

That Clark's EM condenser that mounts on the inside of the trunk lid that you mention does sound interesting. Obviously there is some additional heat load on the engine and the additional weight of the condenser in the rear. Still, a clean install and can get to the engine easily.

I'll need to do some actual measurements but from the pics and other info I could find a spare can be carried on the trunk of an EM along with a floor mounted A/C condenser. The spare rests horizontally above the condenser on some sort of platform between the wheel wells.

After I saw that I thought what if there was enough room on the floor of the trunk to mount the condenser at the front edge of the floor and the battery box at the back edge.

This is why I need to do some actual measurements. Condensers come in many shapes and sizes. And cooling fans also come in a number of diameters. Would need to figure out where to cut some openings in the trunk to get enough air in there to cool the condenser. Saw one A/C setup online that used a outdoor house A/C enclosure door as a shield under the car that covered the trunk floor hole for the condenser. Cheap and effective.

Also I may need to find a 'donut' type spare with a reduced width to lay horizontally over the battery and condenser so the trunk lid would close.

Even with the addition of an A/C system weight on the rear, the 'donut' spare, battery and condenser could live in the trunk and that might be close to 100 lbs moved from the back of the car to the front.

And since there is no compressor at all now I could use a lighter modern one and save that weight off the rear end too.

As I don't know why a one wire alternator is bad I will follow your advice and avoid that pitfall on the '64. Will also look to avoid the incorrect ways of mounting it as you describe. The last thing I need is to make MORE likely that the engine will throw fan belts while driving. And the alternator saves a bit more weight over the generator off the back of the car.

For the '63, agreed, original stuff. Even if the generator is bad I'll have it rebuilt to keep the original part.

Agreed in general about driving the car and doing mods as I go. Even if I wanted to do everything I planned at one time it wouldn't happen just for practical issues like being away for months at a time.

The goal with the '64 is to have a reliable anytime driver with enhanced power and handling envelope. Small changes like a few poly suspension bushings, bigger front and rear sway bars, shocks with a bit more damping, a quicker ratio steering box, 15 wheels and tires, I'll live with the drum brakes and see how it goes as they are getting a complete rehab, new stock rate '64 specific springs front and rear, we'll see how the front sits with all that junk in the trunk, A/C, when the engine needs a rebuild, and that will likely be sooner than later, an increase to 3.3l with a 270 cam and Brown's FI.

Oh, and probably a 'tall driver' seat bracket.

I have made these kinds of changes before to older cars and they simply make the car much more useful..., for me. And IMHO these mods would enhance the Corvair's natural positive attributes and mitigate some of its negative characteristics without changing the basic nature of the car.

I did a battery battery move to the trunk on a 70/71 Mopar A-body. You are right of course, it was a lot of work and expense for very little benefit. But as I am adding A/C to the rear and the Corvair is much lighter than even an A-body, I think it is reasonable to expect a bit more beneficial effect with the Corvair.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:48 pm

O.K. then you know how to move the battery, that's good, not a project for a novice.

The "one wire" alternator is nothing more than the standard 10si unit with a "kludged" circuit board. The internally regulated 10SI has three connections 1. Output to the battery and car system. 2. A "sense line" that you want near the battery - it tells the alternator what voltage to put out for optimal battery performance (you get voltage losses in wiring so you want the sense line close to the batter "+" post). 3. The wire to the "FAN/GEN" warning lamp in the dash - VERY important as it tells you when a fan belt breaks and you must stop a Corvair engine ASAP when that happens. By the time the overtemp warning lamp comes on the engine heads can suffer damage - not good. Make sure you use the Corvair "unique" alternator cooling fan. It is a reverse rotation fan. Air is pulled in the BACK of the alternator and expelled out the front. A standard Chevy alternator fan will reduce cooling, yes folks say it "worked O.K. for me" but only at low amperage outputs. The correct fan cools the alternator much better and is design spec'd to handle the heat from 80Amps (10SI puts out 63Amps peak).

Oh - nobody does this - BEFORE you start a Corvair turn the key to "ON" and make sure the warning lamps illuminate - very sad when a engine is ruined because a warning lamp bulb was not working.

Just my opinion, but please don't use an add-on rear sway bar on a 64. Talk to the folks who race these cars. Keep the standard leaf spring setup and if necessary you can go with HD springs. Installing an add-on rear sway bar will upset the suspension dynamics, especially for a street car. You'll end up with "snap" oversteer at the limit and a trip into the weeds instead of progressive oversteer you can counter with steering input (if you take some lessons).

66vairguy
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:24 pm

Eklund - here's an interesting post on Corvair handling see - http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,919720

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:51 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:48 pm
O.K. then you know how to move the battery, that's good, not a project for a novice.

The "one wire" alternator is nothing more than the standard 10si unit with a "kludged" circuit board. The internally regulated 10SI has three connections 1. Output to the battery and car system. 2. A "sense line" that you want near the battery - it tells the alternator what voltage to put out for optimal battery performance (you get voltage losses in wiring so you want the sense line close to the batter "+" post). 3. The wire to the "FAN/GEN" warning lamp in the dash - VERY important as it tells you when a fan belt breaks and you must stop a Corvair engine ASAP when that happens. By the time the overtemp warning lamp comes on the engine heads can suffer damage - not good. Make sure you use the Corvair "unique" alternator cooling fan. It is a reverse rotation fan. Air is pulled in the BACK of the alternator and expelled out the front. A standard Chevy alternator fan will reduce cooling, yes folks say it "worked O.K. for me" but only at low amperage outputs. The correct fan cools the alternator much better and is design spec'd to handle the heat from 80Amps (10SI puts out 63Amps peak).

Oh - nobody does this - BEFORE you start a Corvair turn the key to "ON" and make sure the warning lamps illuminate - very sad when a engine is ruined because a warning lamp bulb was not working.

Just my opinion, but please don't use an add-on rear sway bar on a 64. Talk to the folks who race these cars. Keep the standard leaf spring setup and if necessary you can go with HD springs. Installing an add-on rear sway bar will upset the suspension dynamics, especially for a street car. You'll end up with "snap" oversteer at the limit and a trip into the weeds instead of progressive oversteer you can counter with steering input (if you take some lessons).
Nice. Learn something every time.

I never even heard of a reverse rotation fan on an alternator. Will get the right alternator and mounting bracket.

Thanks for the explanation of the wire that signals to the alternator for output. Makes more sense now.

Agreed that the '64 transverse spring adds some unknowns to the equation. Some say it actually increases the roll of the car as it behaves like a pivot point in the center of the car. Not sure I buy that but if it does have an antiroll effect is it linear or does it spike toward the end of its travel.

Also not even sure a rear bar will fit with transverse spring.

If it doesn't I might consider standard rate, non-'64, rear springs. HD springs would be too stiff for a street car. Even standard rate springs would degrade the ride some. Without the need to control the car at very high speeds there's no reason for stiffer springs. Thats why I'm leaning toward using new stock '64 springs and tuning the roll coupling with anti-roll bars. If they work on a '64...

Guess we'll find out.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:34 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:24 pm
Eklund - here's an interesting post on Corvair handling see - http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,919720
Some cars with certain setups lift one wheel or the other in some corners. It may be unavoidable but it is not preferred.

The notion that body lean is OK as it is a sign of 'good' weight transfer is exactly opposite of a suspension design and implementation.

The tire contact patch is so small that it can easily be overcome even at relatively low street speeds. One goal of suspension design is to attempt to utilize all four tire contact patches as much as possible.

For street cars there are other factors/constraints for suspension designers. Typical driver ability, cost and ride comfort are a few.

Skid pad numbers started to jump up by the mid '80s because they focused on managing the weight transfer and utilize the contact patch of all four tires more effectively.

On its face the rear transverse spring in a '64 is simply a device that keeps the inside wheel from dropping too far in severe cornering. It also adds to the total rear wheel spring rate. It may or may not add to the total anti-roll of the rear of the car. It seems like a rear anti-roll bar could be added like any other car.

However, coil springs, even progressive springs, are fairly consistent throughout their travel. I don't know if the transverse spring has a rate spike toward the end of its travel that may induce a unsettling shock and cause a snap spin as you mention.

Also, as mentioned, I'm not even sure a rear bar would clear the transverse spring.

As 911 cars have had to deal with a similar challenge of a rear mounted engine while striving for balanced and sporty handling, it may be instructive to review Porsche's take on body roll and its impact on suspension design. Not that they have all the answers, but interesting choices with a similar layout.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:30 am

Keep in mind the inside front wheel lift is ONLY at the extreme and it is a good thing. In a rear engine car (rear weight bias) it is preferred to have the front end loose tire contact area (traction) before the rear losses traction. NO MATTER WHAT ONE DOES A CAR CAN ALWAYS BE PUSHED TO LOSING TRACTION in spite of the best design. The point is to design a system the losses traction in a predictable and manageable way - or YES you do want a tire(s) to loose contact in a predictable way at the LIMIT. That limit is up to the driver. On reason modern cars handle so well - COMPUTERS. They literally manage throttle and brake input to keep folks from exceeding the vehicles limits. Mercedes calls it "Driver Preservation Management".

The Corvair 64 rear leaf spring setup "CHANGED" the rear roll center to improve handling. Roll center is complex and front and rear have to work in harmony. Not sure why you insist on using NON 64 rear spring instead of the time proven 64 rear springs that were revised to work WITH the leaf spring.

Good luck.

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:07 pm

Computer aided handling assist is a fairly recent thing. Skid pad numbers jumped in the mid eighties in part because car companies focused more on spreading the load among all four tires with, among other things, devices like bigger front and rear sway bars. Tires were getting much better too.

While lifting a wheel in rear engine cars in racing applications may be a necessity it is not ideal. Loosing 25% of your potential total contact area in a corner when you need it most is tough.

No, far from it. I would much prefer the good ride of the stock springs and just limit the body roll with anti-roll bars. However I still need to confirm how the '64 transverse spring behaves at its travel limit and if a rear bar would even fit a '64 with the transverse spring.

The fact that GM installed it that way or that it is a time 'proven' combination are simply starting points. According to some of the Corvair history crowd it seems clear that GM left off a front way bar and resisted the rear transverse spring for purely cost reasons. Considering springs rates, shock damping, anti-roll bars, tire choice and weight distribution to achieve a modestly more balanced handling car is completely reasonable. And a part of the old car hobby that I really enjoy.
Last edited by Ecklund on Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:20 pm

I found Bryan Blackwells "AUTOCROSS" page. He is experienced and keep in mind most of his advice is for LM cars set up for Autocross at the sacrifice of street driving.

He did make a couple of good observations about EM cars, ones that I think will back up my argument to use the STOCK 64 rear springs (on your 64), NOT the stiffer/taller 63 and earlier rear springs.

Per Bryan: "Early models can use the stiffer springs up front, but the ideal solution in the rear would use the soft coils and add stiffness only with the rear leaf. " and " For early models, the front sway bar setup is essentially the same as the late. You can use a stock bar, including a late one, on the front or you can install an aftermarket one. A rear sway bar is generally a bad idea - with a swing axle suspension it's often best to keep the rear roll resistance as low as possible."

NOTE: The 65 and later front sway bar has a larger diameter, more roll resistance, compared to the EM front sway bars. I know of an article were a fellow used the front 65 suspension on an EM wagon (that originally had no front sway bar) and kept the rear suspension stock. He did keep the EM front spindles (they fit on the 65 suspension arms). He said the car handled much better (wagons were a bit heavier in the back) and he took it to an Autocross and won in his class - not bad.

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:42 pm

Agreed. I've mentioned a few times that the softer springs, especially for a street car, are preferable.

If an aftermarket front anti-roll bar is added there has to be an increase in rear roll resistance to limit understeer. If a rear bar isn't possible, not sure it will fit with the transverse spring, then other methods to add rear roll stiffness would be needed. Stiffer rear springs would be one way but with the obvious penalty of degraded ride quality.

Maybe back when Bryan wrote the book there were different '64 rear leafs that had more stiffness available. I am not aware of any that exist now. And again, an increase in the '64 total rear spring rate is not preferable.

He mentions installing an aftermarket front bar as a possibility. As the aftermarket bars typically have higher roll stiffness installing an aftermarket bar with no other changes would necessarily increase understeer where there is probably too much already.

Bryan's one interesting comment is about the rear anti-roll bar and swing axle suspensions. He states a conclusion about a rear anti-roll bar being 'bad' as its often best to keep the rear roll resistance as low as possible with swing axle suspensions. But he does not explain why this might be so.

Assuming Bryan is correct, and I have no reason to doubt his assertions, then I can see why the Sprint modded cars removed the front anti-roll bar entirely. If a rear bar did not exist then, or like Bryan they did not want to increase the rear roll resistance of the '64 swing arm suspension, then Fitch would be left with limiting understeer by other means. In the case of the Sprint car by removing the front bar and by adding rear spring rate.

It would be interesting to understand the basis for Blackwell's conclusion about not limiting the rear roll resistance of swing arm suspensions.

Adding more front roll resistance with an aftermarket front bar alone would induce significant understeer in an autocross car and make it substantially slower.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:54 am

You said : He mentions installing an aftermarket front bar as a possibility. As the aftermarket bars typically have higher roll stiffness installing an aftermarket bar with no other changes would necessarily increase understeer where there is probably too much already.

NO - Corvairs have a problem with too much OVERSTEER so yes you reduce OVERSTEER with a front sway bar.

Youd said : Bryan's one interesting comment is about the rear anti-roll bar and swing axle suspensions. He states a conclusion about a rear anti-roll bar being 'bad' as its often best to keep the rear roll resistance as low as possible with swing axle suspensions. But he does not explain why this might be so.

Keep the lower rear roll resistance is also called "protecting the driving wheel". If you use a rear sway bar then in a turn you "unload" the inside wheel so you loose traction - reducing traction in a rear heavy car is a good way to do spins, not good.

I've never heard of John Finch REMOVING a front sway bar to make the Corvair handle better. It would be interesting to know where you read that. However John did literally build cars to fit a customer's needs so there may have been a reason, certainly not a good thing for a street car.

Your car, do what you want, just don't end up like Ernie Kovacs - https://www.google.com/search?q=corvair ... yve1qazwHM:

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:55 am

https://www.corvairforum.com/forum/view ... int#p87615

Its an article on this forum. '64 Coupe. Added HD rear springs and removed front anti-roll bar.

Corvairs and other rear engine cars may have pendulum snap oversteer at the limit but like most factory cars they are set up with inherent understeer.

I'm not sure about your notion that a rear sway bar unloads the inside wheel. Less roll would leave more weight over the inside tire and unload it less.

Need to look into Blackwell's comment on rear sway bars and swing axle rear suspensions. Not even sure a rear bar would fit on a '64 with the transverse spring.

With a modestly more neutral balance, 15" wheels and tires and quicker steering the 900 should be a fun car.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Post Reply

Return to “Member's Rides, Projects, and Builds”